Am I Crazy, Crying Wolf, or just over-reacting

FlySince9

FlySince9

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Jerry
Cessna Skyhawk 172P (1979, I think)

30 Kt winds on the ramp... Airplane facing downwind, tied down. Ailerons flapping to the stops in each direction... Open the door and find Yoke Gust Lock is installed... Look out a the wings. Ailerons being forced to full deflection by the wind... I pull out the Gust Lock from the Yoke and try to counter the wind with control inputs... Unable to do so, Either Yoke is Jammed or wind overpowering my inputs (not likely)...

Mechanics pull inspection plates and use borescope. Then report NOTHING IS WRONG with the aileron system and put the plane back in service... How can this be? I had a shouting match with the club president... He says those are his best mechanics/ AI, etc blah blah blah... I say there is a serious hidden issue... Ailerons should not be able to move to full deflection with Yoke Lock in... A little play, maybe... but not to full deflections... so I ask you mechanics out there...

Am I Crazy, Crying Wolf, or just over-reacting...

For those of you who might remember, this is the same plane where it was hard to correct an un-commanded roll, during takeoff climb, in a moderately strong crosswind...
 
With a gust lock in, the yoke cannot move front or back, nor side to side at least in my '66 172. I would think it physically impossible to move either the elevator or aileron.

You aren't referring to the rudder? I have a separate, home-made gust lock for it.
 
Did you turn the plane into the wind? If the yoke was moving with the gust lock pin in then the yoke shaft is cut in half by the pin. If the yoke wasn't moving, the play/stretch was in the cable rigging.
 
Henning said:
If the yoke wasn't moving, the play/stretch was in the cable rigging.
Click to expand...
And if that's the case, would the OP be justified in squawking about it? That seems like an awful lot of play...

Would that explain difficulty in picking up a wing? :eek:
 
Something is seriousley wrong. Based on your description I would not fly that aircraft until it was fixed.
 
iflyvfr said:
And if that's the case, would the OP be justified in squawking about it? That seems like an awful lot of play...

Would that explain difficulty in picking up a wing? :eek:
Click to expand...

I would be quite concerned either way, lots of little phenolic pulley stacks in the system.
 
Doesn't sound right. I'd put the lock in on a calm day and then go gently push on an aileron to see how it behaves. I definitely wouldn't fly it until I had an explanation.

Hopefully you held on to the door and didn't let it bend the hinges with a heavy tailwind either. Plenty of Cessna hinges all screwed up from that out there, too.
 
denverpilot said:
Doesn't sound right. I'd put the lock in on a calm day and then go gently push on an aileron to see how it behaves. I definitely wouldn't fly it until I had an explanation
Click to expand...

Mechanics did that. Say they pulled inspection plates and tested tension. But I know what I saw. And I won't fly that airplane again. It may be years, months, or days, but I foresee something bad happening with that plane and nobody is listening. I think something is hiding its ugly little head from the mechanics and they are not willing to go further than normal ( by the book)
Tests...
 
FlySince9 said:
When the wind had the aileron at full deflection I couldn't correct it with the Yoke.
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Well you said "yoke is jammed" so I'm trying to figure out what you meant by that. It would seem from your description that one wouldn't be able to get past the controls free and correct item on the pre-flight checklist.
 
Sounds like a crazy story that can't happen unless the cable lock (9) is lost. Probably nothing wrong with the tension like mechanics said.
 

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'Perfect time to pull out the smart phone and shoot some pics or a video.
 
zaitcev said:
Sounds like a crazy story that can't happen unless the cable lock (9) is lost. Probably nothing wrong with the tension like mechanics said.
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Crazy story!?!?

Forget all the other stuff... Are you telling me that with the Yoke-Gust Lock in place it is possible for the ailerons to move to full deflection in both directions without there being something wrong????? As Henning mentioned, there are a lot of pulley stacks in that system... Any one of them or the supporting structure around it could be damaged... In that document you posted, look at figure 6-3... Part number 8 is bent on the left wing of this airplane. I told them about that months ago and they say its normal... Normal "Schmormal!" That airplane is damaged. Probably under similar conditions (windy day on the ramp) maybe gust lock wasn't installed that time, who knows? Based on the on the depictions in that document, I doubt those mechanics examined all of those pulley points, and in my opinion testing the tension on the cables isn't going to find this problem because the procedure to test the tension is probably designed so that damage is not done while setting/testing the tension... The wind doesn't give a CRAP about procedures, it simply SLAMS the thing around! I've been around airplanes my whole life. I know normal from abnormal operation of freak'n ailerons. As far as I'm concerned, I've done all I can do with this thing... I just hope nobody gets killed because the mechanics are too smug to admit that a non-mechanic is capable of determining that something is out of order and may be above and beyond the guidelines set forth in a maintenance manual...:mad2:
 

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A couple of simple tests to determine better what is going on:

hold both yokes and see if there is any free play between them when you attempt to simultaneously turn them in opposite directions.

Have someone hold an aileron in neutral or install an external aileron lock and see if there is free play in the system by trying to turn either of the yokes.
 
Sound like a problem to me. Any other pilots in your club have a look?
 
I'd at least let someone else test it out for a while, doesn't sound normal at all even with a 30 knot wind.
 
I am wondering how the universal joints on the bottom of the yokes are.
 
The plane has a problem. You have 4 choices as to what to do-

  1. Do nothing, take their word for it and proceed as normal.
  2. Send an email to your club with your concerns and stop flying the club's planes. This puts in writing that you noticed a problem and if some other poor pilot ends up in the dirt during a cross wind landing, you have proof for the NTSB that this might not just be "pilot error". In addition, if this plane is this f'd up, what about the others on the flight line?
  3. Rat them out to the FAA/FSDO/local DER. A quick ramp check will get this plane grounded and proper repairs done. Maybe save a life. It will also put you on the local ****e list.
  4. Walk away, do nothing, do not fly their planes again.
I would likely do number 2, but I would totally understand number 3 if it is as bad as you say.
 
The cable tension might be correct.

check the Heim Joints that attach to the ailerons. Perhaps the bearing inside of them is "out of spec" or missing.
 
FlySince9 said:
Cessna Skyhawk 172P (1979, I think)

30 Kt winds on the ramp... Airplane facing downwind, tied down. Ailerons flapping to the stops in each direction... Open the door and find Yoke Gust Lock is installed... Look out a the wings. Ailerons being forced to full deflection by the wind... I pull out the Gust Lock from the Yoke and try to counter the wind with control inputs... Unable to do so, Either Yoke is Jammed or wind overpowering my inputs (not likely)...

Mechanics pull inspection plates and use borescope. Then report NOTHING IS WRONG with the aileron system and put the plane back in service... How can this be? I had a shouting match with the club president... He says those are his best mechanics/ AI, etc blah blah blah... I say there is a serious hidden issue... Ailerons should not be able to move to full deflection with Yoke Lock in... A little play, maybe... but not to full deflections... so I ask you mechanics out there...

Am I Crazy, Crying Wolf, or just over-reacting...

For those of you who might remember, this is the same plane where it was hard to correct an un-commanded roll, during takeoff climb, in a moderately strong crosswind...
Click to expand...

Report it to the FSDO and don't fly at that club ever again. I don't know if you are at a small airport so word may get around but you are potentially going to save a fellow pilot's life. And if that's how they maintain their aircraft I'd never want to set foot in one of their aircraft ever again.

OR if you know any local DPEs you could talk to them. They'll have an in with the FSDO and could probably provide some guidance.

Did the president of the club fully understand what you were describing? It sounds like any reasonable person would conclude that something is seriously wrong with that plane.
 
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Doesn't sound right. Do you have access to the aircraft? Can you get a pic or video of the gust lock in and the ailerons able to move?

What have you decided to do about it?
 
Sounds like a recurring bad dream where he is repeatedly being inexorably drawn into situations where he is forced to fly an airplane plagued with floppy ailerons, bent pushrods and seemingly frozen control yokes. :eek:
 
I've seen problems in rental planes at too frequent intervals but I've never had a club or FBO react the way you describe. No way would I fly it.
 
I once had an FBO try to convince me that fuel dripping out from the wing root was normal, and that you can't top off a 172 that has long range tanks. :rolleyes:

I no longer fly there.
 
Not to side track your thread, but years ago I was asked to look at an airplane that was "all over the sky" (Cessna 402). Rigging and cables tensions had been checked and rechecked. I started poking around and discovered the Horizontal stab on this airplane wiggled about an inch up and down at the tip, unlike all of the others.

The DOM gave me the OK to pull the stab, I figured it was the support mount at the empennage, but it was solid. Next shift opened up the Horizontal stab itself; inside the access plates you could see the spar was cracked in dozens of places. It was just mush. DER wouldn't touch it, they wound up scrapping it and buying a new one.

Metal fuselage should maintain pulleys, bell cranks and drive sprockets in a fixed geometry. Steel control cable doesn't stretch that much. I'd guess something is bending, broken, or cracked someplace.
 
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