Airventure Arrival Practice

EdFred said:
My name is kyle, rules don't apply to me!

Class G airspace.​


(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and
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Unless required, what ever that means. Sometimes I think Cirrus made a bunch of SR22s that right traffic at Class G airports is required.
 
Clip4 said:
I guess some people need more reading than a NOTAM.

A total of four people were killed and two others were injured during two different aircraft incidents during EAA's AirVenture in 2023.
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I don't think anyone was hurt/killed doing the arrival/departure procedures. I'm aware of the crash in the UL area, and are you counting the T6 that crashed in the lake? That was a loss of control accident near Oshkosh, but really had nothing to do with the NOTAMed activies.
 
Datadriver said:
You have the option of flying at 2300 feet and 135 knots all the way to Fisk.
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Please don't do that unless your plane isn't safely capable of 90 or less. IF the plane is capable but the pilot isn't comfortable maintaining 90KTS and 1800MSL, then don't fly in. It's that simple. The problem with the high approach is that traffic gets merged with the low folks past FISK as they join the downwind and they are descending into the merge which is not ideal.
Clip4 said:
I guess some people need more reading than a NOTAM.

A total of four people were killed and two others were injured during two different aircraft incidents during EAA's AirVenture in 2023.


EAA spokesman Dick Knapinski said that on Saturday the pilot of a Bonanza landed on the opposite runway to which he or she was cleared. According to people who heard the resulting mayhem on the radio, controllers frantically ordered the pilots of aircraft on final for the correct runway to go around and sent those on their way to the runway to hold areas.

The EAA does not release the ground incidents where aircraft are damaged, but if you walk around the event the day after it is over the evidence remains.
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I'd say most of the actual OSH accidents had little to do with the NOTAM (although it has been a contributing issue at times) and more to with poor ADM and/or poor basic stick and rudder skills. If a pilot is rusty or is weak, I'd recommend putting in some practice and/or getting some instruction prior to launching up to OSH. Oh and read the NOTAM, understand the NOTAM, be the NOTAM.
 
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Okay, take this for what it's worth. Our plane has a speed card velcro'd to the visor with rpm/configuration/speed for doing approaches. Some of those are for 90kts flaps up, 90kts with 10° flaps as well as other speeds that include descent rates as well as straight and level. So set the power and configuration and you've got your 90 kts.

Next, I took a map of Oshkosh and figured out distances and altitudes for each point in the downwind/base/final for each runway and dot. I only did 27 and 18 since they're the ones with tight downwind/base/final maneuvering. From that, I drew a map and marked each point with a nominal altitude/speed/descent I needed to be at. I put all that information into index cards and then laminated them.

Okay, so the last thing I should be is heads down reading index cards in the pattern at KOSH. So, while it's quiet (days/night before, or coming up from south and I hear the ATIS), I use them to review what the numbers should be. However, I always fly with someone else, so if I'm PF, I have them make sure I'm where I should be while they're also looking for traffic and verifying radio calls with me. If I'm the passenger, then I'm helping the pilot know where he should be.

But also, I practice before going to Oshkosh and make sure I'm comfortable with what needs to be done to fly safely at KOSH.

Actually, last year we came up from East Troy (cheap gas!!), straight to Green Lake, then joined the conga line just as they released the hold around Green Lake and there was one plane in front of us and a large gap in front of him. He struggled with the distinction between a road and railroad tracks, but he kept his speed up. He went to 27 and we got 36, so it was just a normal long left base, then final, with no one in front of us. So I didn't need the cards (just followed the NOTAM) and flew normally.

I know some folks have such a practiced eye and are one with the plane and the atmosphere, so they can float in like a seagull to the admiring applause of the spectators, but I do what I can to make it an science as well as an art.
 
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kyleb said:
My reality, if not yours, is that if I'm at the local field at say 6:30 AM on a Tuesday and there's no traffic, I may practice what I think makes me a better pilot. Maybe the impossible turn, short field takeoffs, go-arounds or an aborted takeoff. Even a true deadstick landing. Maybe (crazy talk, I know) a tight base to final from a right downwind. I think you become a better pilot by doing different things. I don't see it as anti-authority or anti-rule. I see it as practice under controlled conditions.
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Sadly, your reality would be getting a rough awakening if someone decided to report you to the FSDO. People with more certificates than you have had them suspended for making right hand turns at uncontrolled fields with left hand patterns.
This has been discussed on PoA before, here's an archived AOPA discussion on this from 2013. I was able to find the actual published NTSB decision on the first case some years ago, but can't find it right now.

The conclusion is that, unless you're turning outside of the FAF (or about 5-6 miles, at which point you're just setting up for a straight-in approach), you should be making no right hand turns in the pattern at a left-handed airport.

 
Reminder that an airport with a Right Pattern is so subtly labelled "RP" in the airport information on the chart. If you can't find one near you, call up a class delta and tell them what you want to do.
 
I briefly listened to the Osh feed over the cams running yesterday. Almost every person in the pattern asking for right traffic and short approaches.


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Jereme Carne said:
Many also fret too much about landing perfectly on their dot. Ummm, it's more of a ballpark, don't force it. That being said, you should be proficient enough to spot land within reason.

Now if one of these days the aviation Gods will give me 36R I would be thankful (easiest taxi to HBC). Never ever got anything else other than 27. haha
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I've done the Fisk arrival ~40 times, and I've only gotten 36R once. I liked it though - No braking or trying to dive into the grass ASAP, just let 'er roll all the way down. Even got a "Great job Mooney, welcome to Oshkosh!" out of it. :)

Clip4 said:
I guess some people need more reading than a NOTAM.

A total of four people were killed and two others were injured during two different aircraft incidents during EAA's AirVenture in 2023.
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At least one of the two crashes had nothing to do with the NOTAM (the warbird over Lake Winnebago)... And I don't think the heli/gyro crash had anything to do with the NOTAM either.

That's not to say that there aren't people who don't read/follow the NOTAM correctly, but there have never been any fatalities on the Fisk arrival.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I've done the Fisk arrival ~40 times, and I've only gotten 36R once. I liked it though - No braking or trying to dive into the grass ASAP, just let 'er roll all the way down. Even got a "Great job Mooney, welcome to Oshkosh!" out of it. :)


At least one of the two crashes had nothing to do with the NOTAM (the warbird over Lake Winnebago)... And I don't think the heli/gyro crash had anything to do with the NOTAM either.

That's not to say that there aren't people who don't read/follow the NOTAM correctly, but there have never been any fatalities on the Fisk arrival.
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Most of the issues aren’t on the Fisk arrival and have nothing to do with the Notam - although the a Fisk arrival is aviation insanity. It’s the damage to aircraft occurring on the ground that goes unreported.
 
Clip4 said:
Most of the issues aren’t on the Fisk arrival and have nothing to do with the Notam. The damage the occurs to aircraft once on the ground if off the hook.
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We started this whole thing when @kyleb said:

kyleb said:
Been there at 100 hours. Pay attention, follow the NOTAM, and fly the airplane. Ain’t a Herculean task.
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And you replied:
Clip4 said:
I guess some people need more reading than a NOTAM.

A total of four people were killed and two others were injured during two different aircraft incidents during EAA's AirVenture in 2023.
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So, @kyleb's advice is solid. The issues you were talking about fall under "pay attention" and "fly the airplane".
 
I agree with the above but two things from my experience last year should be added to your practice sessions. Follow a plane at a half mile in trail. No more and no less. Let your adsb-in app yell at you about traffic. Don’t mute it because the one you don’t see is the one the app is warning you about. Step 2. now that you have the size of this plane burned in your mind, they should slow down. You gotta slow to maintain half mile in trail. Slow down until … when? What is your bug out speed? Mine was when I was clearly behind the power curve.

I caught up to the same slow aircraft twice on Fisk. Five other aircraft caught up the slow guy too. Fisk sent them all out over the lake. The slow guy had no problem doing 110kts from Maine but couldn’t do 90 on the arrival. :rolleyes:
 
One other thing I was just thinking of: Practice flying a perfect 3 degree glidepath at 90 knots, and see how close to touchdown you can get before you slow to landing speed, while ensuring you do get to landing speed before crossing the runway threshold. It's best for everyone if you don't slow down until you have to!
 
Clip4 said:
Most of the issues aren’t on the Fisk arrival and have nothing to do with the Notam - although the a Fisk arrival is aviation insanity. It’s the damage to aircraft occurring on the ground that goes unreported.
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I would agree with that assessment. From my perspective most of the issues that have resulted accidents is the tight downwind/base to a spot landing that a lot of pilots simply don't practice in an aircraft near GW. I see the arrival and familiarity/adherence to the NOTAM as potential contributing factors, but not the smoking guns. That said I'm a staunch advocate for pilots getting out and practicing all phases of the OSH flight prior to showing up.

Oh and for those who might be interested the helicopter -autogyro crash last year had nothing to do with the VFR arrival or the NOTAM. Here's a good overview:
 
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