Airplane crunched in South Dakota

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PaulS

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PaulS
Apparently no injuries, but not too good for the airplane. Find the errors in procedure, discuss.

 
Eek


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Beacon not on at startup. No factor.
Shoulder harness not on. No factor.
 
Optimism is a good trait. Most of the time.
 
Doesn’t look like much wind.

Watching the elevator it doesn’t look look like the yoke is pulled back to help keep weight off the nose wheel. I would think snow would definitely be treated as a soft field.

Nose wheel heavy looks like it started to dig in and the ass end of the plane tries to pass the front.

Just a guess.
 
Me thinks he should have taken a blade to his runway and at least knocked some of the crust off that snow. That hard pack will get you every time no matter how fat your tires are.
 
And the nose wheel (and fork?) look to be upgraded oversized. More rolling resistance, especially in snow.

It actually looks like the nosewheel comes up right at the wind sock. But not sure if it’s because it bounced. Maybe tried to lift off too early/too slow?
 
Seems like too much flaps and tailwind take off. That wind sock is almost straight out, not quite, but close enough, I would say 10 knot, maybe more tail wind. Add the snow to that and the nose wheel wasn't off the ground. The guy just had a bad day.
 
Has cowl flaps like a 182 but split rear window like a 172 so any idea what this is.

Speaking from leaking nose strut experience, his nose strut looks almost totally collapsed at startup. My guess follows @arkvet with nose wheel somehow dug in even though you could see him holding it early in the takeoff. And that a big nose wheel tire!
 
Look at the nose strut. Cold air flattened it?

Snow depth at the hangar looked Ok, but hard to tell later down on the runway. Must have been deeper for the nose wheel to dig in like it did. Even though the elevator is nose up position, I like it full up until the nose wheel comes off the ground. Yoke in the lap on take offs in even light snow.
 
He should have just done a vertical takeoff and saved the deductible.
 
@PaulS asked for procedure problems so I’ll mention the biggest one. Not having a no-go point on that takeoff.

Especially in snow, if you know you’ll have no traction for braking, your limit needs to be where you can stop from. Which was waaaaay before that windsock. He looks like he tried to stop after the sock and slid into the ravine.

You can take a shot at that takeoff and abandon it easy if the speed doesn’t come up. Nobody believes the book numbers for contaminated runways is going to cover that grass/snow mess. But you don’t know so set a limit and see.

Also neither the comments here nor the comments on YT ask... how heavy was the airplane? What’s the fuel load on board plus three big guys?

I’ve been trying to freeze frame it to decide if the flaps are at 20 instead of 10 where I’d expect them to be for a soft field in that airplane. Inconclusive to me. Maybe someone else can tell.
 
Hmmm, downwind departure with a ditch at the end of the runway....turned out to be not real good planing.

That said, I'm sure Henning, Salty, Tarheel, and a few other pilots could have got it off the ground...
 
denverpilot said:
@PaulS asked for procedure problems so I’ll mention the biggest one. Not having a no-go point on that takeoff.

Especially in snow, if you know you’ll have no traction for braking, your limit needs to be where you can stop from. Which was waaaaay before that windsock. He looks like he tried to stop after the sock and slid into the ravine.

You can take a shot at that takeoff and abandon it easy if the speed doesn’t come up. Nobody believes the book numbers for contaminated runways is going to cover that grass/snow mess. But you don’t know so set a limit and see.

Also neither the comments here nor the comments on YT ask... how heavy was the airplane? What’s the fuel load on board plus three big guys?

I’ve been trying to freeze frame it to decide if the flaps are at 20 instead of 10 where I’d expect them to be for a soft field in that airplane. Inconclusive to me. Maybe someone else can tell.
Click to expand...


Some years the 182 POH says 10 degrees of flaps, some years it says 20. Not sure why the changes.

It looked to me like he tried to force it off before flying speed was attained, and then settled back down as he came to a rise.

As he passes the camera, slight nose up elevator is present, though I would have expected a little more up elevator.


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Eric Gleason said:
Some years the 182 POH says 10 degrees of flaps, some years it says 20. Not sure why the changes.
Click to expand...

I don't know for sure when the changes came about (maybe with the 182P?) but the older 182 will definitely do short/soft field takeoffs better with 20 degrees of flap than 10. The flap setting looked about right to my untrained eye.

Eric Gleason said:
It looked to me like he tried to force it off before flying speed was attained, and then settled back down as he came to a rise.

As he passes the camera, slight nose up elevator is present, though I would have expected a little more up elevator.
Click to expand...

That's what it looked like to me too. I wondered if he maybe didn't force it into the air and didn't have enough control authority which caused the yaw to the left.
 
Eric Gleason said:
Some years the 182 POH says 10 degrees of flaps, some years it says 20. Not sure why the changes.

It looked to me like he tried to force it off before flying speed was attained, and then settled back down as he came to a rise.

As he passes the camera, slight nose up elevator is present, though I would have expected a little more up elevator.
Click to expand...

Hmmm I haven’t seen any say 20 but that doesn’t mean they aren’t out there.

Mine says 20 but that’s the STOL addendum change.

He’s definitely not fast enough and not accelerating enough throughout the whole thing.

Agree on the elevator, I was surprised he left the nosegear on the ground at all.

It also sounds to me like that engine isn’t producing full power but mics on video cameras or phones aren’t all that great so it’s hard to tell.

In the end I think you have a good old boy who’s flown off that strip a bunch, probably often by himself, when it’s dry grass, who was surprised by the performance difference with two more dudes on board and the grass/snow drag.

The airplane having larger fires and the upgraded nose fork says he probably does more off pavement stuff than most of us.

If you’re not halfway or more to flying speed by halfway down whatever you’ve got for a runway, you’re in trouble. Better shut it down and get it stopped.

Dude loses the 0-60 thread too. LOL.
 
Our 182P POH allows up to 20deg flaps for soft field and short field takeoffs.

It looks like a 182 but has a split rear window,
 
Sinistar said:
Our 182P POH allows up to 20deg flaps for soft field and short field takeoffs.

It looks like a 182 but has a split rear window,
Click to expand...

I guess it does... you’re right. Pilot’s discretion to use 0-20 in my book pre-changes. Choose wisely. :)

182 E-model has the split rear window I believe. 1962.

And that’s exactly what the N-number comes up as in the registration database. C-182E. :)

One year, then the F model made it a single pane window.

Also looks like the owner just bought it in August of 2017 from someone in Wyoming.

I thought that airplane looked familiar. It was owned by someone in Brighton, CO until 2006.
 
There were only 2 guys in the plane. Even with full tanks it should have pretty good performance in that cold air.

Anyone know how long the strip is?


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Eric Gleason said:
There were only 2 guys in the plane. Even with full tanks it should have pretty good performance in that cold air.

Anyone know how long the strip is?
Click to expand...

I swore I saw a third get out at the end. After the right seater walks around to the left side.

The length of the strip is: Not long enough. :) :) :)
 
The comments are priceless! Lots of 10k hour pilots on YouTube these days!


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Who can say for sure,should have asked the pilot? Tail wind,snow ,flaps stuff happens.
 
There were only two passengers, you can see the rear seat is empty when he starts taxiing out.
 
Flaps appeared to be 10* to me.

Maybe forward CG? That nose didn't want to come up although the pilot may not have had enough elevator. should have had that yoke further back IMO until gaining some lift.

Nice cartwheel though. :cool:
 
I'm with @denverpilot with the "needed a no-go point"...

As far as technique, I've always held off applying any flaps until immediately before rotation. I've experimented on soft fields, and I've found I can get off the ground quicker (less distance) if I hold off on the flaps to rotation vs flaps at the start, with both my current plane (PA28) and my past C150...although the difference isn't much.
 
He forgot that airplane performance just isn't the same when it's so warm outside.
 
Did he go off the end, or lose directional control and go off the side?
 
azure said:
It looked to me as if he went off the side, so I think he lost directional control. Maybe the left main encountered softer snow and started digging in.
Click to expand...
Watching it again, I think you're right...there seems to be a mowed area (no grass sticking up through the snow) and an un-mowed area (with grass sticking up). Looks like he left the mowed area as he passed the camera man. Also, the fact that on the takeoff roll the camera man has to move (Obviously the plane wasn't going where the camera man thought it would)!
 
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I think he hit a whoop dee doo, got airborne for a second, then it went to hell. He did look like he swerved to the left before he got to the video guy, the guy actually reacted when he saw it coming. Not enough rudder? I still think that nose wheel should have been off the ground very early in that roll.
 
azure said:
It looked to me as if he went off the side, so I think he lost directional control. Maybe the left main encountered softer snow and started digging in.
Click to expand...
That’s what it looked like to me too.
 
azure said:
It looked to me as if he went off the side, so I think he lost directional control. Maybe the left main encountered softer snow and started digging in.
Click to expand...
After hitting the little whoop that threw him off to the left side of the "runway", it was hitting the harder crustier snow that caused him to drag the left gear, lose control and veer off into the ditch/ravine. A few times up and down his runway with a simple drag behind a tractor would have saved him a totaled aircraft.
 
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