Lindberg
Final Approach
Point out the conflict, and I might try to reconcile it.
Altitude Directives in VFR Flight Following
- Thread starter JTFlyer
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Maybe not a good day to be flying that route.
roncachamp
Final Approach
If you can't see it, you damn sure can't reconcile it.
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Llewtrah
Must admit, I'm not following you either. Are you thinking that, since 91.3(a) says "The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft", they're not subject to ANY following regulations? That seems to be the case, since you're pointing out a "conflict". To me, it means I'm directly responsible for flying the plane in a way that complies with the regs and 91.123(b) sensibly says "Except in an emergency...", which allows me to make the best decision for the circumstances in an emergency. I appreciate a clarification of what you're trying to say.
As noted by midlife, this also includes Class E, which is much broader than the few you mentioned. ATC has responsibility for separating IFR traffic from everyone else there, too.
This thread is great discussion - and it kinda illustrates something that came up in a completely unrelated thread (the Chevron deference case): I think most regs come into existence in response to people doing things others thought they didn't think people needed telling not to do. I could easily imagine the FAA says enough is enough and starts expanding controlled airspace boundaries and restrictions because too many people took the "I can do what I want" approach to the point of risking others.
roncachamp
Final Approach
There are those who insist pilots must adhere to all ATC instructions while in controlled airspace, even instructions ATC is not authorized to issue.
It includes only that Class E airspace that is also a TRSA or the Outer Area of Class C airspace.
The FAA has really been good about that. The regulatory bounds of Class C airspace, for example, are much smaller than the actual arrival and departure routes being used; they don't even encompass all arrival fixes. The same can probably be said of Class B and most definitely about Class D.
And they typically give advance notice and sometimes meet with pilot groups when Class C or B boundaries are modified or established.
There is absolutely nothing regulatory saying a VFR pilot should keep out of the approach corridor protected above 700 AGL by the magenta vignette. But yeah, get enough pilots believing that being reasonably courteous is a violation of their fundamental rights, and things could change.
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This weekend I flew north to south across the departure corridor for charlotte. I did not get flight following as I knew they would make me go way out of my way. I was at 10.5k and I’m totally convinced they held a flight down just to try to teach me a lesson. It climbed like a rocket to 12k and then leveled off until it passed me and then started back up like a rocket again. If they’d kept it climbing it would have passed over me by 5-10k feet.
roncachamp
Final Approach
You feel they held a flight down to teach you a lesson but climbed it through your altitude?
Just to give me a bit of wake turbulence. Every other flight went higher sooner. I was watching too see if I would really be in the way and I wasn’t.
Lindberg
Final Approach
What's an example of an ATC instruction I don't have to follow in controlled airspace? And what's the authority saying I don't have to follow it?
roncachamp
Final Approach
Right. ATC's just out to get you.
roncachamp
Final Approach
ATC is not authorized to assign altitudes or issue altitude restrictions to VFR aircraft outside of Class B, Class C, or TRSA services. The authority for that is FAA Order 7110.65 Air Traffic Control.
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Llewtrah
Say “unable”. They probably also said “maintain VFR” somewhere in the conversation too. Even if they didn’t you’re VFR and unable.
cowtowner
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Cowtowner
The Finer Points had a podcast on this a few years ago. He did as the OP suggested, cancelled and when they didn’t cancel him he got mad and switched frequencies. He followed up and had a whole discussion why that was against the FAR’s.
I hate it coming back on FF into my airport under the bravo shelf from the north. They always drop me way down low in the bumps. I’ve learned to cancel with center before even getting to approach to avoid it
I hate it coming back on FF into my airport under the bravo shelf from the north. They always drop me way down low in the bumps. I’ve learned to cancel with center before even getting to approach to avoid it
My only complaint in a similar situation was that they held me high for so long that it was a challenge to avoid busting the bravo.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Change altitude. Under most circumstance, when VFR, they won't give you both a heading and attitude. Regardless, it's your responsibility to maintain VFR, so say, "unable," and tell them what you're going to do. Imminent inadvertent IFR is an emergency.
Lindberg
Final Approach
You didn't answer the second question, which was not the authority you're relying on for what ATC is instructed to do by the FAA, but rather, the authority that says I only have to follow certain instructions.
Approach control for the Class B nearest to me will absolutely give altitude restrictions to VFRs on FF outside the B.
roncachamp
Final Approach
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Velocity173
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
NTSB Interviewer: So controller Bob, you were talking to the King Air and watched as he flew into the path of 6 passenger jets? And refused his multiple requests to help him remain clear?
Controller Bob: Yes sir! Really bad outcome, but I followed the rules! Are you here to give me an award?
Controller Bob: Yes sir! Really bad outcome, but I followed the rules! Are you here to give me an award?
Lindberg
Final Approach
That says that as PIC I'm responsible for my decisions. It doesn't say I can do whatever I want. If that's what it meant, then every other regulation would be meaningless, and 91.3(b) would be superfluous.
FAA: Why did you fly through the FRZ?
PIC: Because I'm PIC, you can't tell me what to do!
Is there a specific section you're referring to?
Mileage
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Mileage
I guess I'm just of the mindset that believes Flight Following has advantages that far outweigh the disadvantages. One of the disadvantages is ATC will sometimes give me instructions that are inconvenient. I generally comply but sometimes there's a potential safety issue involved. As an example, when I approach Miami from the west, Approach will almost always ask me to be at or below 2000 over the Everglades, which is too low for me in terms of finding dry places to land in an emergency. So I ask for higher and they generally give it. My assumption that they don't have to think about me at 2000 whereas they now have to think about me but they are generally willing to do it.
My flight this weekend was vfr for 800 miles or so. I had to change my plan every 5 or 10 minutes for several hours of the flight to stay safe and out of the clouds. It would have made things much more complex for me to try to do that under flight following. I was on 121.5 the whole time.
I had to adjust altitude and direction almost constantly for a couple hundred miles. I think it would have been less safe for those miles if I were trying to coordinate with atc also.
The one time in the past that I had an issue that atc could have helped me with, I was on flight following and they did nothing but give me frequency changes while I’m working the problem making it worse. They refused to help with any of my requests to help find an appropriate airport or get frequencies or weather info for the airport that I found on my own.
I had to adjust altitude and direction almost constantly for a couple hundred miles. I think it would have been less safe for those miles if I were trying to coordinate with atc also.
The one time in the past that I had an issue that atc could have helped me with, I was on flight following and they did nothing but give me frequency changes while I’m working the problem making it worse. They refused to help with any of my requests to help find an appropriate airport or get frequencies or weather info for the airport that I found on my own.
Mileage
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Mileage
In my experience in similar weather, ATC is very accommodating. They expect you to change headings and altitudes frequently. Sometime they ask the PIC to advise of altitude changes or to stay above or below a level but otherwise "altitude and heading your discretion" or just "maintain vfr." The complications generally come closer to busy airports
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
Ever have someone ask for your help / opinion, and then respond by telling you you're wrong?
Ever ask ATC for Flight Following to help you with your VFR flight, and when they give you advice based on the wider / bigger picture they have, you .................
Ever ask ATC for Flight Following to help you with your VFR flight, and when they give you advice based on the wider / bigger picture they have, you .................
I’ve used it plenty of times. I’m very familiar with how it works. Quite frequently they are more trouble than helpful. I’m also ifr rated and have many hours flying in the system. I’m not afraid to talk to atc. But I also have experience that shows me it’s often not worth it.
It also depends on where you are and who you are talking to. In more congested areas, they rarely give you "altitude and heading your discretion" for hundreds of miles.
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kgruber
Final Approach
It OFTEN is much easier to just go IFR
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
IF you're IFR rated and current (edit: and also in an IFR rated plane), I can't think of any reason to fly X Country without filing an IFR plan. If you're not IFR rated/current, then I'd say always get F Following.
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roncachamp
Final Approach
roncachamp
Final Approach
Flight following, by itself, is traffic advisories and safety alerts. Controllers can suggest headings or altitudes but they cannot assign them.
They can also request you update them if you change altitude or heading, which can be a burden if the system is busy.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Oh, are you the FAA chief counsel?
Deals with Class B operations, and most assuredly contemplates giving vectors and altitudes to VFRs.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Yes, that's appropriate in Class B airspace. You said, "Approach control for the Class B nearest to me will absolutely give altitude restrictions to VFRs on FF outside the B."
7-9-7. ALTITUDE ASSIGNMENTS
a. Altitude information contained in a clearance, instruction, or advisory to VFR aircraft must meet MVA,
MSA, or minimum IFR altitude criteria.
b. Issue altitude assignments, if required, consistent with the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.119.
NOTE-
The MSAs are:
1. Over congested areas, an altitude at least 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle,
2. Over other than congested areas, an altitude at least 500 feet above the surface.
REFERENCE-
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 4-5-2, Flight Direction.
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 4-5-3, Exceptions.
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 4-5-6, Minimum En Route Altitudes.
c. Aircraft assigned altitudes which are contrary to 14 CFR Section 91.159 must be advised to resume altitudes
appropriate for the direction of flight when the altitude assignment is no longer required or when leaving Class
B airspace.
PHRASEOLOGY-
RESUME APPROPRIATE VFR ALTITUDES.
Whether they are allowed to or not, many expect it and get very testy if you deviate.
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Hang 4
You can tell ATC you are changing altitude under FF. "123XY, VFR descent to XXX to maintain clear of clouds". I've never had an issue with that using FF. Doing something dramatic without telling them is not the best idea. They are assuming you are maintaining heading and altitude, unless you told them something different when starting (doing maneuvers in the practice area for example).
If they tell you to be at an altitude or to change heading or altitude it's now an instruction and unless there's a very compelling reason not to, you have to do what they say. If you pull the "unable" card, I'd add the why to that (remain clear of clouds, terrain clearance etc.). Or if there's something you'd rather do, just ask.
It's really not that big of a deal, except around some of the Class B areas.
If they tell you to be at an altitude or to change heading or altitude it's now an instruction and unless there's a very compelling reason not to, you have to do what they say. If you pull the "unable" card, I'd add the why to that (remain clear of clouds, terrain clearance etc.). Or if there's something you'd rather do, just ask.
It's really not that big of a deal, except around some of the Class B areas.
It depends on the direction of travel. I generally agree, except (for example) when flying from western New England to eastern NJ. The most direct route is over the top of the Bravo, but the IFR routing (below 18k) will almost always be around it.
roncachamp
Final Approach
If you were receiving only flight following, you were not receiving Class B, Class C, or TRSA services, ATC cannot assign an altitude or an altitude restriction to a VFR aircraft.
The bold is the best part of your answer.
Yes, "request" while you are still negotiating, but "tell" when that has failed.