Am I full of crap?

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saracelica

saracelica

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saracelica
I put this in one of my other postings. But I'm thinking about it more and everytime I get more annoyed.

So I took my original checkride on July 2nd. Failed it (I knew I would but wanted to have the experience - say what you will about that but everyone hipped it up about how terrifying it is and so I wanted to experience.) Fortunately I passed the Oral portion no problem. But failed alot of the flight stuff - supposedly due to not knowing trim.

So was training with a CFI for about 17 hours in those 60 days...the majority in the last two weeks or so. Had the plan to do the checkride yesterday. On Monday I got up early (4am) with my husband since he had a meeting to go to and he likes to turn on all the lights <sigh> Went to work had alot of crap happen - Case of the Mondays. <grin> Went out to the airport to find my instructor. He says "Change of plans you're doing the checkride today - Leo is on his way" I was like "What - I don't have a chance today...I'm tired and really fustrated about work stuff" Pretty much said either I know it or I don't and you're time is up. Well I sure would've rather had a discussion about it then to waste $200. We filled out the paperwork and whatnot. They were surprised I didn't have my knowledge test paper results with me (Hello genius this was suppose to happen tomorrow) Failed the 'ride again. Just wasn't mentally or physically prepared for it. They thought it was hog wash. I'm so mad. Couldn't my CFI called and said "Uh Sara you're 60 days is up on Wednesday...the DPE is available only today whatcha think?" I would've said "No thanks I don't feel all that confident" and then thought about what I want to do. So now I'm $200 lighter and still have to think about what I want to do.

Let the depressing replies begin.:confused:
 
I can see why my instructor has been married twice now. He doesn't even ask what I wanted to do. He did what he wanted. MEN. <bleck>
 
I think a lot of students would have been upset had they been surprised like that. Your instructor certainly should have contacted you in advance, if, for nothing else, to make sure you brought everything with you (e.g. your written test results).

- Russ
 
To answer this thread's question: No, you're not.

Go kick your instructor's *** and take $200 from his wallet. :cornut:
 
Springing a checkride on you like that should be punishable by death, IMHO. What a crock.

He is supposed to be working for YOU -- not the other way around.
 
My CFI said if I did pass then he would've had a discussion with me about flying by myself since he didn't think it was safe. Oh my goodness I'm so mad.
 
Consider what the "IC" in PIC stands for. You have to be that.

You have to be that in your training, you have to be that on your checkride, you have to be that as a pilot. It was your decision to take the checkride that day. There will always be people giving you advice, some good, some bad, but in the end, every decision is yours.
-harry
 
I need to post something rather negative. The airplane doesn't care whether you've had a good day or bad. The airplane doesn't care what mood you're in. The pilot has to be cool, conscientious, and ready.

I'd had longish trips where I had to leave or boogie in a hurry. I had George H. W. Bush show up in my town, and had to take off a day earlier than planned. Last year I left 6Y9 a day earlier than I wanted, and after a rather late night drinking I might add. I'm not any kind of superman, I just feel you have to be that way to be a pilot. Sometimes you just didn't have a lot of choice. Unless something is physically wrong with you, you should be able to do the flight portion of your checkride.

Again, I am sorry to be so negative. But sometimes you just have to be in "airplane mode", and let the rest be as it may. If you can't, you could be a danger to yourself and your passengers.
 
I hear you Steingar I do. If it was my choice and my decision to go I would've cancelled after the day I had. There is nothing I needed to do or go in that kind of mood. I should've cancelled but I wasn't given the option. What I should've done is say "$200? - I don't carry around that kind of money" But no I was stupid and wrote the check.

Contiplating my next steps. To continue training or not. My CFI friend said "You're hitting a wall - I don't know what to do to help you get past it....you know all the maneuvers cold but when it comes down to doing it all at once you freak out" 2 weeks off might do me some good. Suppose to go on a pleasure trip with the husband (he has his IFR) and see if just helping him out on a trip and *steering* the plane once airborne is enough for me. He won't even entertain the idea of letting me land the plane - because he doesn't know how to save a bad landing. He thought maybe the take off wx permitting. Ugh.
 
Your instructor is full of crap. If he thinks you can't fly after your checkride he's got no business signing you off for it, let alone the other stuff.

Frankly, I do not understand how you got to even your first checkride. If you "knew" you wouldn't pass either you've got deep self esteem problems or (more likely) poor training. I'd be looking at another instructor to do an assessment of where your short comings are and what you need to finish up.

Is this a 141 school?
 
saracelica said:
My CFI said if I did pass then he would've had a discussion with me about flying by myself since he didn't think it was safe. Oh my goodness I'm so mad.
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so why has he signed you off TWICE for a checkride? is he stupid?
 
Saracelica,

Take this as a lesson in being PIC. It is always your decision to fly or not fly no one elses. You gave up that decision to your CFII, if you were not up for the check ride you should have said no.

However your CFI sounds like a ******* and has no idea how to teach women. Women do learn differently. Find a new instructor, if you are in Michigan I have a recomendation for you.
 
You didn't have to take the check ride. That decision was completely yours to make. Might there have been consequences like finding a new CFI to finish with? Sure, but in light of what you claim in your OP it's probably the smartest thing for you to do anyway. This unfortunate experience is as much your fault as his.

Scheduling a check ride knowing you were going to fail? A CFI signing you off for a check ride if you were truly not ready? A CFI forcing you into a second check ride that you were not prepared for? You agreeing to a second check ride you knew you were not prepared for? This seems to be a string of bad decisions perpetuated by both parties.

I apologize for sounding harsh, but given the facts you've laid out I really don't know what else could be said. If I were in your shoes, given the information you've reported about your current CFI, I'd be finding a new CFI before I did any more flying.
 
saracelica said:
If it was my choice and my decision to go I would've cancelled after the day I had.
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This right here is the problem!!!!

It was your choice and your decision. All you had to tell him was uh, no I'm not doing this today I don't feel up to it.

Go find a new instructor. Let me know if you are in Michigan and I will send you to someone who is really good at training women.
 
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As a new pilot in training myself..........I would have found a new CFI after that stint. Like someone else said, your paying them to be working for you. If you're not ready, then you're not ready and your CFI should be your advocate when it comes to that. Find a new CFI before you hang it up and see if there is a different method of thought or personality that might help you more than this guy does.
 
saracelica said:
If it was my choice and my decision to go I would've cancelled after the day I had.
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But it was your choice. You could've said no. On the other hand your instructor sounds like an idiot.
 
Not as negative as I thought so far. :)

Missa - How far up in Michigan do you know someone? I'm in NWOhio so going to say Detroit wouldn't be an issue.

I've had two CFI's sign me off. The first one did it as a favor to me. I begged him to just sign me off. I have MORE then enough hours and I thought in crunch time I could pull it off. But then I didn't know how to trim. Now I do.(It's fantastic) So I thought if I do what I did on the first one after I trim I should be good to go.
 
Here's a positive reply:

Fire your CFI and find an instructor who can teach you how to fly. Accept that you'll have to spend some money, but it's better to spend it on something of value rather than a checkride you won't pass.

And don't take another checkride until you pass a mock checkride that follows the PTS. KNOW that you're going to pass.
 
Thanks Jack. I keep coming back around to the "I.M.S.A.F.E." list. Really wish I put my foot down and said "I'm not going..." But I tried that before when the winds were alot worse then I felt comfortable and the DPE argued with me and said "It's fine" I dunno maybe I'm not good with authority figures and didn't want to say "I'm way to do tired to do it today. Fine it's my fault I accept it. I should've said something.
 
saracelica said:
I hear you Steingar I do. If it was my choice and my decision to go I would've cancelled after the day I had. There is nothing I needed to do or go in that kind of mood. I should've cancelled but I wasn't given the option. What I should've done is say "$200? - I don't carry around that kind of money" But no I was stupid and wrote the check.
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This is indeed part of the IMSAFE checklist.

I Illness- Do I have an illness or any symptoms of an illness?

M Medication- Have I been taking prescription or over-the-counter drugs?

S Stress- Am I under psychological pressure from the job? Worried about financial matters, health problems or family discord?

A Alcohol- Have I been drinking within eight hours? Within 24 hours?

F Fatigue- Am I tired and not adequately rested?

E Eating- Am I adequately nourished?

In a check ride, you are PIC. Part of that is saying to yourself, can I fly. However, once committed to fly, you are the pilot, and no matter how you may feel you've got to get yourself and your pax safely down again.

Again, I am sorry to be so negative, but I am really glad you posted about your experience. I suspect many can and will learn from your misfortune. Your time and money have certainly not been spent in vain.
 
PM sent NE side of Detroit at Ray Comunity airport. I can't recommend Todd enough.

More then one women on this board got their training from him.
 
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Received. Thanks Missa. Not sure what I may do. Two weeks off may do me some good.
 
As others have said, as PIC it's your call if you fly that day or not. During my checkride, the DPE pulled all kinds of crap to get me to screw up, telling me to do things I knew were unsafe. I refused. I think the DPE was testing if I would stand up and say no. You need to learn to do that.
 
The way I figure it I would have failed 3 of the "I.M.S.A.F.E" points.

Fatigued - early morning
Eating - didn't have much to eat for lunch due to the hectic day
Stress - from the same hectic day.

Felt good the next morning though...since I knew I didn't have to go into work.
 
saracelica said:
I hear you Steingar I do. If it was my choice and my decision to go I would've cancelled after the day I had. There is nothing I needed to do or go in that kind of mood. I should've cancelled but I wasn't given the option. What I should've done is say "$200? - I don't carry around that kind of money" But no I was stupid and wrote the check.
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It was your choice and your decision. For your checkride, you are the Pilot in Command, and if you have any concerns about it, it's your decision to cancel.

You did not make any agreement with the DPE to do the test, your CFI did. If the DPE needs to be paid for his time, then that's between him and the CFI.

You allowed yourself to be pressured into conducting a flight you did not feel prepared for. Considering that, this was a test of judgment as PIC, and not one that reflects favourably. What will you do as a PP if you need to get somewhere, but the weather's not so good? Will you go ahead and make the flight, or exercise judgement and cancel the flight?
 
saracelica said:
I can see why my instructor has been married twice now. He doesn't even ask what I wanted to do. He did what he wanted. MEN. <bleck>
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I was on your side, up until I read this.
 
As I once heard the finger of blame is usually pointing three back to oneself.

As previously mentioned PIC, you are in charge. I feel bad for the money wasted. Now get back on that horse, pull your hat down tight and get it done. Then go back and slap your previous instructor....he sounds like he needs it for not having you ready.
 
caveat: I'm not a CFI, but I'm wondering how the CFI could sign you off for a checkride if he felt you wouldn't pass.

bottomline: get another CFI.

I'd have suggested get a better CFI, but it would be difficult to find one worse. I base that on the fact that he sent you to a checkride twice to fail. While it is ultimately up to you to pass, the CFI has an obligation to make sure you are ready.
 
Supposedly he was doing me a favor getting me into the DPE...since the schedule was pretty booked. But if you are a CFI and reading this, do something weird - Communicate with your student(s). A 5 minute phone call would've saved alot of time and energy.
 
Sara I see two problems,

First: In my opinion you need to find a new CFI, I think his advice was horse hockey

Second: You need to assert yourself more and make the decisions. As other above said thats what PIC is all about. You had two options. A) Decline to take the check ride **** off your CFI and end up getting a new CFI and have the $200 still in your pocket B) Take the check ride, Fail and be so ****ed off at the CFI that you decide to get another one but have $200 less in your pocket and feel miserable about yourself.

saracelica said:
My CFI said if I did pass then he would've had a discussion with me about flying by myself since he didn't think it was safe. Oh my goodness I'm so mad.
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As for what you attribute above to your CFI well that tells one all they need to know in my honest opinion. Go get another CFI.
 
I'll put a different spin on this. Yeah, the CFI may have set you up to fail, but,...

You took the checkride the first time expecting to fail - just because you wanted the experience. Why not have a 2nd CFI give you a mock checkride instead?

You took the second checkride even though you didn't want to and weren't ready. You've gotten enough comments about that, I won't add any more.

Next time, go into it knowing you'll PASS and you will probably do just fine.
 
My useless opinion: you're not full of crap - just too meek and willing to please others. Whether your husband, CFI, or DPE. The latter two definitely took advantage of your meekness to suit their schedules.

My very unprofessional opinion is you need to change your personality (very hard to do - but getting ****ed at yourself and them is a good start!): you need to be more assertive and in command, both of your training, life, and the airplane. Need to train yourself to be in the perpetual mood of "I'm going to put this plane where I want it as if the ******** things is on rails. It goes when I say, not before. And I'm in charge, not some dead-weight CFI or DPE."

Don't be a passenger, be the driver - of all aspects. It is good to get angry and in the mood to kick some ass. Then direct it to self-improvement with your rational part.

(Can't believe I wrote the above - looks like the self-help junk I've never cared for!)
 
Missa said:
PM sent NE side of Detroit at Ray Comunity airport. I can't recommend Todd enough.
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If this is Todd Y. then yes, I've heard lots of good things about him too and spoke with him a couple of times at 57D. He is a gentleman and helped me out as a transient pilot looking for wx info. I know that's not a solid recommendation but it's all I can give as I've never trained with him.

In case you have trouble connecting with Todd, I'm going to PM you a second recommendation, also a CFI in the Detroit area. Greg was my first flight instructor and he is first rate IMO.
 
Don't look at it as money wasted. As I tell my kids and a lot of other people... tuition isn't free, even (sometimes especially) from Hard Knocks U. Sometimes you just don't learn what you THOUGHT you were going to learn! In this case, you got several very valuable lessons:

  1. You need a new CFI. This one seems to make poor decisions. For example, he signed you off for a checkride when even he didn't think you were ready. He also sprung a checkride on you unannounced, and pushed you to do it when it should have been obvious you were not mentally prepared for it.
  2. You're not ready for your checkride yet.
  3. You now know what to expect when you do take a checkride
  4. You know some of the areas ion which you're weak and need to do more more work.
  5. You need to re-assess and work on your decision making, and maybe work on your ability to simply tell people, "No". That's a tough one, but it needs to be done sometimes.
Sounds to me like aside from the disappointment you got a lot of mileage out of that 200 bucks.
 
saracelica said:
My CFI said if I did pass then he would've had a discussion with me about flying by myself since he didn't think it was safe.
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Are you serious? He signed you off for a checkride, sprung it on you unannounced, but tells you you're unsafe to fly solo?? This sounds really, really bad... Are you sure he knows what he's doing as an instructor?
 
This may be harsh but ...

It sounds a little bit like you go back and forth between you choosing that it's time to go be a pilot and Aviate, and letting others make that decision for you. Maybe all the way back to the decision to start training.

Decide for yourself NOW if you want to be a better pilot than the PTS standards. Then the path becomes clear, "How do I do that?"

You cannot allow others to make decisions with your life as Pilot In Command. Either you're ready to fly to the standards necessary for a safe outcome of the flight, or you're not. If you're not, flight's cancelled. No one forced you to climb through the aircraft door and strap in.

Remember that the Private PTS is the bare minimum on the aviation learning curve. We Private Pilots aren't held to the highest standard, we're held to the lowest.

If you feel uncomfortable or are questioning your ability to nail those very low standards and exceed them, very bad things up to and including death are more likely to be the result, if you choose to get in the aircraft and turn the ignition key.

You've been handed a golden learning opportunity in my not-so-humble opinion. You've now learned that no one, and nothing, *ever* will tell you when you must go fly ever again. This is the lesson learned here.

The number one aeronautical decision every pilot makes is whether or not they and the equpiment are ready to Aviate. Let anyone usurp that responsibilty and the accident chain has already started.

Any instructor who is usurping your PIC decision on checkride day, didn't teach the number one thing that will keep you and your future passengers alive, and should be instantly fired as your instructor.

This is not something you "talk out" with him or her, you fire them and find someone else. They are teaching you a bad habit of looking to others for your go/no-go decisions and eventually, this *will* get you killed.

I stole my rule for multi-pilot aircraft flights from Kevin Garrison. "Whoever's the most scared, wins."

Meaning, if the CFI or another pilot on board says go and I say no... We're not going.

If I say go and the CFI/other pilot says no... We're not going.

We can stand safely on the ground and argue it for hours if we want, but we're not going until the thing that caused one pilot to say "no-go" changes. And by that I mean a real change, not someone convincing the other that it wasn't a problem.

Fire the CFI. Prepare yourself to exceed the PTS standards with someone else. And don't schedule another checkride until you're chomping at the bit to prove to a DPE that you're more than ready to fly better than they are required to test you to. Show up as prepared as you've ever been and ready to fly better than the PTS, and the checkride becomes a non-event. It's just someone observing what you already should know how to accomplish before you ever get in an aircraft with them.
 
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