Alaska Turbine Otter float plane crash

The wife told me about it said 11 survivors. Don't know much else
 
My guess? Bad vis. Looks like he saw the mountain at the last moment and pulled up. Probably what saved them. Qtr mile vis delayed the helicopters from getting to them. Do the math.
 
steingar said:
What brings down a turbine?
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Same things as any other crash. Being a turbine makes little difference, reliability better than a recip perhaps, but I'm referring to other factors, weather, fuel, etc.
 
Weird that a sightseeing tour would fly in low vis...


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Stewartb said:
My guess? Bad vis. Looks like he saw the mountain at the last moment and pulled up. Probably what saved them. Qtr mile vis delayed the helicopters from getting to them. Do the math.
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Doesn't that explain about 90% of all Alaskan crashes?
 
Stewartb said:
No.
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I’m willing to challenge you on that. I guarantee that weather is the leading cause of most aircraft accidents in Alaska. That or terrain. Probably a combo of the two.
 
Ryanb said:
I’m willing to challenge you on that. I guarantee that weather is the leading cause of most aircraft accidents in Alaska. That or terrain. Probably a combo of the two.
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Ryan be like...

image.gif
 
I've lived here all my life. I fly here. I've buried friends here. But if you want to be the e-expert on Alaskan aviation? Go for it. All I know is that while weather is sometimes a factor? It isn't the only factor. Airplanes crash on clear sunny days, too.
 
Stewartb said:
I've lived here all my life. I fly here. I've buried friends here. But if you want to be the e-expert on Alaskan aviation? Go for it. All I know is that while weather is sometimes a factor? It isn't the only factor. Airplanes crash on clear sunny days, too.
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Not trying to be the e-expert, but I do read a lot of NTSB reports and the bulk of them do seem to state that weather was a factor to the accident. It’s no secret that Alaska has a lot of low, soupy days.

Obviously I’m not saying that all Alaskan accidents are caused by the two, but the fair majority seem to be. I could very well be misinformed, but that has been my own observation from reading accident reports. I’m open to discussion.
 
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I am very happy to see all survived this accident.

Of the 23 pilots I knew that were killed in Alaska, weather was a major factor in 16 of those accidents. The plane was usually found like the one pictured, just a short distance below the ridge or in the trees close to the shore line. 3 others were doing off airport work, 1 was dropping candy to kids, tight turn, stall, crash. 1 was killed trying to save a gear up landing and VMCed into the ground. He survived the accident but not the fire. 1 was killed taking pictures. 1 other there was no determination as to what happened. The plane was found in a smoking hole, near vertical impact, last week of employment going to an airline, young wife, new baby, no pre-impact anomalies found in what was left of the plane.

I was supposed to be on this flight. It bothered me for years. Still does as I was supposed to be on the flight. https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...ID=20001212X19658&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA
 
Thanks for helping support my hypothesis.

Findings
1. (F) WEATHER CONDITION - LOW CEILING
2. (C) FLIGHT INTO KNOWN ADVERSE WEATHER - CONTINUED

“Factors in the accident were low ceilings and snow.”
 
Peter Anderson said:
Weird that a sightseeing tour would fly in low vis...
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The weather might have been a local phenomena.

I have flown all day where the weather was 500ovc and 1 mile at the airport, yet a couple miles out and before exiting the Class E the weather was clear and a million.
 
Ryanb said:
Thanks for helping support my hypothesis.

Findings
1. (F) WEATHER CONDITION - LOW CEILING
2. (C) FLIGHT INTO KNOWN ADVERSE WEATHER - CONTINUED

“Factors in the accident were low ceilings and snow.”
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Doing some simple math? The numbers in Zeldman's anecdotal report fall far short of 90%. Your number.
 
Stewartb said:
Doing some simple math? The numbers in Zeldman's anecdotal report fall far short of 90%. Your number.
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So maybe I’m terribly wrong and you’re right?
 
Lately? Like in the past few weeks? We've had a few local accidents. A fatal mid-air. A loss of control during landing. An engine failure shortly after takeoff. Those have become the typical accident scenarios we see here. Weather services have improved and most of us find ways to use those services prior to flying. The statement that 90% of Alaskan aviation accidents are weather related is incorrect. What is the number exactly? It varies year to year but the trend is improving. Once Iridium turns on their broad band service the weather info will be much more available, and I'd expect that to make a positive change, too. For me to see weather cams from the boonies? I'll welcome that. Simply because none of us prefers the stress of not knowing what lies around the corner in a mountain pass.

https://www.adn.com/bush-pilot/article/2014-aviation-year-review/2014/12/31/
 
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This seems like an interesting, but unnecessary, peeing match. While no one can document the exact numbers and causes, there is probably agreement that weather is a major factor in most of the accidents; which is no surprise considering that mountains tend to produce their own local weather, as do coastal regions. The take-home doesn't revolve around an exact quantitative assessment. Rather, expertise is better focused on identifying common hazards in order to alert and remind pilots about safe practices. Just my nsho. Blessings
 
Bobanna said:
While no one can document the exact numbers and causes, there is probably agreement that weather is a major factor in most of the accidents
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That was my hypothesis as well, but there wasn’t mutual agreement.
 
Ryanb said:
That was my hypothesis as well, but there wasn’t mutual agreement.
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Right. Who cares if it's 16 out of 23 or more? Weather is a leading cause of accidents in the lower 48, and by the time we mix in highly variable weather and mountains, it becomes imperative that flight conditions and options be carefully considered on every flight. Maybe the message got lost while attempting to quantify the significance of the peril.
 
How many of you launch when the wind's blowing 40? Seriously, spare me the internet bravado. On Sunday I worked on my plane (outdoors) on the NW shore of Lake Hood on a day the winds were SE between 25-40. And the floatplanes kept coming and going. With those winds the private guys stayed home, but the commercial guys didn't hesitate. Anchorage is surrounded by mountains. Those commercial boys got beat up, but those tourists had schedules to keep. They wanted to go. Everyday life in Alaska. But what do I know, I only live here.
 
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Stewartb said:
How many of you launch when the wind's blowing 40? Seriously, spare me the internet bravado. On Sunday I worked on my plane (outdoors) on the NW shore of Lake Hood on a day the winds were SE between 25-40. And the floatplanes kept coming and going. With those winds the private guys stayed home, but the commercial guys didn't hesitate. Anchorage is surrounded by mountains. Those commercial boys got beat up, but those tourists had schedules to keep. They wanted to go. Everyday life in Alaska. But what do I know, I only live here.
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Wouldn't you say professional pilots (or somebody that flies daily or several times a day) have a sharpened skill-set for "challenging" conditions compared to a weekend warrior? I'd think docking and taxiing in those kind of winds would test the best of them.

I appreciate your Alaska perspective. Do you guys have any nice caves up there?
 
Bobanna said:
Wouldn't you say professional pilots (or somebody that flies daily or several times a day) have a sharpened skill-set for "challenging" conditions compared to a weekend warrior?
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Very much so. I have flown in very trying and challenging conditions in Alaska and New Mexico. I have thrown cross wind recommendations out the window. But I do this for a living, it is what I get paid to do and what I am expected to do. I also get paid for making the decision to not go. I do not expect or recommend a recreational flyer or anyone else to attempt what I have done. Or am about to do.

With that said there are a few private pilots in Alaska that I have a lot of respect for their flying ability and knowledge. I can say the same for a few here in NM.

Caves again.... where's that Xanax..???

Will old mine shafts make do..??
 
Stewartb said:
Lately? Like in the past few weeks? We've had a few local accidents. A fatal mid-air. A loss of control during landing. An engine failure shortly after takeoff. Those have become the typical accident scenarios we see here. Weather services have improved and most of us find ways to use those services prior to flying. The statement that 90% of Alaskan aviation accidents are weather related is incorrect. What is the number exactly? It varies year to year but the trend is improving. Once Iridium turns on their broad band service the weather info will be much more available, and I'd expect that to make a positive change, too. For me to see weather cams from the boonies? I'll welcome that. Simply because none of us prefers the stress of not knowing what lies around the corner in a mountain pass.

https://www.adn.com/bush-pilot/article/2014-aviation-year-review/2014/12/31/
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Does XM wx work up there?
 
Z: Thanks for the amplification: a pilot makes a promise when he departs that the flight will be successful -- it's crucial that the pilot have enough ass in his pants and skill in his hands to make that promise true (if the pilot has doubts about how far their skills can take them, then it's incumbent on them that they stand-down).

Lay off the Xanax if you're flying, and mine shafts just don't have that "homey" feeling. Thanks for asking.
 
Zeldman said:
I am very happy to see all survived this accident.

Of the 23 pilots I knew that were killed in Alaska, weather was a major factor in 16 of those accidents. The plane was usually found like the one pictured, just a short distance below the ridge or in the trees close to the shore line. 3 others were doing off airport work, 1 was dropping candy to kids, tight turn, stall, crash. 1 was killed trying to save a gear up landing and VMCed into the ground. He survived the accident but not the fire. 1 was killed taking pictures. 1 other there was no determination as to what happened. The plane was found in a smoking hole, near vertical impact, last week of employment going to an airline, young wife, new baby, no pre-impact anomalies found in what was left of the plane.

I was supposed to be on this flight. It bothered me for years. Still does as I was supposed to be on the flight. https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...ID=20001212X19658&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA
Click to expand...

That’s gotta be tough knowing so many who didn’t make it home. My dad was a career pilot. Canadian bush, the arctic, Africa, etc. He only recently shared some stories of pilots that he had known that perished. I’m sure he has known many more. The one that had him the most po’d about was in Africa. A pilot was flying a couple of students home from the Bible college that my Grandparents ran, and attempted an ifr descent using nothing but a stopwatch (that’s my dad’s account — not sure how he knew that except maybe this is something that particular pilot did frequently?). Ended up in the side of a mountain.

His near death story was an engine out at night in the middle of nowhere Canada, in the winter season. He said the only thing that saved him was a truck filled with drunk Indians. Lol. Set the plane down behind the truck and they tied a rope to the plane and towed it to an airport. Not sure how much embellishment is in that but I think it’s funny as heck.
 
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