All women Deltra crew flies 120 girls to NASA HQ

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MuseChaser said:
Except that there is ABSOLUTELY nothing stopping anyone of any race, gender, or creed from pursuing anything that they are interested in in today's society... BY LAW. The idea that every occupation, pursuit, and interest should be populated with an exact representation of the general populace in terms of makeup is ludicrous. Is it equally deplorable that males are underrepresented in elementary general music classrooms? WHO CARES. Let people do what they want to do... all people. Kath, I'm glad you're flying, and I'm glad you like to fly. It's awesome. It's not in any way more awesome because you happen to be female.
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That's a cop out. There are also laws against a whole host of crimes, but somehow, they keep happening.

But the tide is changing and yes, there are cases of reverse discrimination. I feel sorry for young people today for lots of reasons, and this just doesn't rise to the surface.

If the story was about a plane load of women and girls being given jobs that men and boys were being denied, I would have a problem. But this was an event designed to expose girls to something that even though they may have known about it, were never encouraged to actually consider it for themselves. In fact, quite the opposite. For ever in history, up until relatively recently, women were taught and told that they couldn't have these jobs. I would say that in another generation or so that something like this might not be warranted.
 
Unlike some professions, in aviation, regulation requires jobs go to the prepared. I believe airlines would rather hire a woman than a man right now, if only to correct the conspicuous imbalance, but the fact is anyone qualified to fly an airliner right now is going to get hired, male or female.

The issue is not biased recruiting. The real issue is a lack of confidence among women which discourages them from preparing for jobs in male-dominated industries. A whole bunch of social factors will need to change to fix that, and what Delta did is a good start.
 
PW_Plack said:
The issue is not biased recruiting. The real issue is a lack of confidence among women which discourages them from preparing for jobs in male-dominated industries. A whole bunch of social factors will need to change to fix that, and what Delta did is a good start.
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Ever thought that the real issue is that women don’t want to do certain jobs? I believe that is more of a factor than anything, but the PC crew won’t discuss that. Mechanics, cops, pilots, ditch diggers, electrical lineman, general construction....

At what point to we stop trying to manufacture a crisis because it makes the PC crowd happy?
 
The crisis is here, it’s called a shortage of pilots and mechanics. Since these aren’t traditionally fields that women go into it is logical for companies to do outreach and make girls aware that they can do these jobs as well as a man. Why wouldn’t a company try to double their potential hiring pool?
 
flyer770 said:
The crisis is here, it’s called a shortage of pilots and mechanics. Since these aren’t traditionally fields that women go into it is logical for companies to do outreach and make girls aware that they can do these jobs as well as a man. Why wouldn’t a company try to double their potential hiring pool?
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Exactly. And besides, women will work for less than men.

That was supposed to be sarcastic, but there is truth to it. Women will work for less given fair treatment and a flexible work schedule or fewer hours. It is true that women are still responsible for most of the housemaking and child raising duties. Not to mention, actually having the kids. Most men, especially young men, will work 60 hours a week for more money. At least they would "back in the day". Women just won't/can't do that.
 
JOhnH said:
Exactly. And besides, women will work for less than men.

That was supposed to be sarcastic, but there is truth to it. Women will work for less given fair treatment and a flexible work schedule or fewer hours. It is true that women are still responsible for most of the housemaking and child raising duties. Not to mention, actually having the kids. Most men, especially young men, will work 60 hours a week for more money. At least they would "back in the day". Women just won't/can't do that.
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I usually work 50-60 depending on the week. A 40 hour week is rare, and I feel like I forgot to get something done when it does happen. In fact, I am about to put in about 4 hours today or so. Hopefully less as I really am not motivated this AM. Perhaps I'll fly this afternoon.......
 
tspear said:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/women-crew-delta-flight-takes-120-girls-nasa/story?id=66182206

Cool feel good story.

Tim

Edit: Remove tracker
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zaitcev said:
At least cut off the tracking token when pasting the link, sheesh.

Also yay for sexism. We want you to become an aviator not because you're any good at aviating, or because you might like it, but because you have the officially approved set of body parts.
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The feel good story lasted exactly one post - exactly what I figured.:rolleyes:
 
Half Fast said:
Kath, do you really not see how something like this is denigrating to males? And when you come right down to it, isn't it denigrating to females also, turning them into "poor little dears" who require special treatment?

If we need more young people to enter aviation, then let's recruit them without discriminating based on gender or any of the other identity factors. It makes no difference to the airplane whether the person flying it is male or female.
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I cannot even begin to fathom how insecure you must be to read a headline this and instantly feel that it is "denigrating to men". I'm a man. This story is fantastic! How awesome is to show these young girls that they can pilot a freakin' huge jet! I think it's wonderful.

I heard its 4%, but Kath says 7%. That's the percentage of female professional pilots. The 93% of us with penises should really be worried!

Good on them. Great thing to do, great story. Absolutely fantastic!
 
Unit74 said:
Ever thought that the real issue is that women don’t want to do certain jobs? I believe that is more of a factor than anything, but the PC crew won’t discuss that. Mechanics, cops, pilots, ditch diggers, electrical lineman, general construction....

At what point to we stop trying to manufacture a crisis because it makes the PC crowd happy?
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I don’t think that’s it in this case. Maybe with some professions, but then do most males want to be ditch diggers or septic tank repairmen? Those aren’t jobs that most kids don’t dream of when they are asked “what do you want to do when you grow up?”

My mother always told a story when she graduated high school and decided to go to college, my grandfather asked her what she was going to be, a teacher or a nurse? That was the two professions that she had available to her. She became a teacher, and a great one at that. There’s no doubt that she could have been an attorney, a doctor, or whatever she wanted. Although those other professions could have been a possibility, it was 1960 and as the daughter of immigrants, it wasn’t the cultural norm.

I’m sure that if a little girl even has the slightest inclination towards becoming a pilot, but from her earliest memory pilots are always portrayed as men (white men, at that) then sub-consciously it becomes something that women just don’t do. If young girls saw more women as pilots both in the media and in real life, it then becomes something that is open to them. And that’s a great thing and something that should be encouraged not discouraged.
 
Unit74 said:
Ever thought that the real issue is that women don’t want to do certain jobs? I believe that is more of a factor than anything, but the PC crew won’t discuss that. Mechanics, cops, pilots, ditch diggers, electrical lineman, general construction....

At what point to we stop trying to manufacture a crisis because it makes the PC crowd happy?
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There's certainly an element of truth in what you say. But, at the same time, if 90%+ of the pro pilot ranks are male and we have a shortage of qualified pilots, don't you think trying to involve more women in aviation is a business, rather than a PC decision on Delta's part?

You don't have to be wrong for me to be right, and vice versa.
 
There are reasons other than insecurity and mysogyny that allow people to view things differently. I don't have time to elaborate right now... gotta get to work... but when folks who view an issue one way immediately resort to calling those who view it differently "insecure" or "mysogynists" without attempting to understand the rational basis for those views, well... any rational discussion is over before it began. At some point in the next few days, assuming this thread hasn't been closed by then, I'll attempt to clarify the view that targeting a specific gender does a disservice to both genders... or races...or creeds... or whatever pair of demographics we're supposedly attempting treat equally. "Treat equally" is the goal, no?
 
If we are at 7% with all the free stuff, and encouragement and fancy news articles and scholarships (a '99 tried to offer my GF a scholarship to fly at a party once - she is way to smart to be a pilot), then maybe it comes down to some other reason. At least as a group we have super smart white knights to point out why nobody can be anything but supportive about gender politics because it sounds like without ryan explaining it for kath, we just wouldn't get it.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I’m sure that if a little girl even has the slightest inclination towards becoming a pilot, but from her earliest memory pilots are always portrayed as men (white men, at that) then sub-consciously it becomes something that women just don’t do. If young girls saw more women as pilots both in the media and in real life, it then becomes something that is open to them. And that’s a great thing and something that should be encouraged not discouraged.
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so how long has Patty been flying?......meh, there are plenty of feminine roll models in aviation. Nothing to see here folks....after all females dominate the bus driving profession, can be no different here.:rolleyes:
 
MuseChaser said:
There are reasons other than insecurity and mysogyny that allow people to view things differently. I don't have time to elaborate right now... gotta get to work... but when folks who view an issue one way immediately resort to calling those who view it differently "insecure" or "mysogynists"
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Guilty as charged (at least for some; I never said "mysoginist". But I apologize for going to "insecure" and "threatened" too quickly. I will await to hear your side of the story.

"Treat equally" is the goal, no?
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Absolutely. But I remember my step father taking the boys hunting and fishing when my sisters were begging to go. "No, he said. that is for boys". When he was outside working on a car, he would open the door and say "John, can you give me a hand with this?". He NEVER said "Dianne, can you give me a hand with this". One day Dianne tried to change a tire, even though she had never watched it being done or been shown how. She figured out how to set up the bumper jack, and maybe should should have figured out herself to chock the tires, but she learned at the expense of a garage door. Boy did she get in trouble and never tried to do that again.

All I am saying is that there are a lot of things girls and women can do if given the opportunity, which historically they have not. And that is not being treated equally.
 
Let's play a round of 'defensive bingo':

white knight
PC
Rational thought
It's their choice
 
Unit74 said:
Ever thought that the real issue is that women don’t want to do certain jobs?
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Yes, I have given this question considerable thought. And no, I don't think this is the "real issue".

Yes, people are all different. Yes, men and women are different in some ways, and no, in an ideal world filled with equal choice I would not expect the gender line to be drawn exactly 50/50 across all professions. [I never stated that this was my goal, yet many of you seem to be assuming it is.] But we all, from a very early age, try to figure out from the cues and clues all around us, how we fit into the world and what is our role in it. You don't have to specifically tell a kid "there are boy jobs and there are girl jobs" for them to accidentally get this message over and over simply by looking around in the world. This is what the Delta effort is trying to combat. Similarly efforts for women in STEM.

There's another thing that the Delta effort is trying to combat, and that is the loneliness of being "one of just a few". Say you're in a field with 5%, or even 10%, women (the 7% number is for all licensed pilots, and 4% is for the commercial sector). Going out to dinner, say, at a fly-in (or a physics meeting, or whatever), the typical big table at a bar will seat about eight or ten. So I have spent a lot of time being the only one at such tables. If there is *one* other woman at the table, making the fraction more like 25%, a very magical thing happens. The number of douchebag comments and tasteless jokes at my expense drops precipitously. People are less likely to assume I'm there because I'm someone else's girlfriend or wife. But something important also happens on the inside, something y'all cannot see... I relax. A woman moving through a man's world alone is always on her guard. You have no idea how much difference having the company makes.

So give us this, people. If you're one of the 93%, role models are all around and you get to experience that feeling of relaxed tribal camaraderie every day and you likely don't give it a second thought. Let Delta give some girls a day of that same feeling. It's not a threat. Sheesh.
 
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Sluggo said:

My mother always told a story when she graduated high school and decided to go to college, my grandfather asked her what she was going to be, a teacher or a nurse? That was the two professions that she had available to her. She became a teacher, and a great one at that. There’s no doubt that she could have been an attorney, a doctor, or whatever she wanted. Although those other professions could have been a possibility, it was 1960 and as the daughter of immigrants, it wasn’t the cultural norm.

A very good old friend of mine was an attorney. She was born before 1900! Yes, attorney was a possible field of endeavor for females (She would have been furious to be called female, she was a Woman!). She had a successful practice in Washington, DC. She died about 30 years ago, at her comfortable house in Georgetown, a year or so after my last visit with her there.

She said that if you were going to be an attorney, you had to decide at the start that no one was going to tell you what the verdict was going to be. She ignored nay sayers, and drove ahead, masculine opinions to be hanged. She would have been a great Mom, but that was not what she desired to do. She loved my kids, and they thought she was a lovely lady.

where I worked, we had a hiring freeze for an extended time, and only the "rough jobs" were hiring, Lineman, Mechanic, Coal yard. The positions no one wanted, and old employees were retiring. A more than half a dozen young women found that to be a quick way in, and as soon as they ended their probationary period, filed for transfers to other "cleaner" jobs. All but one were successful. The last one made the jump out after more than 5 years of trying, her work attitudes and attendance patterns were her downfall. No one wanted her in their department.

During that period, I had 4 female assistants, the only one who quit due to workplace inequality issues was one of the best assistants I had. I tried to talk her into staying, but she went back to Texas where she had grown up, she had been living up here with her grandfather, and when he died, she quit and left.

There are no easy, totally correct answers to the gender issues, and women will continue to dominate cleaning workplace, and men ditch digging. As far as female pilots, I know 5, and have flown with two, not an issue with me. The next time that I am up with an instructor, I think she will treat me as an equal, and the flight will be enjoyed and educational.
 
I really don’t give a crap about what percentage of pilots are women, men, black, white, gay, straight or any other group.

The only time I have an issue with any of this is when standards are reduced to put a person in a seat because of some BS under represented group ideas. While some on here will dismiss my observation as anecdotal I can guarantee you that does happen. Not often but it does happen and I have a zero tolerance policy for abiding that behavior.
 
JOhnH said:
Guilty as charged (at least for some; I never said "mysoginist". But I apologize for going to "insecure" and "threatened" too quickly. I will await to hear your side of the story.


Absolutely. But I remember my step father taking the boys hunting and fishing when my sisters were begging to go. "No, he said. that is for boys". When he was outside working on a car, he would open the door and say "John, can you give me a hand with this?". He NEVER said "Dianne, can you give me a hand with this". One day Dianne tried to change a tire, even though she had never watched it being done or been shown how. She figured out how to set up the bumper jack, and maybe should should have figured out herself to chock the tires, but she learned at the expense of a garage door. Boy did she get in trouble and never tried to do that again.

All I am saying is that there are a lot of things girls and women can do if given the opportunity, which historically they have not. And that is not being treated equally.
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My mothet taught me to change a tire and run a company. Dad taught me to make pancakes and rewire sockets and switches and negotiate a car deal.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I really don’t give a crap about what percentage of pilots are women, men, black, white, gay, straight or any other group.

The only time I have an issue with any of this is when standards are reduced to put a person in a seat because of some BS under represented group ideas. While some on here will dismiss my observation as anecdotal I can guarantee you that does happen. Not often but it does happen and I have a zero tolerance policy for abiding that behavior.
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I agree with you completely. I have seen that happen multiple times. And it is just wrong.

But that is not what we are talking about here. Introducing women to the concept of an aviation career (if it has any effect) will increase competition for the job spots. Admittedly, right now with the pilot shortage, competition doesn't seem to be a problem, but with more people applying, it will happen. And may the most qualified person get the job.
 
JOhnH said:
I agree with you completely. I have seen that happen multiple times. And it is just wrong.

But that is not what we are talking about here. Introducing women to the concept of an aviation career (if it has any effect) will increase competition for the job spots. Admittedly, right now with the pilot shortage, competition doesn't seem to be a problem, but with more people applying, it will happen. And may the most qualified person get the job.
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Well. There really isn’t a shortage. Pretty sure that on the first day of powered heavier than air flight there were two pilots and one seat. Nothing has changed much.

There is a short term pinch for qualified ATP level pilots right this minute but the training pipeline is full of the next generation of furloughed pilots.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Well. There really isn’t a shortage. Pretty sure that on the first day of powered heavier than air flight there were two pilots and one seat. Nothing has changed much.

There is a short term pinch for qualified ATP level pilots right this minute but the training pipeline is full of the next generation of furloughed pilots.
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QFT brother. Hope you don't mind, I'm going to use your last line quote as my new signature line. You win the internet today.
 
MuseChaser said:
There are reasons other than insecurity and mysogyny that allow people to view things differently. I don't have time to elaborate right now... gotta get to work... but when folks who view an issue one way immediately resort to calling those who view it differently "insecure" or "mysogynists" without attempting to understand the rational basis for those views, well... any rational discussion is over before it began. At some point in the next few days, assuming this thread hasn't been closed by then, I'll attempt to clarify the view that targeting a specific gender does a disservice to both genders... or races...or creeds... or whatever pair of demographics we're supposedly attempting treat equally. "Treat equally" is the goal, no?
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You make the assumption that there is rational thought behind most positions.
That is a rather interesting assumption. :D

Tim
 
IBTL - there are always some barriers, to everyone; all of which can be overcome with some effing dedication and perseverance. In this arena, the entry bar is roughly the same: A woman will have some jerks to deal with. But can overcome those, get a left seat, make some $$$, be successful. Plenty have, plenty will.

Woman don't make less money than men - one of those "truths" that isn't. In the same fields, with the same prep and experience, there isn't any real difference - for single woman with no kids: The glass ceiling is more cultural than corporate, as woman take on more household and kid duties than husbands do.

Most places, they just want your skills - plumbing isn't relevant, except for a few dinosaurs - no one cares if you walk through the door with one eye in the center of your forehead and your knuckles dragging on the ground behind you; not if you can bring the wicked skills. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a few azzhats, a dwindling number, are still out there - but way fewer than the "victims" claim. We are giving more and more attention to demographics that matter less and less.

So, STFU, get the preparation required, and go get hired.
 
Sundancer said:
IBTL - there are always some barriers, to everyone; all of which can be overcome with some effing dedication and perseverance. In this arena, the entry bar is roughly the same: A woman will have some jerks to deal with. But can overcome those, get a left seat, make some $$$, be successful. Plenty have, plenty will.

Woman don't make less money than men - one of those "truths" that isn't. In the same fields, with the same prep and experience, there isn't any real difference - for single woman with no kids: The glass ceiling is more cultural than corporate, as woman take on more household and kid duties than husbands do.

Most places, they just want your skills - plumbing isn't relevant, except for a few dinosaurs - no one cares if you walk through the door with one eye in the center of your forehead and your knuckles dragging on the ground behind you; not if you can bring the wicked skills. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a few azzhats, a dwindling number, are still out there - but way fewer than the "victims" claim. We are giving more and more attention to demographics that matter less and less.

So, STFU, get the preparation required, and go get hired.
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Locked thread ... self fulfilling prophecy.
 
murphey said:
My mothet taught me to change a tire and run a company. Dad taught me to make pancakes and rewire sockets and switches and negotiate a car deal.
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Dad taught me how to shoot, throw a football, and change a tire, probably because I was an only child and he had to make do with a girl, not a boy. I wasn't much interested in what mom was doing, so I never learned how to cook very well. Dad also taught me that I should do what I want, and not worry about what other people thought. That idea backfired on him when I became a teen, but to his credit, I have always been pretty independent. I didn't have that much trouble negotiating my place in a world full of men. Sure, you get the occasional odd comment, but I found that my co-workers, were, as a whole supportive. I don't believe in quotas, and I am not concerned about percentages, as long as people have the same opportunities, which they seem to do now. I'm not sure that there are many women in 2019 who are unaware that they can become pilots. If they don't want to do so, maybe it's because they are smart. ;)
 
MuseChaser said:
There are reasons other than insecurity and mysogyny that allow people to view things differently. I don't have time to elaborate right now... gotta get to work... but when folks who view an issue one way immediately resort to calling those who view it differently "insecure" or "mysogynists" without attempting to understand the rational basis for those views, well... any rational discussion is over before it began.
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Rational discussion ended on post 2 of this thread. Sorry.
 
Everskyward said:
Dad taught me how to shoot, throw a football, and change a tire, probably because I was an only child and he had to make do with a girl, not a boy. I wasn't much interested in what mom was doing, so I never learned how to cook very well. Dad also taught me that I should do what I want, and not worry about what other people thought. That idea backfired on him when I became a teen, but to his credit, I have always been pretty independent. I didn't have that much trouble negotiating my place in a world full of men. Sure, you get the occasional odd comment, but I found that my co-workers, were, as a whole supportive. I don't believe in quotas, and I am not concerned about percentages, as long as people have the same opportunities, which they seem to do now. I'm not sure that there are many women in 2019 who are unaware that they can become pilots. If they don't want to do so, maybe it's because they are smart. ;)
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Wonderful. I read this three or four times, because I thought at first my wife must have written it as it very closely describes her experiences and views ... exactly on point.
 
A private organization putting together an event to expose girls to careers in STEM or aviation, and an airline supporting it by putting together an all female crew, does not deprive any male of any opportunities he would have had otherwise.
 
weilke said:
A private organization putting together an event to expose girls to careers in STEM or aviation, and an airline supporting it by putting together an all female crew, does not deprive any male of any opportunities he would have had otherwise.
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the problem with that is the "optics" weren't all that great.....;) :D
 
Everskyward said:
Dad taught me how to shoot, throw a football, and change a tire, probably because I was an only child and he had to make do with a girl, not a boy. I wasn't much interested in what mom was doing, so I never learned how to cook very well. Dad also taught me that I should do what I want, and not worry about what other people thought. That idea backfired on him when I became a teen, but to his credit, I have always been pretty independent. I didn't have that much trouble negotiating my place in a world full of men. Sure, you get the occasional odd comment, but I found that my co-workers, were, as a whole supportive. I don't believe in quotas, and I am not concerned about percentages, as long as people have the same opportunities, which they seem to do now. I'm not sure that there are many women in 2019 who are unaware that they can become pilots. If they don't want to do so, maybe it's because they are smart. ;)
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FWIW at one of the 99's events I was at with you, where the girlscouts came and looked at all of the planes out at APA, most of the girls and many of the parents were claiming about how they wanted to be flight attendants, not pilots... It seemed like they just thought that was their "place" in society. While there's nothing wrong with being a flight attendant, it sure seems like the girl's aspirations were lower than those of boys and I think that's due to societal issues and stigmas more-so than a matter of interest.
 
Everskyward said:
Dad taught me how to shoot, throw a football, and change a tire, probably because I was an only child and he had to make do with a girl, not a boy. I wasn't much interested in what mom was doing, so I never learned how to cook very well. Dad also taught me that I should do what I want, and not worry about what other people thought. That idea backfired on him when I became a teen, but to his credit, I have always been pretty independent. I didn't have that much trouble negotiating my place in a world full of men. Sure, you get the occasional odd comment, but I found that my co-workers, were, as a whole supportive. I don't believe in quotas, and I am not concerned about percentages, as long as people have the same opportunities, which they seem to do now. I'm not sure that there are many women in 2019 who are unaware that they can become pilots. If they don't want to do so, maybe it's because they are smart. ;)
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You sound much like my wife. Hon, is that you? Did you join this forum? ;)
 
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