luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
see #11, #12 and #18. That's what I replied to.
Altitude your discretion
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
My vote / IMHO / what I've been taught:
1) VFR Flight Following is not flying under ATC control. They don't give you vectors or altitudes.
2) As a courtesy, you tell them what altitude you are intending. As a curtesy, you tell them if you are changing altitudes. "Altitude at your discretion" means you can change now, I don't see anything that will hit you at this point. It doesn't mean you can fly at 25 feel and buzz a school.
3) They give you advisories. When needed, they give you directions. I was flying into 09J last week, lots of VFR traffic, was on flight following, and Jacksonville came to me and said "Stay at or above 2000, and turn 30 degrees to the right immediately". He saw what I didn't.
1) VFR Flight Following is not flying under ATC control. They don't give you vectors or altitudes.
2) As a courtesy, you tell them what altitude you are intending. As a curtesy, you tell them if you are changing altitudes. "Altitude at your discretion" means you can change now, I don't see anything that will hit you at this point. It doesn't mean you can fly at 25 feel and buzz a school.
3) They give you advisories. When needed, they give you directions. I was flying into 09J last week, lots of VFR traffic, was on flight following, and Jacksonville came to me and said "Stay at or above 2000, and turn 30 degrees to the right immediately". He saw what I didn't.
dmspilot
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Both your premise and conclusion are blatantly incorrect.
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
Another way to look at it. If I have flight following and fly into bravo altitude without “cleared into bravo” - I’m getting a phone number to call.
Therefore having flight following does not mean I can pick any altitude and ATC will vector all traffic away from me on a moments notice because I change to anything I want under “altitude at my discretion”.
Therefore having flight following does not mean I can pick any altitude and ATC will vector all traffic away from me on a moments notice because I change to anything I want under “altitude at my discretion”.
"Altitude at your discretion" in the VFR sense just means, "I don't need you at a specific altitude for traffic separation purposes," so you can fly any legal altitude you want to." I'm not sure how one leaps from "altitude at your discretion" to an ATC authorization (explicit or implicit) to disregard 91.159 any more than "resume own navigation" after a VFR vector equals authorization to fly anywhere you want and enter restricted areas. But I guess others do. Ah well, more power to them.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Good analogy
Kevin Eggert
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Exactly! What's to stop someone from deciding to just climb up to FL25 if they feel like it. All altitudes are an option, right? Just because a controller says, "altitude at your discretion" does not mean you throw all of the rest of the regulations and your training out the window and do whatever you want.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
I believe its from transitioning Charlie and Bravo. They are confused with the rules for altitude assigned vs an altitude they select.
You know, reading this thread is a little scary! I think most posters are pilots, so it looks like some of pilots need a little re-education on the regulations. Actually, some of the posts in this thread are hard to believe the poster is not just a troll.
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Velocity173
Rereading the OP, I see he never specifically requested 4,000, only a request to descend. Yeah, “altitude your discretion” but based on 91.159 rules.
Now, if he requested that altitude and was approved by ATC, then I don’t see a violation of 95.159. However, based on ATC rules the only time they’re granted authority to override 91.159 is for separation. That’s specifically listed in airspace (C & outer area, B,TRSA) that has prescribed separation for a VFR under FF. And again, once clear of the traffic or clear of the airspace (C & outer area, B, TRSA) the aircraft must be instructed to “resume appropriate VFR altitudes.”
Seems like there’s some confusion as to ATC’s role in separation in Class E. While 91.159 is designed to provide at least 500 ft vertical, ATC isn’t responsible for maintaining that for aircraft under FF in an E. Now, if they had crossing IFR traffic that were within 500 ft vertical of one another, a near miss could be reported. Whether or not anything would come of that report would be a whole separate issue.
Now, if he requested that altitude and was approved by ATC, then I don’t see a violation of 95.159. However, based on ATC rules the only time they’re granted authority to override 91.159 is for separation. That’s specifically listed in airspace (C & outer area, B,TRSA) that has prescribed separation for a VFR under FF. And again, once clear of the traffic or clear of the airspace (C & outer area, B, TRSA) the aircraft must be instructed to “resume appropriate VFR altitudes.”
Seems like there’s some confusion as to ATC’s role in separation in Class E. While 91.159 is designed to provide at least 500 ft vertical, ATC isn’t responsible for maintaining that for aircraft under FF in an E. Now, if they had crossing IFR traffic that were within 500 ft vertical of one another, a near miss could be reported. Whether or not anything would come of that report would be a whole separate issue.
OK, mea culpa.
I spoke to my instructor today and he educated me on VFR flight following. Yes, they will provide advisories on a workload permitting basis but that does not mean it relieves the pilot of see and avoid.
OK, as far as altitude goes. The controller can assign an altitude or altitude restriction that may not be in accordance with the VFR cruising altitude rule but if they say pilots discretion, you still have to comply with VFR cruising altitudes.
See, I learned something!
I spoke to my instructor today and he educated me on VFR flight following. Yes, they will provide advisories on a workload permitting basis but that does not mean it relieves the pilot of see and avoid.
OK, as far as altitude goes. The controller can assign an altitude or altitude restriction that may not be in accordance with the VFR cruising altitude rule but if they say pilots discretion, you still have to comply with VFR cruising altitudes.
See, I learned something!
JOhnH
Touchdown! Greaser!
OP here, and I have to say that I am glad it wasn't a totally stupid question in that there are various opinions. But I'm also glad to hear that I was (probably) right.
And by the way, as I do several times a year, I have to remind people that I am not a pilot. I had my medical pulled 40+ years ago. But my wife is a proficient IFR pilot and I guess I am her maintenance officer, co-owner of our Bonanza and unofficial co-pilot.
And by the way, as I do several times a year, I have to remind people that I am not a pilot. I had my medical pulled 40+ years ago. But my wife is a proficient IFR pilot and I guess I am her maintenance officer, co-owner of our Bonanza and unofficial co-pilot.
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
Lot of respect for you posting that.
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Ari
…and for asking an instructor, not to mention having an open mind. There are a LOT of shenanigans out there that start with a misunderstanding of how things work that we let get ingrained to the point we think it’s the actual rule. This is not only about flying. Always be confident enough to consider that you can be wrong.
On flight following, I’m no expert. I don’t use it often. But I think if you are on it and tell ATC you are changing altitudes, their response of “altitude your discretion” is just a polite way of reminding you that you’re not on an assigned altitude and they don’t much care what you do as long as you follow the rules.
MajorTurbulence
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Let’s say I’m in class E and on FF and controller said altitude at your discretion. There is a ceiling at 5.5K as I’m traveling eastbound. I’m 4.5 AGL. I call ATC and ask if it’s OK if I stay at 5K eastbound because of the ceiling and he said it’s OK. Does that make it legal to fly inspite of the VFR altitude rule?
91.159 does say "unless otherwise authorized by ATC" in the first paragraph.
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Velocity173
I suppose that would depend on if ATC specifically used “approved.” I would consider that legal by 91.159.
Now can ATC authorize a deviation from 91.159 in class E is a whole other issue. There’s nothing in their order that allows that. As I stated earlier, the only time a deviation from 91.159 is specifically authorized is in TRSA, C and B. Even then, it doesn’t mention anything about weather. It’s only for separation purposes while in airspace that requires separation for VFRs.
Just an FYI... even being on an IFR flight plan does not relieve the Pilot of see and avoid obligations. Here's the reg...
When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft.
Bill Watson
En-Route
Daleandee
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Dale Andee
I thank you for taking the time to give clarification to these questions.
Does fact that TRSA is non-regulatory airspace have any bearing on this at all? I don't see how it could as when on FF the pilot has availed themselves of the radar services. Sorry if the question is stupid but I may not know what I don't know.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
For those who want to see what the Controllers rules are, here is TRSA. C and B are the same except for what amounts to just editorial changes. If you want see them exactly, ask, I'll post them.
7−7−5. ALTITUDE ASSIGNMENTS
a. Altitude information contained in a clearance, instruction, or advisory to VFR aircraft must meet MVA, MSA, or minimum IFR altitude criteria.
b. If required, issue altitude assignments, consistent with the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.119.
NOTE−
The MSAs are:
1. Over congested areas, an altitude at least 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle; and
2. Over other than congested areas, an altitude at least 500 feet above the surface.
c. When necessary to assign an altitude for separation purposes to VFR aircraft contrary to 14 CFR Section 91.159, advise the aircraft to resume altitudes appropriate for the direction of flight when the altitude assignment is no longer needed for separation or when leaving the TRSA.
PHRASEOLOGY−
RESUME APPROPRIATE VFR ALTITUDES.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
No. That a TRSA is non-regulatory airspace just means that you aren't forced to use the service. You don't have to get permission to be in a TRSA like you do in B or C either through clearance or establishment of communication.
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Velocity173
I don’t think is has anything to do with being non regulatory. While an optional service in the TRSA, aircraft are simply subject to services if they choose to contact ATC. Kinda like the outer area of a C. You’re not required to contact ATC in that area but if you do, services such as separation are provided.
Daleandee
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Dale Andee
Thanks. I knew that participation was not required in the TSRA.
Daleandee
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Appreciate the feedback!
Vance Breese
Cleared for Takeoff
§ 91.159 VFR cruising altitude or flight level.
Except while holding in a holding pattern of 2 minutes or less, or while turning, each person operating an aircraft under VFR in level cruising flight more than 3,000 feet above the surface shall maintain the appropriate altitude or flight level prescribed below, unless otherwise authorized by ATC:
I am trying to keep up with the divergence of opinions and they appear to me to be rooted in just what; “unless otherwise authorized by ATC” means.
I interpret “altitude at your discretion” to be otherwise authorized by ATC.
Except while holding in a holding pattern of 2 minutes or less, or while turning, each person operating an aircraft under VFR in level cruising flight more than 3,000 feet above the surface shall maintain the appropriate altitude or flight level prescribed below, unless otherwise authorized by ATC:
I am trying to keep up with the divergence of opinions and they appear to me to be rooted in just what; “unless otherwise authorized by ATC” means.
I interpret “altitude at your discretion” to be otherwise authorized by ATC.
dmspilot
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That's if ATC is even being quoted correctly. I normally hear, "VFR altitude your discretion". That seems like an explicit instruction to comply with 91.159 to me.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Little something to add to that. You can be in a TRSA and tell the Controller "negative TRSA service."
coma24
Line Up and Wait
"resume appropriate VFR altitudes" is normally used to remove any previously-issued restrictions. "VFR altitude your discretion" is generally a polite way of saying, "thanks, but I just checked, twice, and it turns out I don't care."
You will often hear VFR pilots 'requesting' an altitude in Class E airspace. It's a poorly-phrased call. If anything, you should ADVISE ATC what altitude you're climbing/descending to, and generally only if they've said, "advise prior to any altitude changes." They will often do this if you're just above the floor, or just below the ceiling, of their airspace, or if there are potential conflicts with IFR aircraft (with whom they do NOT provide separation, but, by habit, they still try to proactively keep apart) if you were to change altitude.
Separation of VFR aircraft is one of the most frequently misunderstood concepts. It's not taught well during primary training. Radar separation for VFR aircraft is provided in Class Bravo, and to VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches (unless the controller states no separation services are being provided). Those are pretty narrow cases in the scheme of things. See and avoid is still king. They'll help you see, for sure, but it's generally all on you.
Joe, I'm glad you got it sorted, that was tough to read early on.
You will often hear VFR pilots 'requesting' an altitude in Class E airspace. It's a poorly-phrased call. If anything, you should ADVISE ATC what altitude you're climbing/descending to, and generally only if they've said, "advise prior to any altitude changes." They will often do this if you're just above the floor, or just below the ceiling, of their airspace, or if there are potential conflicts with IFR aircraft (with whom they do NOT provide separation, but, by habit, they still try to proactively keep apart) if you were to change altitude.
Separation of VFR aircraft is one of the most frequently misunderstood concepts. It's not taught well during primary training. Radar separation for VFR aircraft is provided in Class Bravo, and to VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches (unless the controller states no separation services are being provided). Those are pretty narrow cases in the scheme of things. See and avoid is still king. They'll help you see, for sure, but it's generally all on you.
Joe, I'm glad you got it sorted, that was tough to read early on.
Well, I'm one of those who thinks "common sense" is an oxymoron. There are definitely people who are convinced they don't have to see and avoid when under IFR. It's an underpinning of the argument we regularly see that if you are in actual you can put on a hood without a safety pilot.
Larry in TN
En-Route
AIM 4-1-15 RADAR Traffic Information Service
b. Provisions of service
2. When receiving VFR radar advisory service, ... Pilots should also inform the controller when changing VFR cruising altitude. ...
The reasons behind this is discussed in Don Brown's AvWeb article at the following link.
https://www.avweb.com/features/say-again-3atc-101/
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah. Unfortunately, every now and then a Controller will respond with a snotty attitude when you do that. Fortunately, not that often though. All a Controller need say is 'roger' instead of getting all wordy this 'at your discretion' stuff.
EDIT: this usually starts with the pilot requesting altitude change instead of just informing the controller. Read on
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Y’know, ATC would probably never say that if they realized just how little discretion I have....
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Ari
I don’t really blame them. With all the misconceptions about flight following, I can understand ATC thinking that not saying “altitude your discretion” could give a pilot the idea that he is on an assigned altitude.
Larry in TN
En-Route
Too bad more of them don't read the AIM so they'd know what pilots are told to do.
That's the controller's problem, not mine.
Bill Watson
En-Route
I’m thinking that really only happens when an altitude is requested:
“…4500 requesting 6500”
Instead of stated:
“…4500 climbing 6500”
When the altitude is in fact, at the pilot’s discretion.
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