If the controller assigned an altitude or a block (like "remain at or below") he wasn't wrong.
Altitude Directives in VFR Flight Following
- Thread starter JTFlyer
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Lindberg
Final Approach
That just means that they shouldn't assign an altitude contrary to the VFR cruising altitudes outside of the Class B. Note that it doesn't say all aircraft assigned altitudes.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Please identify the paragraphs that give ATC the authority to assign altitudes to VFR aircraft outside of Class B, Class C, and TRSA services and state the purpose for it.
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Hang 4
How about one that says they can't? Without digging into all the regs, Class D and E are controlled airspace and regs say you must follow ATC instructions. Obviously if that instruction puts you into a cloud or a mountain, then you can "unable", but otherwise you're supposed to.
roncachamp
Final Approach
What would be the purpose of assigning an altitude to a VFR aircraft where Class B, Class C, or TRSA services are not provided?
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Supereri
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Supereri
I flew 350 miles each way from Phoenix to north of LA over the past few days. I picked up flight following within 5 miles of my departure airport and held it until getting transferred to tower each direction. I received a few altitude restrictions (7500 instead of my requested 9500) and a few stay north of KONT or instructions to alter course to allow for traffic. All told it's completely worth it to me and I'm happy to accommodate to help make traffic flow smoother and safer. I've personally always found the FF controllers between PHX and LA to be super helpful and pleasant to deal with. I'm sure that's not the case everywhere, just my fortunate experience.
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Llewtrah
Serious question: has anyone experienced or heard of someone being told to call a number or been subject to an official action for not complying with an ATC directive while on FF outside of B/C/D?
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Classic. And not that far off from reality. Wish I had a few bucks for every time I’ve heard that discussion in real life at work.
Lindberg
Final Approach
As just one example, to keep you well below arrivals that are at or beneath the bottom of the Class B shelf.
masloki
Pattern Altitude
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Nunya
I miss @Radar Contact for conversations like this. At the end of the day, controllers are having good or bad days, VFR pilots are having good or bad days; usually it works out and sometimes it doesn’t. I accepted two directions for lower by C90 and they both worked out fine but I had a very hot and bumpy ride on one, and lost my glide distance to terra firma on the other. O’Hare can land on 3 runways, I don’t think I was a real issue outside of logistics on the west side. Midway is trickier, but I think if they had worked the ifr arrival a tiny bit, I’d kept my safety margin, and the arrival would have had no issues. Hold the King Air at the altitude until they could maintain VFR separation. It was GA inbound, not one of those airlines that will never accept visual separation.
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Velocity173
Yeah it’s different these days though. I applied the rules more literally like @roncachamp is getting at. My job wasn’t to separate VFRs in class E so there was no reason to initiate a vector or assign an altitude. That’s the crux of what basic radar services is. To “flight follow” the aircraft. Meaning, to watch them and when things get close, there are procedures in place (traffic call / safety alert) to address that.
What I see these days with controllers, is a more heavy handed approach. Not just heavy handed but giving priority to the wrong aircraft. Just because you’re working an airliner doesn’t mean you can’t move them around the VFR vs moving the VFR around the airliner. Similar to what happened at HOU years ago with the SR22 issued multiple go arounds. While she should've have had the ability to do go arounds all day, the controllers gave priority to other aircraft where it doesn’t exist.
Another thing I see is just bad and excessive vectoring. Plenty of times they waste air time where a vector isn’t necessary. Drove my brother nuts at his facility. The new guys would use the vector function on the scope because they couldn’t “manually” vector to save their lives. Same thing with traffic calls. I don’t know how many times I’ve gotten a traffic call with “probably will be no factor” attached at the end. Well if it’s not going to be a factor, why waste the air time issuing the call? Then there are the times I get uncomfortably close to an aircraft and get no traffic call. It’s just a mix match in the quality of ATC service these days.
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roncachamp
Final Approach
Wouldn't that be better achieved by expanding the Class B airspace? As it is, according to your position, VFR pilots can only be kept out of that airspace if they request flight following and surrender operation of their aircraft to ATC. Pilots who don't request that service are free to transit that airspace. Making that airspace Class B eliminates all VFR aircraft.
What are some other examples?
roncachamp
Final Approach
I was introduced to the vector function at RTF in 1985. The instructor was from Albuquerque center. Never saw it at ZAU before or after. If I had tried that with 50 aircraft on frequency my next facility would have been a VFR tower.
Steamflyer
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Steamflyer
This thread has been discussed it seems for 30+ years on the net forums.
If you request FF you are now in the system. Pretty much have to follow ATC instructions; cancelling FF is generally not a get out of jail free card since you opted in in the first place. Once VFR altitude AND course are your discretion (“maintain VFR”) then you can cancel FF if ATC engagement is not required for the airspace presently in.
Doesn’t mean you can’t negotiate however - “need higher for terrain” “need lower for cloud clearance” etc. We don’t negotiate speeds in light GA because we don’t have any, but in jets you can try that too.
If you request FF you are now in the system. Pretty much have to follow ATC instructions; cancelling FF is generally not a get out of jail free card since you opted in in the first place. Once VFR altitude AND course are your discretion (“maintain VFR”) then you can cancel FF if ATC engagement is not required for the airspace presently in.
Doesn’t mean you can’t negotiate however - “need higher for terrain” “need lower for cloud clearance” etc. We don’t negotiate speeds in light GA because we don’t have any, but in jets you can try that too.
roncachamp
Final Approach
What's the penalty for declining ATC instructions if ATC engagement is not required for the airspace presently in?
Lindberg
Final Approach
I had that happen once, when I got uncomfortably close to a 737. When I mentioned it on frequency, the controller said, I terminated your radar services 10 minutes ago. I didn't hear that, live ATC didn't pick it up, he didn't seem to notice notice I was still on my assigned squawk, and he didn't call me out as traffic for the airliner....
Lindberg
Final Approach
The same as the penalty for declining ATC instructions in any other controlled airspace. This isn't hard. The applicable regulation states the airspace that you are required to follow ATC instructions in.
Loud bang, followed by shower of falling aircraft debris.
roncachamp
Final Approach
So the only limits to ATC authority over VFR aircraft in Class E airspace outside of Class B, Class C, or TRSA services are weather, terrain, or an emergency? Is that correct? Why then do these services exist? Are you basing your position solely on FAR 91.123(b) or do you have something else?
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Velocity173
That’s what the problem my brother witnessed with trainees. With a few aircraft they had the time to bring up the vector function, once traffic increased, there’s no time to use it. Then their vectors went to ****, along with their ability to seperate / sequence. Snowball effect.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Wouldn't those VFR aircraft who chose not to engage with ATC be affected the same way? Do you advocate eliminating Class E airspace?Loud bang, followed by shower of falling aircraft debris.
roncachamp
Final Approach
'Zackly.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
How does this 'vector function' thing work?
Lindberg
Final Approach
Why do you insist on repeatedly putting words in my mouth? The exception to 91.123(b) is literally spelled out in 91.123(b).
roncachamp
Final Approach
I'm just asking questions to better understand the situation. I prefer clarification over assumptions.
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Velocity173
Not sure. It came with the upgrade when they went to STARs. Center has had it for a long time but TRACONs are starting to get it. Apparently it take a few key strokes to do though. Doesn’t sound all that user friendly.
You probably used OD-58 scopes back in your Navy days. I remember it had a vector assist but it was completely unusable during any real traffic. Had to put the strobe on the center of the target, then spin the strobe around with the “fishing reel” lever on the right side of the scope. Impractical and I never used it unless I was bored.
I once was told to maintain a certain altitude while I was descending on FF for traffic as I was heading towards a Bravo airspace. I was still pretty new and sheepishly didn't ask if I was cleared into the bravo. A minute or two later I was told I just entered the bravo without a clearance. I apologized and repeated that my instructions were to maintain such and such altitude by him. He then cleared me and didn't make a big deal out of it but lesson learned, always verify if not sure.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Not all instructions. This discussion has focused on assigning altitudes to VFR aircraft. FAA Order 7110.65 does not address that directly for areas where Class B, Class C, or TRSA services are not provided, but it does with regard to vectoring.
5−6−1. APPLICATION
Vector aircraft:
a. In controlled airspace for separation, safety, noise abatement, operational advantage, confidence maneuver,
or when a pilot requests.
b. In Class G airspace only upon pilot request and as an additional service.
c. At or above the MVA or the minimum IFR altitude except as authorized for radar approaches, radar
departures, special VFR, VFR operations, or by paragraph 5−6−3, Vectors Below Minimum Altitude.
NOTE−
VFR aircraft not at an altitude assigned by ATC may be vectored at any altitude. It is the responsibility of the pilot to comply
with the applicable parts of CFR Title 14.
REFERENCE−
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 4−5−6, Minimum En Route Altitudes.
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 7−5−2, Priority.
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 7−5−4, Altitude Assignment.
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 7−7−5, Altitude Assignments.
14 CFR Section 91.119, Minimum Safe Altitudes: General.
d. In airspace for which you have control jurisdiction, unless otherwise coordinated.
e. So as to permit it to resume its own navigation within radar coverage.
f. Operating special VFR only within Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E surface areas.
g. Operating VFR at those locations where a special program is established, or when a pilot requests, or you
suggest and the pilot concurs.
REFERENCE−
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 4−4−1, Route Use.
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 7−2−1, Visual Separation.
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 7−5−3, Separation.
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 7−6−1, Application.
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 9−4−4, Separation Minima.
FAA Order JO 7210.3, Chapter 12, Section 1, Terminal VFR Radar Services.
7−6−1. APPLICATION
a. Basic radar services for VFR aircraft must include:
1. Safety alerts.
2. Traffic advisories.
3. Limited radar vectoring when requested by the pilot.
4. Sequencing at locations where procedures have been established for this purpose and/or when covered
by a LOA.
b. Apply the procedures contained in paragraph 7−1−3, Approach Control Service for VFR Arriving Aircraft,
when arriving VFR aircraft are handled by approach control and provide vectoring service in accordance with
Chapter 5, Radar, Section 7, Speed Adjustment, in addition to the radar services prescribed in paragraph 5−6−1,
Application, and paragraph 5−6−2, Methods.
REFERENCE−
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 2−1−16, Surface Areas.
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 7−6−1, Application.
FAA Order JO 7210.3, Chapter 12, Section 1, Terminal VFR Radar Services.
AIM, Para 4−1−18, Terminal Radar Services for VFR Aircraft.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Working from memories of 40+ years ago. In the center, you could enter a heading and a variable number of minutes to examine where it would put the aircraft. Never used it, waste of time.
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Albany Tom
I don't get the grief in this thread. You fly the airplane, the guy with the radar asks you to change altitude so you don't run into anything, you change altitude. Here in the busy NE, it's not a big deal. Now, if you're going to fly semi-circles around Boston or NYC class B, then yeah, I can see having to move around, but outside of that, here, it's just not a problem.
Most of the time on FF nobody asks about flight following. A couple of months ago, flying back from RI, ATC asks "XXX are you headed back up to 4500?", and I replied "Yes, when able" as we were under a broken ceiling for the next 30 miles or so. So he says "climb 4500 when able" to me, and to the other aircraft on an intercept course he gives a "maintain at or below 3500". And everybody lived happily ever after.
Maybe I'm being a jerk here, but if you're whining about ATC from the front, maybe you've reached the time when you should be riding in the back. I mean, I'm good with telling people to get off my lawn, but not while I'm flying.
Most of the time on FF nobody asks about flight following. A couple of months ago, flying back from RI, ATC asks "XXX are you headed back up to 4500?", and I replied "Yes, when able" as we were under a broken ceiling for the next 30 miles or so. So he says "climb 4500 when able" to me, and to the other aircraft on an intercept course he gives a "maintain at or below 3500". And everybody lived happily ever after.
Maybe I'm being a jerk here, but if you're whining about ATC from the front, maybe you've reached the time when you should be riding in the back. I mean, I'm good with telling people to get off my lawn, but not while I'm flying.
I'm fine with changing altitudes. I'm less fine with flying at 2000 feet over hilly terrain or open water, especially when there was no indication of an actual traffic conflict at the original altitude.
dmspilot
Final Approach
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DISPLAY NAME
Perhaps you could provide more details about the route, so we can try to figure out why this is happening.
I verify even when it seems obvious. Once I was cleared for a practice approach to a nearby airport. Flying the approach would bring me into the Bravo.
Me: Confirm cleared into the Class Bravo.
ATC: Oh yeah, I guess I gotta do that. Cleared into the Class Bravo.
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
Agree. Perhaps it was a non-elegant way of saying, "I didn't know you were changing altitudes." If you decide you need to deviate either laterally or vertically off of what you told ATC that you were planning to do, ATC would appreciate knowing about it. It makes a difference as far as traffic advisories go, and it also let's the controller update the computer to make sure your flight plan processes to the correct next sector/facility.
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
Recommend courtesy to tell ATC - sure. Assigned altitude, need to ask permission to change altitude - no.
And if an altitude is assigned (which is what the question sounded like) it means there’s a separation reason and you need to get the okay or it’s a deviation from the instructions.
Yes, if suddenly a cloud appears out of nowhere, apparently created right in front of you with no prior warning, you do what you need to.
Altitude not assigned, notifying of changes is courtesy.
Altitude not assigned but “advise prior to changes,” is instructed, notifying of changes in advance is required to give ATC an opportunity to say, “don’t.”
Altitude is assigned, obtaining permission for changes is required.
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That's my understanding also. Unfortunately, I've had the experience of being barked at by ATC after changing altitudes (busy frequency) even though "advise prior to changes" had never been said.