Am I being unreasonable?

[Princesspilot206]

So I am 7 lessons into my IFR rating, and so far I have only been in the sim up until this point. Today I "flew" with the instructor, and what I mean by "flew" is he did the majority of the piloting. He wanted to do the pre-flight even though I am a PPL. Was explaining to me how to do a pre flight which I felt insulted my intelligence, but fine whatever. Teach me how you want it done. He did not do the final walk around, and just got in the plane. So I took it upon myself to do it. Then we got in the plane and I thought it was odd that he did not want to make a taxi call on CTAF because a better use of time was needed for pilots to make traffic pattern calls instead. Then he proceeded to taxi and do the run-up. Then during the run-up he paused and asked if I wanted to look at a T-6 that was landing. I said "We are doing the run-up." Then he finished and proceeded to takeoff. Then on the climb out had me put on the foggles and I did a hold. Then he set up a LOC approach back into the airport and did the whole thing himself! Only at the very end did he say "your controls." Then I landed and after a smooth landing I retracted the flaps. Then he said "Don't do that!" I said why, I have always done that. Then he said once you are in a multi-engine plane you could accidentally retract the landing gear. Then I thought to myself "Okay whatever I have always done it like that." Then on the way back to taxi to the ramp, there was a person crossing in front of us maybe 30ft ahead, and he said "10 points if you can hit him." Now tell me how in the hell am I supposed to learn from someone like this?! Am I being unreasonable, or should I expect my first IFR lesson in the plane to be like this. He also found it surprising that I asked him to clear the airspace before I proceeded to turn 360 degrees like he asked.

 

[PaulS]

Nope, you are not being unreasonable, move on.

 

[tsts4]

Does sound a bit bizarre, but you have to decide if you can make it work. It’s your money and sounds like you might be better off trying a different CFII.

BTW, I absolutely abhor those taxi calls. We have a flight school on my field that teaches that technique and all it does is clog the freq with what is, IMO, useless chatter that does nothing to contribute to safety.

 

[Zeldman]

Yep, move on.

Holds and approaches are not the first instrument flight lesson. You are learning to fly a plane in a different way and it is almost like starting over.

And by the way, on a normal landing I put the flaps up as soon as the mains touch the ground. Most other landings as well.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I would move on.

 

[dbahn]

If he's over fifty, he's playing with you. If he's in his 20s he's an idiot.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

I suggest finding another instructor.

However, the advice to not raise the flaps is a good one. I recommend waiting to clear the runway and then identifying the flap switch before activating it. I reach for it and then say out loud, "Flaps identified and up."

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

You are not being unreasonable.

 

[Racerx]

Probably would have taxied back to ramp after breaking my focus during a run up.

 

[Dana]

I agree that taxi calls are usually pointless. In everything else the CFI sounds like a real bozo.

 

[brcase]

Also agree that pilots do way to many taxi calls. I am always tempted to responded with something like Taxiway Alpha Traffic In Sight. But then I would be cluttering the the frequency just like they are they are.

the bigger problem is when multiple airports are on the same frequency as they frequently are, the traffic in the air just hears all the ground traffic stepping on each other transmissions. Or ground traffic is blocking critical traffic calls, like Skyhawks 123 on short final as it looks like someone is about to pull out onto the runway.

About 1% of flights I will make taxi calls. Like when there is little traffic and it is unclear which runway is in use or if I am going to do something unexpected like make a downwind takeoff or opposite direction takeoff

As for the OP, His instructor didn’t do much that I might not have done on a 1st IFR flight lesson. But I would have done a better job of explaining why we were doing it or asking how the client preferred to do it. I probably would not have taught the preflight, unless it was an airplane you were not familiar with. I also wouldn’t have mentioned the retracting flaps in a non-retractable airplane. But he has a valid point, Attached photo was last week and obstucting the runway as my student returning from his solo cross country. My student did a great job dealing with it.
I probably would have explained I was demonstrating the approach but I might have had the client do some parts like set up the radios Or other tasks. Would also depend on how much of the approach we had previously covered on the pre-flight breifing and previous sim-lessons.

end result is the OP wasn’t very happy with the lesson and when ever that happens especially repeatedly I I will alway recommend trying another instructor.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[TommyG]

Dump him.

 

[dmspilot]

So I am 7 lessons into my IFR rating, and so far I have only been in the sim up until this point. Today I "flew" with the instructor, and what I mean by "flew" is he did the majority of the piloting. He wanted to do the pre-flight even though I am a PPL. Was explaining to me how to do a pre flight which I felt insulted my intelligence, but fine whatever. Teach me how you want it done. He did not do the final walk around, and just got in the plane. So I took it upon myself to do it. Then we got in the plane and I thought it was odd that he did not want to make a taxi call on CTAF because a better use of time was needed for pilots to make traffic pattern calls instead. Then he proceeded to taxi and do the run-up. Then during the run-up he paused and asked if I wanted to look at a T-6 that was landing. I said "We are doing the run-up." Then he finished and proceeded to takeoff. Then on the climb out had me put on the foggles and I did a hold. Then he set up a LOC approach back into the airport and did the whole thing himself! Only at the very end did he say "your controls." Then I landed and after a smooth landing I retracted the flaps. Then he said "Don't do that!" I said why, I have always done that. Then he said once you are in a multi-engine plane you could accidentally retract the landing gear. Then I thought to myself "Okay whatever I have always done it like that." Then on the way back to taxi to the ramp, there was a person crossing in front of us maybe 30ft ahead, and he said "10 points if you can hit him." Now tell me how in the hell am I supposed to learn from someone like this?! Am I being unreasonable, or should I expect my first IFR lesson in the plane to be like this. He also found it surprising that I asked him to clear the airspace before I proceeded to turn 360 degrees like he asked.

Whatever DPE gave him a CFI certificate was being unreasonable. He should have to pay you for the flight time he was able to accumulate when you accompanied him on his lessons. Or at least you should ask for a refund.

 

[TrueCourse]

Sounds like an odd bird.

 

[TCABM]

Unless the CFI paid for the flight, it’s time to move on. Early instrument training should focus on instrument attitude flying, not sim approaches, holds, and demo approaches under the hood.

 

[robin ardoin]

He doesn’t appear to be very professional so, based upon what you have presented, I would also have concerns. As far as the taxi call, I make them at my home field. We have a lot of helo traffic that approaches down the taxiway prior to landing at their base. It works very well to avoid potential conflicts.

 

[Country Flier]

He doesn't sound horrible, but he also doesn't sound like a fit for you. It's your money, find someone you like.

 

[Steamflyer]

Doesn't sound like the instructor has a plan. Assume that if this is your 7th instructional IFR lesson you've mastered straight and level, turns to heading, and intercepting a course by now, even if only in the sim (which is actually harder in my experience). If not, no point in flying an approach since it has all that plus the vertical component.

Assume the 10 points if you can hit him is purely facetious.

The "don't raise the flaps on the runway" is good feedback - clean up the airplane while stopped across the hold line using the after landing checklist.

 

[midlifeflyer]

BTW, I absolutely abhor those taxi calls. We have a flight school on my field that teaches that technique and all it does is clog the freq with what is, IMO, useless chatter that does nothing to contribute to safety.

I’m another who thinks most taxi calls are useless, but it depends on runway/taxiway configuration. My home base is an example. Taxi to or from Runway 3 is a waste of time. announcing taxi to or from 21 can avoid ground conflicts. And yes, so can the landing traffic rolling out to the next exit but I don’t expect that much situational awareness from people.

 

[midlifeflyer]

As for the OP, His instructor didn’t do much that I might not have done on a 1st IFR flight lesson

I can’t imagine doing any of that on a first IFR lesson (unless there was something wrong with the pilot) except perhaps recommending waiting to get off the runway before cleaning the airplane for taxi, but even that could have waited until the debrief.

OTOH, there are IFR basics that, from the OP’s account, were not even touched on. IFR taxi checks, the airwork to begin converting the limited emergency scan of the VFR pilot into the sustainable scan of the instrument pilot, working on pitch-power-configuration targets for the phases of flight…

I’m not quite ready for “get rid of him,” but I would be asking why.

 

[tsts4]

I can’t imagine doing any of that on a first IFR lesson (unless there was something wrong with the pilot) except perhaps recommending waiting to get off the runway before cleaning the airplane for taxi, but even that could have waited until the debrief.

OTOH, there are IFR basics that, from the OP’s account, were not even touched on. IFR taxi checks, the airwork to begin converting the limited emergency scan of the VFR pilot into the sustainable scan of the instrument pilot, working on pitch-power-configuration targets for the phases of flight…

I’m not quite ready for “get rid of him,” but I would be asking why.

I tend to agree, but we have to remember that this is just the OPs account that cherry picks the stuff that seemed out of the ordinary to them. Maybe the routine stuff did happen and just wasn’t captured in the retelling of the event. Also this was the OP’s 8th lesson, albeit the first in the airplane and without a look at the syllabus it’s hard to know exactly what’s going on here.

When I did my IR training (King-Cessna 141 program) all the initial time was in a Redbird FMX AATD. My first flight in the actual plane was nothing but approaches because that’s where we were in the syllabus. Had I just said that I’ve started my training and my first flight was approaches and omitted the sim detail, folks would be having kittens about how that’s screwed up and the CFII is horrible.

 

[Luigi]

Dump Him!

 

[DesertNomad]

Your first flight should be attitude instrument flying - straight and level, standard rate turns, change of airspeed in level flight, constant speed climbs and descents, constant rate climbs and descents, then moving into climbing and descending turns. You also need to be figuring out pitch/power setting for various performance goals.

This is usually a few flights and you typically start moving into tracking a VOR while doing some of the above. To start with holds and approaches is just weird. You have to learn to control the airplane first, even if you are well along in the sim as the airplane is simply different.

Don't change the flap setting on the runway. He's right about that.

 

[tsts4]

Your first flight should be attitude instrument flying - straight and level, standard rate turns, change of airspeed in level flight, constant speed climbs and descents, constant rate climbs and descents, then moving into climbing and descending turns. This is usually a few flights as you start moving into tracking a VOR while doing some of the above. To start with holds and approaches is just weird. You have to learn to control the airplane first.

The OP said this was their 8th lesson but the first in the plane with the previous 7 being in a sim. Not saying what they did on said flight was appropriate but it wasn’t their first lesson.

 

[DesertNomad]

The OP said this was their 8th lesson but the first in the plane with the previous 7 being in a sim. Not saying what they did on said flight was appropriate but it wasn’t their first lesson.

Most sims I have used are overly sensitive in pitch and so the first flight in the plane is attitude flying. Maybe they get it quickly and we can move on, but I find that it generally takes some practice before they are ready for more advanced things. This sim is great for procedures, so hold entires, briefing approaches while flying, etc. makes it easy to do the same in the plane. I'm just saying the sim rarely flys like the real airplane enough to do away with initial attitude flying instruction.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I tend to agree, but we have to remember that this is just the OPs account that cherry picks the stuff that seemed out of the ordinary to them. Maybe the routine stuff did happen and just wasn’t captured in the retelling of the event. Also this was the OP’s 8th lesson, albeit the first in the airplane and without a look at the syllabus it’s hard to know exactly what’s going on here.

When I did my IR training (King-Cessna 141 program) all the initial time was in a Redbird FMX AATD. My first flight in the actual plane was nothing but approaches because that’s where we were in the syllabus. Had I just said that I’ve started my training and my first flight was approaches and omitted the sim detail, folks would be having kittens about how that’s screwed up and the CFII is horrible.

I agree. That's why I said, "from the OP's account" and "I'm not quite ready for 'get rid of him,' but I would be asking why."

The OP said this was their 8th lesson but the first in the plane with the previous 7 being in a sim.

That may actually make it worse. Seven lessons is a lot. Seven lessons in a sim (following a decent syllabus) should leave the instrument student with a solid scan, the basic power settings for the phases of flight (assuming a sim that emulates a somewhat similar airplane), some IFR patterns to learn changes, basic buttonology if a modern cockpit, perhaps even a few holds and approaches. IOW, more than capable of doing the entire first flight in an airplane without as much CFII involvement as described here. And the sim, even if true to type, still requires translation into an aircraft in flight.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

That should have been worth way more than 10 points. Id find a CFI that understands points are given out based on number of occupants in the airplane and in the books I believe it states it's 25 per person.

 

[tsts4]

Most sims I have used are overly sensitive in pitch and so the first flight in the plane is attitude flying. Maybe they get it quickly and we can move on, but I find that it generally takes some practice before they are ready for more advanced things. This sim is great for procedures, so hold entires, briefing approaches while flying, etc. makes it easy to do the same in the plane. I'm just saying the sim rarely flys like the real airplane enough to do away with initial attitude flying instruction.

See my post #21. I do agree 100% in that I found the sim way harder to fly than the plane. However, for me that made my first lesson in the plane a piece of cake. And again, I’m only saying that what you do on a given lesson should be governed by the syllabus. For me my first actual flight in the plane approaches were appropriate because of where I was in training at that time. For others, based upon a number of variables it may well be inappropriate.

 

[kaiser]

Weird that the instructor was behaving like that. I’m a bit forward, but if my instructor was on the controls that much, I’d make them pay for the rental. You will find that there are pilots and instructors that you absolutely cannot share a cockpit with. It happens. You’re the client, do what’s best for you.

WRT flaps, I don’t touch them unless I really need to dump lift… big gusty winds, poor runway traction, STOL stuff, Twin Comanche, etc.

 

[rhkennerly]

No, it’s your money. I’d wager he’s a recent product of one of the big pilot mills: long on certificates, short of experience.

Taxi calls have gotten out of hand. I did a BFR at DeLand. The Emory Riddle conga line kept the airwaves full of useless information. But they’re training for the airlines, progressive taxiing, and dealing with multimillion dollar hardware. Still, it’s annoying to everyone else.

Best practices is to not touch anything until you cross the runway line. Then stop & clean up. Frankly, since my flaps are manual and I frequently dump them on landing, I can get away with it. But reactively flipping a switch on the panel on rollout has bellied a lot of complex aircraft.

Army lost a lot of B-17s in WWII to grabbing the wrong handle. It took a psychologist to help them figure out both the flaps and the gear should not have round knobs on the end of a stalk.

 

[FastEddieB]

Re: flap retraction on rollout…

There is nothing wrong with “teaching by the book”. While there may be rare exceptions, an instructor is well served by teaching what the FAA recommends in their publications, in this case the Airplane Flying Handbook.

Watching pilots, there seems to be a strong psychological compunction to fiddle with things on the rollout. But really, there’s precious little that can’t wait until clear of the runway and stopped.

 

[Punkinhead]

He's right about the taxi calls and flap retraction but his touching the controls at all, let alone flying an approach, would be enough for me to find someone else. The "10 points" thing wouldn't bother me in the least.

 

[Matthew]

I was initially taught to retract flaps on rollout to put more weight on the wheels.

Then I was taught not to make any configuration changes until off the rwy.

 

[dtuuri]

So I am 7 lessons into my IFR rating, and so far I have only been in the sim up until this point. Today I "flew" with the instructor, and what I mean by "flew" is he did the majority of the piloting. <snip>

Well, there ya go... He doesn't have much respect for the way you do things. Probably thinks you take too much time, are a stubborn slow learner and is trying to show you how things should be done. Might even be trying to save you money by expediting ground operations for you. You will never agree with his opinion of you, so I think you should look for another instructor too. But he might just be right, you know?

 

[jordane93]

I agree with the taxi call and flap retraction on the runway but everything else has me scratching my head. Did you guys debrief? You could have asked him to clarify some things and talk about how you would have liked the flight to go in a certain direction. I think most CFIs are up for constructive criticism.

 

[mandm]

As long as I have control and situational awareness is high, on the landing I’ll put flaps up and turn off the fuel boost pump, strobes (if on). Some instructors don’t like that and want you to wait until you’ve cleared the runway.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Watching pilots, there seems to be a strong psychological compunction to fiddle with things on the rollout. But really, there’s precious little that can’t wait until clear of the runway and stopped.

This is one of my worst habits

 

[midlifeflyer]

This is one of my worst habits

I always wonder whether the need to fiddle is just an outgrowth of a culture in which activity for its own sake has value. "Hard work" is a virtue, whether it accomplishes anything or not.

When I teach, whether basic airmanship or instrument procedures, one of the most difficult tasks is to get the pilot to do less when they don't have to do more. We need to cover all the essentials but it can be done in a more efficient manner.

Yeah, maybe retracting flaps on rollout isn't a problem for "me," but what's the downside of waiting until off the runway?

 

[Skyrys62]

I set flaps to short field takeoff after every landing.

Zombie attacks are real...

 

[Princesspilot206]

While I understand the points made about the taxi calls and flap retraction, I still feel uneasy about continuing with this person. I will give it one more lesson for him to redeem himself in my eyes. There were many other things I did not mention that occurred like him insulting other students in my presence. As well as other instructors interrupting my lessons to talk to him and him saying its okay for that to happen. I have flown with a lot of people all over the country, and have never felt like this about someone.