Airlines and GA

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GrummanBear

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The maneuvering speed thread that was here made me wonder...

What are lessons, techniques and procedures more unique to flying commercial transport aircraft are useful or applicable to flying GA? Which ones are not? Why?


Doesn’t have to be a hard and fast rule.



Constructive thoughts would be nice....

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GrummanBear said:
What are lessons, techniques and procedures more unique to flying commercial transport aircraft are useful or applicable to flying GA?
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Some things the airlines do which I think would help reduce accidents in light GA:

Use checklists.
Don't fly circling approaches.
Sterile cockpit during critical phases of flight.
Don't start an approach when the reported weather is below minimums.
Regular recurrent training (every six months).

- Martin
 
circling back to one of the points made in that other campaign.... when you do training, don't waste that precious training time practicing things that you'll never do or that don't directly help.
 
Martin Pauly said:
Some things the airlines do which I think would help reduce accidents in light GA:

Use checklists.
Don't fly circling approaches.
Sterile cockpit during critical phases of flight.
Don't start an approach when the reported weather is below minimums.
Regular recurrent training (every six months).

- Martin
Click to expand...

Martin nailed it pretty much. Procedures, training, standardization and professionalism are what separate GA from the commercial world. If every GA flight was as structured as commercial flight, and was flown by a pilot that flew 50-100 hours a month and had to go through extensive retraining and pass a check ride every 6 months, the GA accident rate would likely drop significantly.

Instead, the majority of GA folks are lucky to get a few hours a month if that, and have to fly with an instructor every two years (but not an actual checkride).
 
midwestpa24 said:
to fly with an instructor every two years
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thats the choice most GA drivers make, nothing is stopping one to fly with ans instructor every 3 months and have the instructor "evaluate" the pilot. but i agree, its not the real checkride
 
WannFly said:
thats the choice most GA drivers make, nothing is stopping one to fly with ans instructor every 3 months and have the instructor "evaluate" the pilot. but i agree, its not the real checkride
Click to expand...

That is the exception, not the rule. Probably the driving issue there is cost. Flying is expensive, paying another guy to ride with you for instruction when not strictly required is more expensive. Commercial pilots don't have to foot the bill for their recurrent training, the company does, and they only want to do the minimum too.
 
Martin Pauly said:
Some things the airlines do which I think would help reduce accidents in light GA:

Use checklists.
Don't fly circling approaches.
Sterile cockpit during critical phases of flight.
Don't start an approach when the reported weather is below minimums.
Regular recurrent training (every six months).

- Martin
Click to expand...
Would you mind elaborating on "Don't fly circling approaches"? I am not instrument rated - is this purely a IFR related comment? Or is there something VFR in this item too? Just curious, not trying to debate.
 
Sinistar said:
Would you mind elaborating on "Don't fly circling approaches"? I am not instrument rated - is this purely a IFR related comment? Or is there something VFR in this item too? Just curious, not trying to debate.
Click to expand...
Yes, it's an IFR term - it means flying an approach which leads to one runway, but then landing on a different runway ("circle to land") as opposed to landing "straight in" from the approach. You can legally do that if the weather is a little better than needed for the straight in approach, but less than VFR. If the weather is VFR, you can do a visual approach to any runway you like, and skip the instrument approach.

Many (but not all) airlines prohibit circling approaches, some at night, and others at any time. A circling approach usually means some tight turns low to the ground, in less-than-perfect weather (if it was perfect, they'd be flying a visual approach instead). It is significantly harder to fly than a straight-in approach, especially in a fast jet.

- Martin
 
midwestpa24 said:
That is the exception, not the rule. Probably the driving issue there is cost. Flying is expensive, paying another guy to ride with you for instruction when not strictly required is more expensive. Commercial pilots don't have to foot the bill for their recurrent training, the company does, and they only want to do the minimum too.
Click to expand...

2-4 hours in a year , say 2 hours every six months ..... pretty cheap considering it may keep you from doing something dumb. It’s a personal choice between being current and proficient. My opinion, not saying it should be done one way or another. That’s how I do it.
 
I'll take a hack at this. I'm an Airline F/O and CFI and try to bring airline discipline into GA where its helpful.
In the GA world we can just check the Wx and launch, we don't have much in the way of prescriptive guidance outside of the basic 91 rules. In GA when the forecast at your destination calls for a 15k crosswind and dry runway; the ATIS reports 20k and wet, what the hell, lets give it a try..
Airlines follow SOP -Standard Operating Procedures. They define how we behave and set limits that don't exist for GA.
IMSAFE is a great example of how an airline style SOP has percolated down. In my CFI career I've met many well disciplined and thoughtful pilots, and they all have 'Personal Minimums' and stick to them.
Yes, constant training is important; and Airlines do a great job of updating LOFT scenarios, but I still have to stall an Airbus every 6 months and do steep turns to ATP standards....
 
jordane93 said:
Better stabilized approach criteria
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GrummanBear said:
How would you define that for a GA pilot?
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All well and good until ATC leaves you high and fast. Yes, even after asking to start down sooner. In good weather I can cancel IFR and get to a better descent which sets it up for a better approach.

I've had one apologize after realizing I wasn't flying a pressurized plane after asking for a very rapid descent to a fix. That one wasn't into the airport, it was to get down the the preferred altitude across the north side of the Atlanta Bravo airspace.



Wayne
 
Additionally, the FAA has mandated 'Upset Recovery Training' for 121 pilots now. Simulators around the world have been upgraded with much better aerodynamic models and we spend a couple of hours each recurrent event saving the lives of billions of electrons. :)
I've completed and highly recommend similar light aircraft courses. -https://www.apstraining.com/program/vfr-pilot-upset-training/has some amazing offerings and the instructors are Mil Fast jet instructors. It's worth every penny.
 

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GrummanBear said:
How would you define that for a GA pilot?
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With such a variety of airplanes and comfort levels of pilots in GA, I don't think it's helpful to define to specific values. But for me it means that I have in mind a specific point in the approach to a runway where I need to be on speed and configured for landing. And if I'm not there I go around. No thoughts of, "Welllll, I'm in a 172 and I have 5000' of pavement - I'll make it work." You go around, period. If later you decide that you're being too conservative and thus move that decision point closer to the runway - fine. But once the plan is in place, you stick to it.

It's more about developing an attitude where you have specific lines in the sand and there's no grey area. The idea of an SOP is what I carry into how I fly GA. That'll govern everything from stabilization criteria to how I run checklists. It might not be the same SOP - a 172 is not a 737 and I fly GA to enjoy myself - but the discipline in which I follow my little set rules in the 172 is very much the same.
 
wayne said:
All well and good until ATC leaves you high and fast. Yes, even after asking to start down sooner. In good weather I can cancel IFR and get to a better descent which sets it up for a better approach.

I've had one apologize after realizing I wasn't flying a pressurized plane after asking for a very rapid descent to a fix. That one wasn't into the airport, it was to get down the the preferred altitude across the north side of the Atlanta Bravo airspace.



Wayne
Click to expand...
“Unable”

“I need delay vectors”

I think there should be some sort of criteria. I just don’t know exactly how I’d do it though.
 
Martin Pauly said:
Yes, it's an IFR term - it means flying an approach which leads to one runway, but then landing on a different runway ("circle to land") as opposed to landing "straight in" from the approach. You can legally do that if the weather is a little better than needed for the straight in approach, but less than VFR. If the weather is VFR, you can do a visual approach to any runway you like, and skip the instrument approach.

Many (but not all) airlines prohibit circling approaches, some at night, and others at any time. A circling approach usually means some tight turns low to the ground, in less-than-perfect weather (if it was perfect, they'd be flying a visual approach instead). It is significantly harder to fly than a straight-in approach, especially in a fast jet.

- Martin
Click to expand...
Awesome explanation, thanks for taking the time to explain!
 
From the 10,000 foot view, and without getting into specific techniques (which I think actually muddies this conversation unfortunately), I think the two things that GA pilots should do that the airlines do is:

- Fly with a variety of other pilots to observe and learn from one another (both good and bad)
- Stay current and get recurrent training of some sort regularly with an instructor
 
Training/Recurrent, Currency/Consistent flying and SOPs. All of these are huge! Between the Airline, Guard and GA, I fly somewhere between 600 and 800 hours a year. Even with all that flying, if I go more than a couple weeks without flying, I feel rusty. I can't even imagine going months without flying. Consistency is one thing that keeps me sharp.

I was a CFI circa 2004-2006, since then I've been flying for the military and the airlines. I've recently gotten back into GA flying and I'm currently (thanks to COVID), taking the time to brush up on my CFI...you know actually pay attention to the American flyer FIRC :D. But seriously, I'm amazed at the resources and technology that is at our fingertips. Books that I used to have to go to a store and buy, I can download off the FAA website. As always the information is only as good as your source, but you can sit down a watch a few youtube videos and learn A LOT. I know some people have their feelings (a pilot with an opinion...say it ain't so), but I generally love what these guys are attempting to do for GA.


Here are some dated videos that I've watched a few times over my airline career. There are about 4 or 5 videos in this series and are worth a watch, especially if you're an airline guy. Lots of useful tidbits and reminders that are still relevant today. Dude is a great speaker.

 
wayne said:
All well and good until ATC leaves you high and fast.
Click to expand...

This happens to pro crews every day.

“Unable.” is the correct response. But, they’re usually way ahead of this.

Planning a TOD or Too Of Descent point, beyond which the trend is going to turn stupid rapidly... so you know where you need to start asking to fix it, is also a pro skill.

Modern avionics can often do it and it’s an overlooked feature by many. But without avionics help, it should still be a habit.

“We need to start down” is better than “unable” later, if that makes sense.

If he’s got traffic below you, you can negotiate for vectors or slowing to avoid the upcoming trap.

Foreflight has a vertical descent rate to destination info block that can be configured to be on the chart bottom. It’s more useful than a couple of the default settings, especially single pilot.
 
denverpilot said:
This happens to pro crews every day.

“Unable.” is the correct response. But, they’re usually way ahead of this.

Planning a TOD or Too Of Descent point, beyond which the trend is going to turn stupid rapidly... so you know where you need to start asking to fix it, is also a pro skill.

Modern avionics can often do it and it’s an overlooked feature by many. But without avionics help, it should still be a habit.

“We need to start down” is better than “unable” later, if that makes sense.

If he’s got traffic below you, you can negotiate for vectors or slowing to avoid the upcoming trap.

Foreflight has a vertical descent rate to destination info block that can be configured to be on the chart bottom. It’s more useful than a couple of the default settings, especially single pilot.
Click to expand...

As I said, I ask to start the descent earlier, but get turned down at times. I can do the math, and now the EFB tools make it easier. In good weather I'll cancel and descend at an appropriate spot and rate. And yes, at times I'll ask for a 360 or something else to burn off altitude.



Wayne
 
Know how to use the technology in your airplane, and don't be afraid to use it. It's not a "crutch", especially if you are IFR.

Know how to talk on the radio

Have some situational awareness. Listen to the radio, and try to get a feel for how things are going, and what other people are doing. That will eliminate some surprises.

Use your brain when it comes to using your exterior lights. You don't need to have every single light on as soon as you start the engine. Don't taxi around with your strobes on. Don't blast other airplanes in the face with your landing lights at night.
 
One of the biggest differences in the 121 world vs GA IMO is having a plan for each phase of flight. We brief everything from start up to shut down and possible threats. It helps get that shared mental model and it helps me stick to my plan during stressful situations.
 
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