Am I Not Legal? Flight Review

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SkyBound

Filing Flight Plan
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Oct 18, 2017
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SkyBound
I regret going to this one school, and shame on me for not being more in charge of my logbooks, but here's the story:

I was out of the flying game for a long time, and found a local flight school to knock out the flight review and start flying again. I flew with two instructors. The first one I flew with logged .8 and he noted in the "Remarks" section - Flight Review. I flew with him the next day for an additional .6 and that was that. He then said, well you need to do the 1 hour ground, but I'll be out of town for 4 weeks, so maybe fly with Bob.

Bob agreed and I did an hour with him on the ground, but he too wanted to see me fly to be comfortable to sign-off. I did 1.6 with him, and he said you're good to go. He went to the back of my logbook and filled out the pre-written Flight Review portion that I was good. Not knowing the specifics of logging a flight review at the time, I figured cool, that was that.

After doing some recent review though, it looks like the regs require a note of the ground portion, which doesn't exist in my logbook. I have a instrument checkride coming up in a week and now am in a panic that the ground portion doesn't exist to satisfy the legality of the FR.

So I'm not entirely sure if I need a signature or what for the ground portion. I know I did it, but its technically not noted and signed as such other than a broad "_______ has satisfactory completed the flight review required by 61.56."

Both instructors have since retired so hunting for sign-off would be a no-go. Any thoughts?
 
You should be fine as long as your FR has been entered (endorsed) in your logbook as satisfactory and is current (within 24 months). I don’t make specific remarks about the one hour ground instruction requirement as that is part of the FR.
 
SkyBound said:
"_______ has satisfactory completed the flight review required by 61.56."

Both instructors have since retired so hunting for sign-off would be a no-go. Any thoughts?
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I’m having trouble passing out your paragraph. If that statement appears in your logbook, you’re good. The regulation requires both ground and air portion, so by referencing it they explicitly state you’ve done both the ground and air portions.

If not, talk to the owner of the school. His employees were the ones who filled out the log book, so he should be able to find a way to get it straightened out without you paying more.




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mscard88 said:
You should be fine as long as your FR has been entered (endorsed) in your logbook as satisfactory and is current (within 24 months). I don’t make specific remarks about the one hour ground instruction requirement as that is part of the FR.
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That's what I originally thought too but this caught my eye:

"The CFI should make the endorsement for a satisfactory review in accordance with AC 61-65. The flight and ground time must also be logged in the pilot’s logbook in accordance with § 61.51(a)(1)."

Part of AC 61-98B
 
SkyBound said:
That's what I originally thought too but this caught my eye:

"The CFI should make the endorsement for a satisfactory review in accordance with AC 61-65. The flight and ground time must also be logged in the pilot’s logbook in accordance with § 61.51(a)(1)."

Part of AC 61-98B
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Yes I’ve seen that too but IMO as long as you’re signed off Sat and endorsed you’re good to go. Besides, not your fault if the CFI didn’t mention the ground portion.

‘sigh’ :( now you’re gonna force me to include the ground portion, which I think I actually did on the last FR I did.
 
mscard88 said:
Yes I’ve seen that too but IMO as long as you’re signed off Sat and endorsed you’re good to go. Besides, not your fault if the CFI didn’t mention the ground portion.

‘sigh’ :( now you’re gonna force me to include the ground portion, which I think I actually did on the last FR I did.
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Double cover ... I have to do the on-line review and give a copy to the CFI and retain one ... then we spend an hour over breakfast going over things anyway ... sort of a pain, but I really like this CFI and he pushes emergency procedures like no one else.
 
i recently did a FR, the endorsement doesnt say ground portion explicitly...
 
An easier option, and cheaper BTW, is to do the ground portion thru the WINGS program and then log your 1 hour flying portion. Keep a record of your WINGS certification in your logbook and you are golden.
 
Easiest solution is to go dark. Skip the IR checkride, save the $$ for the DPE and rental, and stop doing flight reviews. The key will still crank the engine and if you have the mixture in and the throttle cracked you're cleared for takeoff.

Or, call your DPE and ask about the FR endorsement wording. ;)
 
labbadabba said:
An easier option, and cheaper BTW, is to do the ground portion thru the WINGS program and then log your 1 hour flying portion. Keep a record of your WINGS certification in your logbook and you are golden.
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Sorry for the drift but can u explain the WINGS program??? There have been a couple of interesting ones semi close to me that I’ve been tempted to attend but couldn’t make it.
 
Documenting ground training is something that many (most?) instructors are poor at doing, including myself. It really should be done but often gets overlooked.

I say you’re fine. I gave one guy a logbook endorsement per AC 61-65 on a piece of notebook paper because he didn’t have his logbook with him. He ended up getting in trouble and had an inspector do a logbook review, including looking at my endorsement and no questions were asked. Our flight wasn’t even really properly documented.
 
Had my FR in July of last year and the instructor did put an endorsement in the back of my logbook but didn't mention the ground he gave me. Just stated I satisfatorily completed a FR.
 
Good gosh, for almost ANY dual that I gave there was at least a half of an hour preflight discussion and a half hour post flight debrief (I never charged for that crap either.) There is you hour of ground right there!
 
k9medic said:
Good gosh, for almost ANY dual that I gave there was at least a half of an hour preflight discussion and a half hour post flight debrief (I never charged for that crap either.) There is you hour of ground right there!
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Except that in this case the ground requirements
must include:
(1) A review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 of this chapter​

That said, the requirement to log ground training in 61.189 is probably the most violated reg in the book. Personally, if a pilot's logbook has a Ground column, I fill it in. If not, I don't bother much, although i generally use a separate form when I give instruction that is much more comprehensive.

If the FAA ever bothered to be strict about this one, I'd expect it to fall on the CFI, not the pilot. As the pilot who received a FR endorsement, I would not be worried.
 
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I don’t know about the legality of the endorsement, but if Bob insisted on flying with you after another instructor at the same place had just signed you off, it’s my opinion that Bob is a crook.
 
benyflyguy said:
Sorry for the drift but can u explain the WINGS program??? There have been a couple of interesting ones semi close to me that I’ve been tempted to attend but couldn’t make it.
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Go to FAASafety.gov for details, but here's a brief summary. I've been doing these more often as an instructor, and my own FRs I've the past few years have been based on it.

The WINGS program allows a pilot to substitute a combination of three "flight credits" and three "ground credits" for a flight review. Each of the three credits are for different activity groups. The ground credits are obtained from the seminars and approved online courses.

The flight credits from recurrent flight training covering specific tasks. They can be done all in one flight (typically taking a bit more than the minimum 1 hour) or, better IMO, at different times over the course of a year.

Signing for attendance at a WINGS seminar puts the credits in your profile (assuming you created one). For the flight activities, after getting the dual, you go online, select the fligh activities you covered, and the CFI. The CFI is notified there is a request for credit pending and approved.

The system keeps track and when the requirements are met, BINGO, the system issues you a WINGS certificate and a Flight Review Certificate.

The program suffered from an unfortunate bit of over-complication, so it's best to go over it with a CFI who uses it.
 
61.51 Logbooks

a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

61.189 Flight Instructor Records

(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.

The instructor providing the ground instruction is required to log the ground instruction in your logbook although many CFIs do not. If you received a FR endorsement, drive on.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Except that in this case the ground requirements
must include:
(1) A review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 of this chapter​
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Here is the kicker, and basically what I was referring to with the comment about the pre and post flight discussion. What defines a "review?"

AC 61-98B and the FAA handout on flight reviews even provide vague references as to what is required to be discussed on a flight review.

I gave a FR on Monday to a retired airline pilot who hasn't flown in a few years. For preflight we discussed weather minimums, general airspace, checklist utilization and how to manipulate Foreflight. Post flight we discussed the importance of making radio calls at an uncontrolled airport and some minor aircraft handling items. This meets the definition of a ground review.
 
Here is the kicker, and basically what I was referring to with the comment about the pre and post flight discussion. What defines a "review?"
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Anything applicable in part 91. It's up to the instructor to determine what that is. The FAA rightfully doesn't get any more detailed. Unlike an IPC which has to follow the practical test, the flight review is just general education.
 
Stuart Fraley said:
I don’t know about the legality of the endorsement, but if Bob insisted on flying with you after another instructor at the same place had just signed you off, it’s my opinion that Bob is a crook.
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Read the OP, the original instructor did not sign him off because the ground portion had not been completed. He just signed off the instruction or dual given. In that case, if I’m signing the FR after the ground work, then I want to see him fly. Now if that first instructor had signed off the air portion of a flight review and annotated ground work still required. That might be different. But I’ve never seen the FR split that way.

After many years of not flying and getting back in the saddle after two short flights? I’m sure not everything was covered.
 
mondtster said:
Documenting ground training is something that many (most?) instructors are poor at doing, including myself. It really should be done but often gets overlooked.
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This. I got tired of the eye rolling so I stopped asking CFI's to document ground training.

I wanted to tell the book keeper that if it isn't in my log it shouldn't be on my bill. I decided it was better to get a ppl.
 
Hi everyone.
If there is no endorsement entry in the log book, Gleim has very good Log books, typically at the end, it's easy to just print something like this, you can put around 6 per page. the (a) will cover the Ground also, cross off the ones not done / needed, if you are a CFI current, you do not need the Ground (f) and if Wings (e)... but best to enter Ground and what covered...
You can print your Name___ and #___ and just attach it to your book, and number the page, if in between, not at the end, you can call it XXa..

Mr. _______________, holder of pilot certificate, #________,
has satisfactorily completed a flight review of § 61.56 (a)(f)(e)
on _________________ Next review due ________________
Signed ________________________ DATE_______________
CFI No.________________________ Exp. _______________
 
unsafervguy said:
what is this flight review you speak of? I have never done one.
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Have you been a pilot more than 2 years? You need a biannual flight review every two years to be legal. Its like a mini-checkride to make sure you didn’t forget everything. Alternatives to compliance are the FAA wings program (seminars plus flying instruction) or earning a new rating.


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Eric Gleason said:
Have you been a pilot more than 2 years? You need a biannual flight review every two years to be legal. Its like a mini-checkride to make sure you didn’t forget everything. Alternatives to compliance are the FAA wings program (seminars plus flying instruction) or earning a new rating.


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I guess I should have added a few smiley faces. You did not get the tounge in cheek aspect of that. Most pro pilots have not had one or haven't had one in years. I added ratings every year or so for the first few years so I never needed one. Then as a part 121 current pilot I have not needed one for the last 20 years.
 
When logged as "satisfactory completed the flight review required by 61.56" then the minimum flight and ground time would be implicit.
 
Hi Sbest.
How would you describe the Wings and or current CFIs, if you only use 61.56?
 
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