Alec Baldwin shoots and kills cinematographer.

Everskyward said:
Somewhat like non-pilots, and some pilots, not having respect for the prop...
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Good example.

Props (like guns) serve a useful purpose but the person in control (PIC) needs to assure the area is clear and be hyper diligent when it comes to safety. If something somehow goes tragically wrong, the operator is responsible. You can't blame dispatch or an armorer.
 
jbarrass said:
Good example.

Props (like guns) serve a useful purpose but the person in control (PIC) needs to assure the area is clear and be hyper diligent when it comes to safety. If something somehow goes tragically wrong, the operator is responsible. You can't blame dispatch or an armorer.
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You can't blame a person whose job it was to make sure the weapons were safe? :confused2:

I have no expertise in this subject, but from reading this thread and various news articles, it seems like there were a lot of possible links in the accident chain:

Possible inadequate safety culture in the production company.
Relatively inexperienced armorer.
Inadequate training of personnel who were going to be handling weapons.
Alleged use of the weapons for target practice between shoots, presumably using real bullets.
Failure of the armorer to check the ammunition at the end of the lunch break.
Failure of the person who announced "cold gun" to check the ammunition when handing the weapon to the actor.
Failure of the actor to check the ammunition.
Allowing people to stand where the gun was going to be pointed.

I have probably missed some.
 
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172andyou said:
Can't wait for Dan Gryder to chime on in this one.
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He will say it was suicide all along.

It's interesting that you will have actors who spend weeks or months starving themselves for a particular role, or spend months working out to bulk up for a role, but AB apparently had so little interest in his craft that he wouldn't take a weekend course in gun safety for a western.
 
My point is that a competent armorer would not have allowed a firearm capable of firing live ammunition on the set. Period.

There should have been no live ammunition on the set. Period.

When the armorer put those three firearms on the cart, she was required by standard procedure to verify their safety.

The individual handing the firearm to the actor had, on a normal set, the obligation to check that it was "cold", not just say the word.

Under the normal rules, as I have seen them practiced, Baldwin himself was required to visually verify the firearm was indeed, '"cold".

At the set that I visited, after lunch, the inspect and verify was repeated on all firearms, and due to the nature of the following scenes, no ammunition was distributed. No actor had any kind of explosive available.

The set where I visited was not in California, so not required to comply with California rules, but they were very safety oriented, and did follow those logical rules to prevent any of their cast from being in danger.
 
This scene was not being filmed in California. Not sure how that affects what rules applied.
 
It sounds like it wasn’t supposed to be a “shoot” scene, just practice drawing the weapon from a seated position. It’s possible that the actor never intended to discharge any type of round, but did so during a draw. End results, sadly, do not change. It was avoidable in my ignorant opinion.
 
In the non California set where I was, the second set was a non shooting scene, and both the armorer and the actors with guns verified to all present that their guns were not loaded.

Shooting or not shooting, every time a new scene started, there were multiple verifications.

This is not a specific individual responsibility, it is every person that picks up a gun, armorer, support person, of actor.

Every time.

Then no one dies.

The Army is somewhat similar in barracks time, the armorer hands you your rifle with the breech open, and requires you to look into the chamber before he releases it to you. Returning, you hand it to him, breech open, and he verifies not loaded before he accepted it.

Thus, every time a firearm changed hands, it was verified unloaded.

Such safeguards need take little time.
 
‘Rust’ Chief Electrician Says Halyna Hutchins Death Was Result Of “Negligence And Unprofessionalism” (msn.com)

Everyone seems to be making excuses for Baldwin, but he should not have pointed that weapon at anyone, unless it was carefully and deliberately scripted, rehearsed, and had multiple safety steps performed before hand to make sure the gun was safe. I can't think of any circumstance where a crew member would have a gun pointed at them without these steps in place. This is criminal negligence no matter how you slice or who pulled the trigger and it cost a life.
 
PaulS said:
‘Rust’ Chief Electrician Says Halyna Hutchins Death Was Result Of “Negligence And Unprofessionalism” (msn.com)

Everyone seems to be making excuses for Baldwin, but he should not have pointed that weapon at anyone, unless it was carefully and deliberately scripted, rehearsed, and had multiple safety steps performed before hand to make sure the gun was safe. I can't think of any circumstance where a crew member would have a gun pointed at them without these steps in place. This is criminal negligence no matter how you slice or who pulled the trigger and it cost a life.
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No real gun should ever be pointed at anyone who is not a direct threat to you, scripted or not. There are several people in the chain that have done less than due diligence; who is the goat?
 
geezer said:
The Army is somewhat similar in barracks time, the armorer hands you your rifle with the breech open, and requires you to look into the chamber before he releases it to you. Returning, you hand it to him, breech open, and he verifies not loaded before he accepted it.

Thus, every time a firearm changed hands, it was verified unloaded.

Such safeguards need take little time.
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I used to teach gun safety to Boy Scouts with a similar process. We'd start out with a tableful of unloaded guns with different types of actions..bolt, pump, lever, semi, etc. I'd pick one up and demonstrate the three point check: 1) open the action, dropping the mag first, if applicable, 2) visually check the chamber and any magazine integral to the gun, 3) touch the open chamber since on some actions it's hard to get enough light in there to visually verify the chamber is empty.

I'd declare the gun empty, then pass it down the line. Each person in line, Scout or adult leader, would repeat the three steps. By the end of the line, it was getting rather repetitive, but the point was to give everyone hands-on experience in making the gun safe, and also to stress that it doesn't matter if you just watched another person, even the instructor, check the gun. You always check for yourself. As does the next person, and the next. Never accept a verbal declaration from anyone that a gun is unloaded.

And even after all that, always treat the gun as if it is loaded.
 
Brad W said:
calling @socalflyingmonkey to check-in.... the only cinematographer I "know" Hope you were no where close this....
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Palmpilot said:
I suspect you're referring to @FlyingMonkey since he is a cinematographer, and the above reference doesn't appear to work.
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I wasn't working on that production. I have worked on sets with firearms many times. There are standardized procedures that should have been in place that guarantee this won't happen. It involves everyone who touches the weapon to open and inspect visually and verbally confirm. The last step of this is for the actor to be shown the chamber before they receive the weapon. Clearly, this propmaster, armourer and assistant director were not using these procedures. This never should have happened. I will be interested to see what type of round was loaded - even a blank with wax plug can be very dangerous at close range. Live rounds with projectile tips are not used on set and if that is what was fired, investigators are surely trying to figure out how that type of round made it into a weapon on set.
 
GaryM said:
And even after all that, always treat the gun as if it is loaded.
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As pilots I would think this would be easy to understand. We are taught that a prop is always hot until absolutely verified to not be. Even after verifying that the mags are cold and the fuel is off I still keep body parts out of the way if I need to turn the prop.

If you take a class in gun safety don't use this guy:

 
eman1200 said:
sorry, that's silly. as pilot you're responsible for fuel, no one else. on a film set, there are SPECILISTS who's sole job is to handle the firearm stuff so the other specialist, known as an actor, doesn't have to.
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Yeah, the actor NEVER gets pointers regarding gun safety on set:confused:

Wheels said:
It should be a requirement if he is going to handle them as part of his job.
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It will come out that most sets do provide safety training/info

OneCharlieTango said:
... here’s an idea: how about mandatory firearm safety classes in schools?
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What? And reduce the CRT curricula?;)

Decades ago, our high school had a built in firing range under the cement stadium that was used by ROTC for competition 22 events and practice ... that wouldn't have a chance of occurring now ...
 
danhagan said:
Decades ago, our high school had a built in firing range under the cement stadium that was used by ROTC for competition 22 events and practice ... that wouldn't have a chance of occurring now ...
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I don't know if it's still in use, but we had a rifle range at our high school. I was on the rifle team, and we regularly walked from the Military Science room to the loading dock with rifles and shooting jackets on our way to other schools for rifle meets. I'll ask around and see what the current state of the program is.
 
My kids high school rifle team currently practices off-site. It's run as a club team vice a HS league team, though they do recognize it for "lettering".
 
geezer said:
Thus, every time a firearm changed hands, it was verified unloaded.
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That was the rule in my house ever since I was a little kid. When a gun is handed off, both parties check it first--I can't even imagine not doing this. If a gun is just sitting someplace, the action is open, and it was verified unloaded before setting it down. I suppose this is the difference between a firearms enthusiast and a dedicated gun-hater like Baldwin.

Tim
 
Wheels said:
It should be a requirement if he is going to handle them as part of his job.
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Okay but shouldn't training (or possibly licensing) then be a requirement for anyone who wants to purchase or own a firearm? Or would that be considered "gun control"?
 
That wouldn't have helped here. But a requirement for a firearms safety course before you can graduate high school might have.
 
Silvaire said:
Okay but shouldn't training (or possibly licensing) then be a requirement for anyone who wants to purchase or own a firearm? Or would that be considered "gun control"?
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What other rights require a license?

It’s fine the way it works for normal people, do something stupid with a gun, get someone killed, go to jail.

It is the parents job to teach their kids about exercising all their rights.
 
BladeSlap said:
What other rights require a license?

It’s fine the way it works for normal people, do something stupid with a gun, get someone killed, go to jail.

It is the parents job to teach their kids about exercising all their rights.
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Peaceably assembling in some places, planning to march in a street, some religious practices and redress your government in the Supreme Court requires a license.
 
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BladeSlap said:
What other rights require a license?...
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Well if it's a "right" how come you can't carry your pistol onto an airliner or when you go visit your uncle Billy at the state pen?
Those would appear to be infringements.
 
Rights go together with responsibilities like bread and peanut butter.
 
Silvaire said:
Okay but shouldn't training (or possibly licensing) then be a requirement for anyone who wants to purchase or own a firearm? Or would that be considered "gun control"?
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mandatory safety course for CCW here in NC. had to take a safety course back in NJ when I got my hunting license. no problems with that at all, and I encourage more training than that as well.
 
wsuffa said:
I thought the crew - or at least some of the crew - was IATSI
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The only people not involved in this circus were the non-union replacement workers. Everyone involved was represented.
 
I just saw on CBS News that the Assistant Director who called “cold gun” before the incident had been fired for an accidental discharge on a different set in 2019. And multiple accidental black discharges had occurred that day. Many red flags.

Heard someone was using the revolver for target practice using real ammo that day as well. It looks like a complete train wreck.
 
texasclouds said:
I just saw on CBS News that the Assistant Director who called “cold gun” before the incident had been fired for an accidental discharge on a different set in 2019. And multiple accidental black discharges had occurred that day. Many red flags.

Heard someone was using the revolver for target practice using real ammo that day as well. It looks like a complete train wreck.
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Yeah, the overused phrase Accident waiting to happen is more than appropriate here. I hope some people permanently lose those rights that people are ranting about above.
 
eman1200 said:
How about if you have a specialist A&P do your annual, then an IA signs off on it, then you do your due diligence of a preflight and on takeoff a cylinder plows thru your cowling and you nosedive into the ground killing a line guy, are you the douchebag people are making Baldwin out to be because you’re a liberal fktard?
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I think a better analogy is you pay the FBO to fill your tanks, and you take off without checking whether they are full.
 
Latest from Yahoo News:

Detectives recover 3 revolvers and ammunition - in
boxes, loose and in a fanny pack - from movie set
where Alec Baldwin fatally shot a cinematographer.
 
How long does it take to verify a gun is not loaded with live rounds ?

In reference to my earlier post, there were 28 shootings in Chicago over the weekend...anyone seen news coverage of the victims ? IBTL
 
Warlock said:
The irony of an anti gun guy killing someone with a gun is beyond belief on so many levels and the report of a live round in a .44 discharged is incredible…
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You do know what actors are right? I mean, you do understand that when a guy puts on a batman outfit for a movie, he doesn't actually believe he's batman right? Right?

Or do you assume that anyone who chooses to play the part of a murderer in a movie must therefore be a-ok will actually killing people?
 
This was a rehearsal of a scene! What possible justification is there for using a real gun for a rehearsal?!

Most gun handling classes I know about use rubber training guns wherever possible. Like this: https://www.amazon.com/BladesUSA-Rubber-Training-Gun/dp/B01M5BQOUZ . Why not use something similar for a rehearsal?

I can’t fathom why he needed to be handling an actual firearm in this situation. Sheer idiocy.
 
kath said:
This.
Please keep this thread out of the Spin Zone, folks.
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I bet you a million dollars it never makes it to the Spin Zone. :)

Juliet Hotel said:
You do know what actors are right? I mean, you do understand that when a guy puts on a batman outfit for a movie, he doesn't actually believe he's batman right? Right?

Or do you assume that anyone who chooses to play the part of a murderer in a movie must therefore be a-ok will actually killing people?
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Tell that to Heath Ledger.
 
FastEddieB said:
Latest from Yahoo News:

Detectives recover 3 revolvers and ammunition - in
boxes, loose and in a fanny pack - from movie set
where Alec Baldwin fatally shot a cinematographer.
Click to expand...

This in addition to other reports that the crew were using these "props" (really firearms) for target practice/shooting ("recreational purposes") after is pretty alarming. I would imagine the armorer should have kept any firearm in control and in her custody or supervision at all times. How it came to be out of her custody and sight, and laid on a cart loaded with live ammunition where the Assistant Director handed it to the actor is unfathomable. It appears that nobody checked/cleared the firearm, including Baldwin, and that error chain is what led to this incident.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Disagree. The production underwriter claims department is probably writing the check for the policy limit as we speak, as would Baldwin's umbrella liability underwriter. They may subrogate if there's a target, but they'll pay. As for Baldwin, if it were me and I shot and killed a wife and mother of a young child, it would be take it all. I can't imagine anyone with a conscience feeling any different.
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A lot of information to unpack here. The first question is whether the decedent was an "employee" subject to worker's compensation or an independent contractor. I don't know how the film industry is set up in general, or this production in particular. Maybe someone on here does. If she was an employee entitled to workers compensation, then very likely her estate's exclusive recovery for claims of negligence would be under worker's compensation. Also if so, there very likely is co-worker immunity. Some states are more lenient about permitting claims for intentional or other conduct rising to a level above negligence to be made despite the exclusivity of the worker's compensation recovery.

I don't know what you mean by the term "production underwriter claims department." In all likelihood, the production had liability insurance, and that policy would no doubt cover Baldwin's actions, too. If you are referring to that insurance carrier, you may be correct that they will ultimately offer money to settle in the event there is not some worker's compensation exclusive remedy that bars tort claims. Doubtful that Baldwin's personal liability carrier and umbrella carrier will be making payments.

I don't see subrogation here. That generally happens when there is a property or health insurer that makes a payment. Liability carriers can't generally subrogate because they are paying for their own insured's negligence. Maybe there would an indemnity or contribution claim, but against whom? Not sure who they would have such claims against anyone who was not also their own insured. Similarly I suppose the health insurer of the decedent and the AD who was shot and injured might have a claim medical treatment.
 
Doug Reid said:
How long does it take to verify a gun is not loaded with live rounds ?

In reference to my earlier post, there were 28 shootings in Chicago over the weekend...anyone seen news coverage of the victims ? IBTL
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Apparently there was at least some news coverage indicating that there were 28 shootings. Doesn’t that count?
 
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