Airshow Permit?

SkyHog

SkyHog

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Everything Offends Me
Lets say we all decided to put on a show at 6Y9, like formation flights, smoke shows, etc. Lets neglect the additional training that we would need....

Do we need a special permit for this activity? Otherwise, wouldn't the flight be considered "reckless and dangerous?"
 
IIRC, you need some sort of waiver from the local FSDO. Not sure what it 'waives', but there is some sort of paperwork to do. No to mention the municipal regulations - but we could probably ask the 'Mayor' at the gas station to get approval at 6Y9. :D
 
I talk with the FSDO, issue a NOTAM, etc...

The only other issue is we are pretty close to an airway up there. I think the pattern for 10 has you far enough from the airway, and the pattern for 28 has you too close. lol
 
SkyHog said:
Lets say we all decided to put on a show at 6Y9, like formation flights, smoke shows, etc. Lets neglect the additional training that we would need....

Do we need a special permit for this activity? Otherwise, wouldn't the flight be considered "reckless and dangerous?"
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I think the biggest hurdle would be insurance.
 
smigaldi said:
I think the biggest hurdle would be insurance.
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For what? The trees? If, and a huge if, we ever did something up there, I wouldn't have the box be over the field. There's a great open viewing area about 2 miles west of town. All federal land, no structures underneath it. Of course, if there were a crash, it could start a forest fire.
 
EdFred said:
For what? The trees? If, and a huge if, we ever did something up there, I wouldn't have the box be over the field. There's a great open viewing area about 2 miles west of town. All federal land, no structures underneath it. Of course, if there were a crash, it could start a forest fire.
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The FAA won't care if you have insurance or not, but without it, the organizers are putting their assets on the line if anything bad happens during such an event.
 
EdFred said:
For what?
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Loss of income. If anything were to happen and Hoppy's lost all that alcohol sales....why...someone would have to pay. ;)

Just look at how mad they were the Tony was not there this year!!! The GDP of Sidnaw and Kenton probably dropped by one or two points!!
 
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SkyHog said:
Lets say we all decided to put on a show at 6Y9, like formation flights, smoke shows, etc. Lets neglect the additional training that we would need....

Do we need a special permit for this activity? Otherwise, wouldn't the flight be considered "reckless and dangerous?"
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Ron's link has all the required info but AFaIK if you don't need to bend any FARs you don't need anything from the FAA. IOW if all the flybys and aerobatics are at legal altitudes etc, no permits are needed.
 
gismo said:
Ron's link has all the required info but AFaIK if you don't need to bend any FARs you don't need anything from the FAA. IOW if all the flybys and aerobatics are at legal altitudes etc, no permits are needed.
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You will need something from the FAA if you want to close the airspace around the show ("waivered airspace"), and you don't want to try a show of any kind without that. Also, even if the pilot has a low-altitude aerobatic waiver (ACE card), you still need an FAA show waiver if you want to have spectators. BTW, if you want formation flybys within "waivered airspace," even non-aerobatic, the pilots will need formation cards. Finally, if you do this, you will have FAA Inspectors "surveilling" the show and checking paperwork on all participants.
 
Many (many) years ago my initial CFI staged an "airshow" at 57C to inaugerate his ownership of the FBO. A fellow flew a Pitt's around the pattern, and of course they had skydivers and they also had a dozen hot air balloons or so that were going to race.

Now one of the dillegance had been done and so a stern inspector materialized from Milwaukee.

The "show" was quickly scaled back and it was decided that the balloons could not race. Now, they were of course allowed to take off in the morning and they all launced at the same time at dawn and blew off down wind all together and it was very cool. I overheard someone in the crowd lament that the FAA had shut the race down. Now how do you tell the difference between a balloon race, and a flock of them all blowing the same direction?
 
Ron Levy said:
You will need something from the FAA if you want to close the airspace around the show ("waivered airspace"), and you don't want to try a show of any kind without that. Also, even if the pilot has a low-altitude aerobatic waiver (ACE card), you still need an FAA show waiver if you want to have spectators. BTW, if you want formation flybys within "waivered airspace," even non-aerobatic, the pilots will need formation cards. Finally, if you do this, you will have FAA Inspectors "surveilling" the show and checking paperwork on all participants.
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Can't you have "formation fly-bys" at or above 1000 above any structures within 2000 ft and a (albeit less interesting to watch) aerobatic demonstration above 1500 AGL off airway in class E or G space without waivered airspace?
 
Ron Levy said:
You will need something from the FAA if you want to close the airspace around the show ("waivered airspace"), and you don't want to try a show of any kind without that. Also, even if the pilot has a low-altitude aerobatic waiver (ACE card), you still need an FAA show waiver if you want to have spectators. BTW, if you want formation flybys within "waivered airspace," even non-aerobatic, the pilots will need formation cards. Finally, if you do this, you will have FAA Inspectors "surveilling" the show and checking paperwork on all participants.
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Concur. Especially about the FAA being there.
 
gismo said:
Can't you have "formation fly-bys" at or above 1000 above any structures within 2000 ft and a (albeit less interesting to watch) aerobatic demonstration above 1500 AGL off airway in class E or G space without waivered airspace?
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You can't have an aerobatic demonstration over a crowd without a waiver. 91.303(b). You can have all the formation fly-bys you want without waivered airspace, but then you don't control the airspace, and non-show folks can fly through, takeoff, land, etc., in the middle of your show. If I were leading a formation for a demo in that situation, I'd decline to play.
 
If there were substantial FAA activities up there I would not attend. I am by the book legal but they can always find something on yoru aircraft they don't like.
 
bbchien said:
If there were substantial FAA activities up there I would not attend. I am by the book legal but they can always find something on yoru aircraft they don't like.
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this is what i was thinking too. but it is nick that is asking about this not ed or brad. i think we are safe that there will be no faa to a 6y9 airshow event.
 
bbchien said:
If there were substantial FAA activities up there I would not attend. I am by the book legal but they can always find something on yoru aircraft they don't like.
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The FAA Inspectors at an event like this are only looking at participants, not attendees (unless you do something eye-catching).
2) Under no circumstances should these gatherings be targeted for a blanket sweep inspection of spectator airmen and aircraft.
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Well, this was 100% hypothetical, so I don't see this happening anyway. Isn't the FAA supposed to avoid trolling such events for busts?
 
SkyHog said:
Well, this was 100% hypothetical, so I don't see this happening anyway. Isn't the FAA supposed to avoid trolling such events for busts?
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I think I just said that three posts up, with the prohibition quoted from FAA Order 8900.1. In any event, I think you may have a better idea of the amount of work that must go into an airshow event with aerobatics, fly-bys, and spectators. I hope it makes everyone better appreciate the efforts of those who organize such shows.
 
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Ron Levy said:
You will need something from the FAA if you want to close the airspace around the show ("waivered airspace"), and you don't want to try a show of any kind without that. Also, even if the pilot has a low-altitude aerobatic waiver (ACE card), you still need an FAA show waiver if you want to have spectators. BTW, if you want formation flybys within "waivered airspace," even non-aerobatic, the pilots will need formation cards. Finally, if you do this, you will have FAA Inspectors "surveilling" the show and checking paperwork on all participants.
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... which all but guarantees that a 6Y9-style, small, small-town fly-in would be better off not bothering with the paperwork if they were gonna do such a thing. WTG, FAA. :rolleyes:
 
One of the local airports here has a pre-established "aerobatic box" over the field for practice. Comes in handy when having a fly-in/cook-out. A call to ATC makes the box hot on request. ATC notifies aircraft working their frequency and Unicom notifies inbound/outbound VFR. Not exactly suited for low-level aerobatics, but it allows the local pilots an opportunity to demo their skills over the airport in view of the attendees.
 
Steve said:
One of the local airports here has a pre-established "aerobatic box" over the field for practice. Comes in handy when having a fly-in/cook-out. A call to ATC makes the box hot on request. ATC notifies aircraft working their frequency and Unicom notifies inbound/outbound VFR. Not exactly suited for low-level aerobatics, but it allows the local pilots an opportunity to demo their skills over the airport in view of the attendees.
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While I recognize that having a fly-in while the box happens to be active is not necessarily an "airshow," I think that if you invite spectators for an aerobatic demo over the airport (even in a pre-existing box), the FAA is going to want an airshow waiver. I could be wrong, but if I'm not, it's not the sort of thing you want the FAA hearing about after the fact.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
... which all but guarantees that a 6Y9-style, small, small-town fly-in would be better off not bothering with the paperwork if they were gonna do such a thing. WTG, FAA. :rolleyes:
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I agree -- just don't invite spectators if there will be flight demonstrations unless you want the FAA up your nose.
 
Ron's correct in that advertising it to the public makes it an airshow in the eyes of the FAA. If you don't advertise it or otherwise invite "the public" then it's possible to get a few pilots together and do some showing off for each other - under the proper circumstances.
 
bbchien said:
If there were substantial FAA activities up there I would not attend. I am by the book legal but they can always find something on yoru aircraft they don't like.
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Bruce,

The few waivered events I've been around, the FAA guys dont get all ramp-checky and barney fife. They hang out, eyeball the show, look for anything outrageous or not in keeping with the waiver (like a jet making a low pass inside the show line, etc). They may not even have their credentials visible unless they have a reason to approach you formally. The only reason I knew who the FAA guys were, is because the folks I was with KNEW them on a first name basis from past shows and dealing with the FSDO.

Joe Blow has very very little to worry about unless his plane looks like its made of recycled tinfoil and baling wire and pencilwhipped its last 4 annuals.
 
I would offer the same comment. In what I observed it seemed the message was there was a right-way-to-do-it that would have been fairly straightforward and they even would have helped and then there was the screwball way it was accomplished (hope nobody noticed the airshow and fliers and ads). The overriding concern was safety and in the small scale of what was going on it would have been pretty easy to satisfy a priori.
 
The local FSDO hasn't had a problem with the practice to date. And it's not uncommon for them to attend. It's not something that's done covertly.

Ron Levy said:
While I recognize that having a fly-in while the box happens to be active is not necessarily an "airshow," I think that if you invite spectators for an aerobatic demo over the airport (even in a pre-existing box), the FAA is going to want an airshow waiver. I could be wrong, but if I'm not, it's not the sort of thing you want the FAA hearing about after the fact.
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I really don't see the FAA coming to 6Y9 - ever.
 
Ron Levy said:
You will need something from the FAA if you want to close the airspace around the show ("waivered airspace"), and you don't want to try a show of any kind without that. Also, even if the pilot has a low-altitude aerobatic waiver (ACE card), you still need an FAA show waiver if you want to have spectators. BTW, if you want formation flybys within "waivered airspace," even non-aerobatic, the pilots will need formation cards. Finally, if you do this, you will have FAA Inspectors "surveilling" the show and checking paperwork on all participants.
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If there were people there eating free a lunch, and two airplanes flew over the airport in formation and then flew around the pattern and landed in formation I simply do not see how that would require a waiver, aerobatic card, or formation card.
 
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jesse said:
If there were people there eating a free lunch, and two airplanes flew over the airport in formation and then flew around the pattern and landed in formation I simply do not see how that would require a waiver, aerobatic card, or formation card.
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Nor I. I've seen that happen at a lot of fly-ins where there was no waiver, including ones with an FAA presence, and I've been in formation fly-by's like you describe. But if I'm going to lead a formation demonstration (which is rather more than what you described), I want to be sure that nobody's going to take off, land, or fly through the airspace while the demo is in progress. That means a waiver, and a waiver means formation cards and an FAA presence.
 
What do you consider "the public"? The fly-in attendees or the passerbys that pull into the parking lot to see why the ramp is full of planes? No invitations to watch aerobatics are involved. Do aerobatic boxes have restrictions on how many people can look at it when there's a plane in it?

Maybe the TSA should look into this. Has all the signs of a precursor to organized terrorist activities.

Ron Levy said:
Which practice -- folks doing aerobatics in the box during a fly-in, or inviting the public to see it?
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There's a whole separate set of guidelines the FAA uses for an air show vs. an aerobatic practice or contest. The key distinction seems to be advertising it to the public (i.e. encouraging the participation of crowds of folk that assume the government is there to protect them.) There are airports where aerobatic activity is all legal with no waiver as long as it stays above 1500' AGL. There are also airports were we have practice waivers that can be opened by any designated pilot(s) that permit aerobatic activity down to the surface, yes even while the airport is open (that's usually a call made by the airport manager whether to close the airport or not). We have contest waivers where we have dozens of aircraft flying aerobatic sequences over the airport all day long from the surface up to 3500' - also while the airport is open typically. We have some very well disciplined and well thought out procedures for managing communications and safety with the pilot in a hot aerobatic box that make this all reasonably safe.

When we have practice days and contests, there will always be a smattering of "the public" that will show up to see what all the cool pilots are doing and we're always welcoming and use it as an opportunity to show how well organized and safe aerobatic practice/contests are. There's no problem with the public showing up and watching these events. OTOH, if we had a radio station advertising what we were doing we'd be an air show, not the event we planned to have. Air shows require all that stuff in the link Ron posted like 500' dead lines and crowd control and FAA inspections of credentials and such.

I'm posting all this to encourage anyone thinking of having such an event to get involved with one of the organizations that promote and protect your ability to do so. The EAA for fly-ins, the IAC for aerobatic events, and ICAS for air shows. We should be encouraging airports and airport bums like us to have these kinds of events and make it easy for them to do so. There are people at those organizations I listed waiting on your call to help you if you're willing to join and help them with your membership.
 
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