Alternator Core Reject

[keysas]

Does anyone have experience with how to handle an alternator core rejected for rebuild?
The story thus far:
- I purchased a Falcon Chrysler alternator from Aircraft Spruce to replace same alternator in my Piper Arrow II. It had started to show inconsistent charging output and was near failure (but still working).
- I was billed for the alternator and a core return charge of $200. So far, standard procedure.
- I replaced the alternator and returned the core under an RMA. A credit of $200 was provided to my credit card. Again, standard procedure.
- Three months later, I was surprised with a notification from Aircraft Spruce that the "factory" rejected the core for rebuild and Aircraft Spruce would need to reverse the $200 core credit (plus $16.00 in tax). They requested to have my credit card number so that the charge can be applied.
- I called Aircraft Spruce and asked why the reject on an operating alternator. They did not know why, but needed to reverse the core credit. When asked about the core location, the response was that the factory still has it.
So my question is: how does the factory get to reject the core, yet still keep it? And I get charged $216.00 without anything to show for it? Am I wrong to be troubled by this practice?

 

[Lindberg]

Does anyone have experience with how to handle an alternator core rejected for rebuild?
The story thus far:
- I purchased a Falcon Chrysler alternator from Aircraft Spruce to replace same alternator in my Piper Arrow II. It had started to show inconsistent charging output and was near failure (but still working).
- I was billed for the alternator and a core return charge of $200. So far, standard procedure.
- I replaced the alternator and returned the core under an RMA. A credit of $200 was provided to my credit card. Again, standard procedure.
- Three months later, I was surprised with a notification from Aircraft Spruce that the "factory" rejected the core for rebuild and Aircraft Spruce would need to reverse the $200 core credit (plus $16.00 in tax). They requested to have my credit card number so that the charge can be applied.
- I called Aircraft Spruce and asked why the reject on an operating alternator. They did not know why, but needed to reverse the core credit. When asked about the core location, the response was that the factory still has it.
So my question is: how does the factory get to reject the core, yet still keep it? And I get charged $216.00 without anything to show for it? Am I wrong to be troubled by this practice?

Not wrong to be troubled by it. I wouldn't give them any money, under any circumstances, until i had that alternator back with a compete explanation for the rejection. I'd also want to see documentation of the requirement that the core be approved by the factory and that they can wait three months. From where I sit, it seems you had a deal with Spruce to return a core and Spruce accepted that core. Now they want to revoke that acceptance for "unknown" reasons. Poppycock.

 

[Bell206]

Three months later, I was surprised with a notification from Aircraft Spruce that the "factory" rejected the core for rebuild

Maybe review their core return policy. Since they issued an RMA and accepted it unless their policy states otherwise I think they own it and the core charge. Also look to see if there is any time limit on returning a core. Most are 30 or 60 days and since they took 90 days to get back to you I say they broke their own policy if it is less. I'd argue the point but nicely and make them keep it.

 

[Gary Ward]

Does anyone have experience with how to handle an alternator core rejected for rebuild?
The story thus far:
- I purchased a Falcon Chrysler alternator from Aircraft Spruce to replace same alternator in my Piper Arrow II. It had started to show inconsistent charging output and was near failure (but still working).
- I was billed for the alternator and a core return charge of $200. So far, standard procedure.
- I replaced the alternator and returned the core under an RMA. A credit of $200 was provided to my credit card. Again, standard procedure.
- Three months later, I was surprised with a notification from Aircraft Spruce that the "factory" rejected the core for rebuild and Aircraft Spruce would need to reverse the $200 core credit (plus $16.00 in tax). They requested to have my credit card number so that the charge can be applied.
- I called Aircraft Spruce and asked why the reject on an operating alternator. They did not know why, but needed to reverse the core credit. When asked about the core location, the response was that the factory still has it.
So my question is: how does the factory get to reject the core, yet still keep it? And I get charged $216.00 without anything to show for it? Am I wrong to be troubled by this practice?

Yes that sucks for you and I would feel the same way.
But unfortunately this what happens when you deal with a middleman.
I like AS and buy a lot from them. Do I think they are perfect? no, no one is. Their good service makes it hard not to pickup the phone and order and be done with it.

But for rebuilt items I like to deal who does the rebuilding so when these things come up it is easier to understand.

FWIW Aerotech of Louisville Ky rebuilt a ford style alternator for me a couple years ago. Since they were 1.5 hours from me and my wife was going there for antique shopping trip I asked if we could pick it up. She dropped off our old one and picked up the rebuilt one on a Monday morning at about 11AM. She said they took a quick look at our old one and sent her on her way with the rebuilt one.
I got great service from them and the alternator as I have almost 500 hrs on it now.
I called on a Sat morning, they answered the phone and said he had a core on the shelf that he could rebuild Monday morning. I said great go ahead with it but had my doubts it would get done that fast. I called back early Monday morning and the lady said it was being rebuilt at that time. She called me back at about 10:30am and said it is ready for pickup. Wife was there less than an hour later and it was ready. Seemed to be real nice people to deal with. Polite to my wife and did what they said they would do. I put it on the plane that afternoon and flew it that night. Can't get much quicker better service than that.

Sorry for your trouble.

 

[Gary Ward]

If you made them keep it you might have trouble getting parts in the future?

 

[Jeff Oslick]

From Spruce's website:

Every manufacturer has different policies regarding what is acceptable for core returns. Unless prior authorization is obtained from an Aircraft Spruce Customer Service representative, all cores must be "Like" part numbers and must be in repairable condition. We are no longer able to accept unrepairable cores.

All core returns must be returned with the core label provided at the time of purchase, or must clearly reference our Core RMA number on paperwork inside the box. The customer will be responsible for all fees assessed by the manufacturer for substandard or unlike cores. All cores must be returned within 60 days of the original ship date. If you did not receive a Core label referencing the RMA number for the core return, please contact our Customer Service department for assistance.

Any unit being returned for core credit shall be in the same condition as removed from the engine and/or aircraft. Cores must be complete and cannot be disassembled. Units that are rusty, corroded, or cannot be overhauled for any reason, will be classified as scrap, having no value. A percentage of the core value will be deducted for all missing or damaged parts. At no time will the damaged or missing parts charge on any unit exceed the core value of that unit.

Seems there is vagueness here, but you are at least owed a specific explanation of why your core was not accepted.

 

[luvflyin]

Does anyone have experience with how to handle an alternator core rejected for rebuild?
The story thus far:
- I purchased a Falcon Chrysler alternator from Aircraft Spruce to replace same alternator in my Piper Arrow II. It had started to show inconsistent charging output and was near failure (but still working).
- I was billed for the alternator and a core return charge of $200. So far, standard procedure.
- I replaced the alternator and returned the core under an RMA. A credit of $200 was provided to my credit card. Again, standard procedure.
- Three months later, I was surprised with a notification from Aircraft Spruce that the "factory" rejected the core for rebuild and Aircraft Spruce would need to reverse the $200 core credit (plus $16.00 in tax). They requested to have my credit card number so that the charge can be applied.
- I called Aircraft Spruce and asked why the reject on an operating alternator. They did not know why, but needed to reverse the core credit. When asked about the core location, the response was that the factory still has it.
So my question is: how does the factory get to reject the core, yet still keep it? And I get charged $216.00 without anything to show for it? Am I wrong to be troubled by this practice?

I dunno. But I do know I wouldn't authorize the reversal until I got a satisfactory explanation of WTF is going on.

 

[frfly172]

If they are going to reject it ,I would think they would send it back to you. Thanks for the heads up .doesn’t make for good customer relationships.

 

[Gary Ward]

Shipping is too expensive to send junk back. IMO
Wondering if the OP wanted to pay to have it shipped back if they would even know which one it is days or weeks later?

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Call Falcon Aero in Arizona and ask them. That's the "factory."

Buying a Falcon was your first mistake. Ask me how I know.

P.S. Spruce is worthless when it comes to warranties. Also ask me how I know.

 

[jbrrapa]

I dunno. But I do know I wouldn't authorize the reversal until I got a satisfactory explanation of WTF is going on.

I would never authorize the reversal. They received the core from the OP and thus he complied with his obligation. Obviously, any core provided under these conditions is not in the best of shape. If it were in good shape, the OP would have had no reason to buy another alternator.

 

[William Pete Hodges]

I went through 3 alternators about 2005 - 2006. The rotors were going bad and they had not been replacing or rewinding them during the rebuild. I ended up replacing the alternator 3 times and paid full price every time. I was not happy, but when I finally got a good one my troubles ended.

I agree that they should provide you with a reason the core was rejected. They should also have published core acceptance/rejection guidelines. This should not be a trade secret, but most people don't look it up beforehand.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I wonder how many times this will happen before ASSCo changes their procedure on this?

 

[FORANE]

Take it as a nudge to jump ship. Come on over to the Darkside. Get an experimental. My alternator is currently up to $38 with free shipping Amazon prime and no core bs.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Take it as a nudge to jump ship. Come on over to the Darkside. Get an experimental. My alternator is currently up to $38 with free shipping Amazon prime and no core bs.

Obviously, you are not riding behind a Rotax.

 

[FORANE]

Obviously, you are not riding behind a Rotax.

No rotax experience though I hear good things about them. Are there no hacks developed by experimental rotax users for low cost alternators?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

No rotax experience though I hear good things about them. Are there no hacks developed by experimental rotax users for low cost alternators?

OK, apologies for hijacking the thread...
The Rotax comes with lighting coils under the flywheel for the main electrical source. An actual alternator is an option that bolts to the gearbox (I don't have one). But the comment was about Rotax parts in general. There may be hacks for some parts - say the $82.46 radiator cap, but I haven't found them.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I went through 3 alternators about 2005 - 2006. The rotors were going bad and they had not been replacing or rewinding them during the rebuild. I ended up replacing the alternator 3 times and paid full price every time. I was not happy, but when I finally got a good one my troubles ended.

Rotors don't get rewound and I'm sure not many are replaced at rebuild. Much too expensive. The typical wear point are the slip rings that the brushes ride on, and those aren't very thick and can only be cut down so many times. A rebuilder that just polishes them up to get another exchange out of a rotor is a cheating rebuilder. Those worn rings will eat the brushes faster. Another mistake they make: too much grease in the rear bearing, and it squeezes out and gets onto the slip rings, gumming them up and limiting field current and therefore alternator output. Kelly has been famous for that. For years.

We did the 500-hour brush inspections faithfully on the school's fleet. In the shop. I had the Electrosystems manual to make it legal, and to refer to, of course, and had a small inventory of brushes and bearings. Dress the slip rings in the lathe if they need it, replaces the brushes, make sure the bearings are still quiet or replace them, and put it back to work. Our alternators had many thousands of hours on them.

 

[Eagle_]

Wow, never heard of an alternator core that wasn’t accepted. Maybe you could try to find someone who is about to ship a core engine to a factory or overhaul shop and ask if you could swap alternators.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Wow, never heard of an alternator core that wasn’t accepted. Maybe you could try to find someone who is about to ship a core engine to a factory or overhaul shop and ask if you could swap alternators.

Very few engines come with alternators. The only ones I ever received with an alternator, from Lycomng, were the O-235s. All the rest were without.

Besides that, an alternator swap just means you're getting another old alternator, perhaps with an unknown inspection history.

 

[Eagle_]

Very few engines come with alternators. The only ones I ever received with an alternator, from Lycomng, were the O-235s. All the rest were without.

Besides that, an alternator swap just means you're getting another old alternator, perhaps with an unknown inspection history.

yeah that was kind off the whole point, so you would have another that would most likely be accepted.

 

[keysas]

Here's a follow-up message to my Original Post...
- I contacted Aircraft Spruce about the reverse core credit for the rejected alternator core and eventually came to the agreement to pay the $216 so long as I get the original core back.
- The Aircraft Spruce sales representative said this happens nearly daily. The factory rejects the core but doesn't return it mostly because of shipping costs. If I agree to pay shipping, the factory will send it back.
- I received the core at my doorstep a few days ago. I opened the box and found what seems to be my original alternator. I have not yet found a charge on my card for shipping. Maybe I'll get lucky and benefit from someone's forgetfulness (?).
- Along with the returned core, there was a shipping form that had the handwritten words "AUTO ALT. - NO CREDIT - RETURN TO CUSTOMER"

My lessons learned:
- The "factory" is indeed Falcon Aero of Mesa, AZ as suggested by NealRomeoGolf. From the note on the form, I'm guessing that they (incorrectly) determined the core to be from an auto and I was attempting to submit a lesser valued alternator as a core for an aero alternator. That still seems a little weird since the alternator I installed on my Piper (with A&P mechanic oversight and approval) has EXACTLY the same cast casing as the core I removed from my Arrow and tried to return.
- In hind sight, I should have either a) gone with a Plane Power alternator or b) made a call to Aerotech in Louisville to see what they could do for me in terms of rebuild. I have family in Louisville and a visit would save shipping.
- I am now far more leery of Aviation Spruce.
- I have a great looking alternator core to decorate a portion of my hangar shelving.

Thanks for all the great insights!!!

 

[FORANE]

I would take your old one and see if I could get it overhauled as a spare to keep on the shelf. You never know when you will need a replacement.

 

[schmookeeg]

From the note on the form, I'm guessing that they (incorrectly) determined the core to be from an auto and I was attempting to submit a lesser valued alternator as a core for an aero alternator. That still seems a little weird since the alternator I installed on my Piper (with A&P mechanic oversight and approval) has EXACTLY the same cast casing as the core I removed from my Arrow and tried to return.

Was your core from an auto? It had an aviation data plate on it?

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Here's a follow-up message to my Original Post...
- I contacted Aircraft Spruce about the reverse core credit for the rejected alternator core and eventually came to the agreement to pay the $216 so long as I get the original core back.
- The Aircraft Spruce sales representative said this happens nearly daily. The factory rejects the core but doesn't return it mostly because of shipping costs. If I agree to pay shipping, the factory will send it back.
- I received the core at my doorstep a few days ago. I opened the box and found what seems to be my original alternator. I have not yet found a charge on my card for shipping. Maybe I'll get lucky and benefit from someone's forgetfulness (?).
- Along with the returned core, there was a shipping form that had the handwritten words "AUTO ALT. - NO CREDIT - RETURN TO CUSTOMER"

My lessons learned:
- The "factory" is indeed Falcon Aero of Mesa, AZ as suggested by NealRomeoGolf. From the note on the form, I'm guessing that they (incorrectly) determined the core to be from an auto and I was attempting to submit a lesser valued alternator as a core for an aero alternator. That still seems a little weird since the alternator I installed on my Piper (with A&P mechanic oversight and approval) has EXACTLY the same cast casing as the core I removed from my Arrow and tried to return.
- In hind sight, I should have either a) gone with a Plane Power alternator or b) made a call to Aerotech in Louisville to see what they could do for me in terms of rebuild. I have family in Louisville and a visit would save shipping.
- I am now far more leery of Aviation Spruce.
- I have a great looking alternator core to decorate a portion of my hangar shelving.

Thanks for all the great insights!!!

After my alternator debacle with Spruce, I am no longer a customer.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Was your core from an auto? It had an aviation data plate on it?

That there. Same cast casing means little. Aircraft alternators have to meet certain minimal standards to get the TSO and certification. Sure, most auto alternators might meet that standard, but someone has to make sure it does, has to make paperwork, has to accept liability.

I have found filter capacitors inside aircraft alternators, across the brush terminals, that weren't present in the "same" auto alternator.

 

[Gary Ward]

That there. Same cast casing means little. Aircraft alternators have to meet certain minimal standards to get the TSO and certification. Sure, most auto alternators might meet that standard, but someone has to make sure it does, has to make paperwork, has to accept liability.

I have found filter capacitors inside aircraft alternators, across the brush terminals, that weren't present in the "same" auto alternator.

This is my thoughts as well, Did it have a data plate?
You can't blame your AP mechanic as he is just dealing with what was on the plane I am guessing?
This is where it seems logs and receipts come into play. To document where the part came from. People do stuff illegally and it is not caught until years and several owners later.
Not fair to blame Spruce or the rebuilder. You wouldn't want to buy a auto alt from a aircraft rebuilder...right? and pay for aircraft part and not get it.
Thanks for the follow up and I am not blaming you. Thanks for the education.

 

[MauleSkinner]

- The "factory" is indeed Falcon Aero of Mesa, AZ as suggested by NealRomeoGolf. From the note on the form, I'm guessing that they (incorrectly) determined the core to be from an auto and I was attempting to submit a lesser valued alternator as a core for an aero alternator. That still seems a little weird since the alternator I installed on my Piper (with A&P mechanic oversight and approval) has EXACTLY the same cast casing as the core I removed from my Arrow and tried to return.

As @Gary Ward indicated…how do you know this is an aero alternator core? The fact that you removed it from an airplane isn’t proof. The fact that it looks the same, or even has the same part number stamp, doesn’t mean it’s an aero alternator. It’s very possible that at some time in the past, somebody replaced it with one from an auto parts store BECAUSE it had the same part number.