Almost busted Bravo airspace

ahmad

ahmad

Pre-takeoff checklist
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477
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S Illinois
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Midwest Aviator
Beautiful day out here in S IL so I decided to go pick up some famous St. Louis style BBQ. Got there without any hiccups. On departure out of KCPS I was in the climb to to 5500. I was looking at foreflight zoomed too in and thinking I had cleared the B. At 4300 ft and still climbing at 1000 ft/min I realized the B shell I was under had the floor at 4500.
Crap, throttle idle and nose dive before I busted it. Tuned in to the approach frequency and was hoping I don't hear my call sign. It was close but I didn't bust in.

Lesson learned.
 
I don’t think a second would get you, gps altitude and altimeter are never the same either. You were within limits!
 
If you took GPS driven ForeFlight out of the equation, would you have been this concerned? ATC controllers are human, and "usually" apply common sense. Good catch, and a forever "note to self."
 
Better SA may be called for, but you were 200' from busting bravo. You could have been there intentionally and stayed there, and no one would have blinked.
 
I honestly wonder how many ASRS reports have busted airspace or did xyz due to paying too much attention to foreflight, ipad.
 
One of my "almosts" (or "maybe dids") happened when the GTN 650 database had an area where the bravo floor was 6000 swapped with the adjacent 8000-foot area. Since the 7GCAA Citabria was VFR-only, it took a while for the club to get around to taking my suggestion to buy a one-time update, but eventually they did. (Since the 7GCAA has more power than your average Citabria, it climbs really well!)
 
I almost did the same thing, climbing into the floor of the Charlotte bravo climbing out of JFQ. You think you’ll be clear, but you have to plan for it. Now, any time I’m under a bravo shelf, I’m aware.
 
TommyG said:
I honestly wonder how many ASRS reports have busted airspace or did xyz due to paying too much attention to foreflight, ipad.
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Even without ForeFlight, altitude busts (all types collectively, VFR or IFR) are the single most common type of pilot deviation.
 
PaulS said:
Two words for you, flight following. You should be using it near a bravo, controller probably would have let you in.
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Agree. I use FF all the time and it is great. I used it into KCPS but didn't utilize it on the way out and I could have.
 
squincher said:
Should have went up to Kansas City. Better BBQ and probably easier to get out.
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KC (Joe's bbq) has my 2nd favorite bbq joint. This one in st. Louis (puppy's smokehouse) is my #1. After visiting 100s I still have not found one that would measure up.
 
Sometimes the routing they give me to get into or out of the Bay Area is a real pain.
 
ahmad said:
Beautiful day out here in S IL so I decided to go pick up some famous St. Louis style BBQ. Got there without any hiccups. On departure out of KCPS I was in the climb to to 5500. I was looking at foreflight zoomed too in and thinking I had cleared the B. At 4300 ft and still climbing at 1000 ft/min I realized the B shell I was under had the floor at 4500.
Crap, throttle idle and nose dive before I busted it. Tuned in to the approach frequency and was hoping I don't hear my call sign. It was close but I didn't bust in.

Lesson learned.
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Glad it ended OK!

I had a similar thing happen in Chicago shortly after getting my license. I was climbing out of the south end of Chicago airspace and there was a thin cloud layer at my cruising altitude of 3500 (my final cruise outside B was 5500). So without giving proper consideration as to why I was at 3500 in the first place (airspace reasons, Bravo begins at 3600') I decided to begin my climb to 5500 to get above the little cloud layer. Then I had this momentary panic of "oh ****". I looked down and noticed I had entered the Bravo by a few hundred feet. Immediately descended out of it. Contacted approach and picked up FF and they didn't give me a number to write down, so everything ended OK. Filed a NASA report anywho. Haven't come close to making that mistake since!
 
A few years ago I was talking to a controller who says that he was concerned about people playing chicken with the DC ADIZ (now the SFRA). I asked what he meant. He said people would head straight for it and then turn away at the last second. I pointed out that this is usually my standard procedure for the ADIZ or the class B. I assume I'm going to get the clearance and only avoid the airspace if it doesn't come.

This came from being based at IAD for years so it was rare that I didn't just get to go in/thru when I requested it.
 
I once got a warning from a controller when I let my heading wander toward a nearby restricted area while I was getting out a sandwich. I would have caught it in time, but I appreciated his looking out for me nevertheless.
 
Palmpilot said:
I once got a warning from a controller when I let my heading wander toward a nearby restricted area while I was getting out a sandwich. I would have caught it in time, but I appreciated his looking out for me nevertheless.
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I was flying through the Baltimore class B once and they told me I needed to fly 220 because there was a TFR downtown. I had seen the NOTAM and I knew the reason was that the Pope was at one of the stadiums.

27K: 220, vectors for the Pope.
 
ahmad said:
Beautiful day out here in S IL so I decided to go pick up some famous St. Louis style BBQ. Got there without any hiccups. On departure out of KCPS I was in the climb to to 5500. I was looking at foreflight zoomed too in and thinking I had cleared the B. At 4300 ft and still climbing at 1000 ft/min I realized the B shell I was under had the floor at 4500.
Crap, throttle idle and nose dive before I busted it. Tuned in to the approach frequency and was hoping I don't hear my call sign.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure, so help me here - are you bragging?
 
Palmpilot said:
I once got a warning from a controller when I let my heading wander toward a nearby restricted area while I was getting out a sandwich. I would have caught it in time, but I appreciated his looking out for me nevertheless.
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That's an excellent controller to know that you were getting out a sandwich! ;)
 
flyingron said:
A few years ago I was talking to a controller who says that he was concerned about people playing chicken with the DC ADIZ (now the SFRA). I asked what he meant. He said people would head straight for it and then turn away at the last second. I pointed out that this is usually my standard procedure for the ADIZ or the class B. I assume I'm going to get the clearance and only avoid the airspace if it doesn't come.

This came from being based at IAD for years so it was rare that I didn't just get to go in/thru when I requested it.
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It is different if you are talking to them and seeking a clearance.

I think he was saying people were doing it and NOT talking.
 
I was a little confused about the different rings in the DC area, there’s the one that’s huge and says special training required. Think I figured it out but was a bit much to see at first, and takes up quite a huge chunk of airspace.
 
mandm said:
I was a little confused about the different rings in the DC area, there’s the one that’s huge and says special training required. Think I figured it out but was a bit much to see at first, and takes up quite a huge chunk of airspace.
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Even the inner two rings take up a big chunk of airspace. I pointed out to Jay Honeck a while back that more people live within the SFRA than his (then) entire state of Iowa.
 
mandm said:
I was a little confused about the different rings in the DC area, there’s the one that’s huge and says special training required. Think I figured it out but was a bit much to see at first, and takes up quite a huge chunk of airspace.
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Back before the SFRA, there was the Washington DC ADIZ. Lots of people who were operating to airports near but outside the ADIZ, or passing through the area were busting the airspace. After enough claims of “I didn’t know!” (Which really didn’t help the pilot’s cause) the overlords of the airspace created an even larger ring to limit speeds and require training so that airspace violators operating nearby couldn’t claim they didn’t know. The ring for required training was orig)ally proposed as 100nm but got enacted as 60nm.
 
Brad Z said:
Back before the SFRA, there was the Washington DC ADIZ. Lots of people who were operating to airports near but outside the ADIZ, or passing through the area were busting the airspace. After enough claims of “I didn’t know!” (Which really didn’t help the pilot’s cause) the overlords of the airspace created an even larger ring to limit speeds and require training so that airspace violators operating nearby couldn’t claim they didn’t know. The ring for required training was orig)ally proposed as 100nm but got enacted as 60nm.
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And the previously skyrocketing rate of small-plane attacks on DC has since plummeted.
 
A frequent wintertime problem, out climbing airspace because of the denser air. Not a problem in summer because the aircraft doesn't climb as well.
 
Lindberg said:
And the previously skyrocketing rate of small-plane attacks on DC has since plummeted.
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As someone who's based inside the flight restriction zone, we tend not to thumb our noses in how useless the flight restrictions are, lest we be subjected to a new round of "more effective" flight restrictions.

Thing with USSS, they're not a democracy. Letters and phone calls from Congress don't sway them. The entirety of DHS has unfortunately been granted nearly unlimited power in matters of national security without any consideration for the downstream effects of their policies.
 
Brad Z said:
Back before the SFRA, there was the Washington DC ADIZ. Lots of people who were operating to airports near but outside the ADIZ, or passing through the area were busting the airspace. After enough claims of “I didn’t know!” (Which really didn’t help the pilot’s cause) the overlords of the airspace created an even larger ring to limit speeds and require training so that airspace violators operating nearby couldn’t claim they didn’t know. The ring for required training was orig)ally proposed as 100nm but got enacted as 60nm.
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The problem was that they didn't put any special emphasis on it for those outside the 60 miles. As a result, several notable accidental busts (plus a few for P-40) occurred by oblivious pilots passing through the area from a distance. Most of us who were based in the area were painfully aware of it. (My plane was suck at VKX for five weeks after 9/11).
 
flyingron said:
The problem was that they didn't put any special emphasis on it for those outside the 60 miles. As a result, several notable accidental busts (plus a few for P-40) occurred by oblivious pilots passing through the area from a distance. Most of us who were based in the area were painfully aware of it. (My plane was suck at VKX for five weeks after 9/11).
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This is about the time when people started paying attention to airspace notams. Of course even the notams for post 9/11 TFRs were notoriously unreliable.
 
Brad Z said:
…
Thing with USSS, they're not a democracy. Letters and phone calls from Congress don't sway them.…
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QFT. I spent most of a three year overseas tour as DOD support to the USSS airspace security team.

Brad Z said:
…The entirety of DHS has unfortunately been granted nearly unlimited power in matters of national security without any consideration for the downstream effects of their policies.
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This is rather unfortunate as a fart in the right church could legally be designated a National Security Special Event and woe be anyone who tries to question that decision. During my lifetime, the pendulum has swung pretty far in one direction…well hoping it’s a pendulum anyways.
 
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