Airline Hiring

K

KennyFlys

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According to Avweb, there's quite a shortage of regional pilots as many are headed to the majors. My school recently had folks on hand from ASA. Their minimums to start someone into the hiring process was remarkably low:
Commercial License - Multi-engine
First Class Medical
200 Hours Total Time
25 Hours Mult-engine
Certified Flight Instructor

That falls somewhere between scary and encouraging. If accepted, a conditional offer of employment is made. The candidate would continue teaching and prove themselves based on student performance and application as a professional pilot. So, it's not a slam dunk but it's a foot in the door to be considered as openings take place.

An Avweb piece about Indian airlines:
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/936-full.html#195951

I'm at the UPS shipping terminal at Hartsfield a few nights a week and occasionally talk to some of the pilots as they arrive. Last week, I asked one what their hiring minimums were. He shot off with "five thousand hours." I thought he was joking with me. He wasn't.

He asked if I wanted to know what the company minimums were or what they were realistically hiring. I asked for the realistic numbers. I was shocked, sort of.

They prefer at least 5,000 hours total time, almost all of it multi-engine, over water and in large turbine aircraft. Their goal is to fill out required flight crews for heavy jets on international routes, mostly 747, 757 and MD-11. So, they want a LOT of experience.

In thinking... to ideally qualify for such a position, one would need to make it on board with a company such as Air Jamaica and stay there for several years flying 320s to build the over-water flight time. :fcross:
 
I struck up a conversation with a RJ Pilot a couple weeks ago who was dead heading back home. They have dropped all requirements for hours and just want to see an instrument, commercial, multi engine rating with a 1st class medical. Republic airlines IIRC.

Gee, I could take a HUGE paycut and fly for the regionals. :no:

Really scary IMHO :hairraise:
 
I was talking to a friend the other day and he said that their washout rate now that they've dropped the entrance requirements is pretty abysmal. Around 50%! :eek:
 
yep Mesa had a big banner over their booth at oshkosh "Fly for a regional airline with only 250 TT!!"

I really had to hold back from walking up and saying "do you really think thats a good idea??"

oh well its the way it is with the industry, 5 or 6 more years and we will be back in a downswing and you'll need 2000 Turbine and the blessing of God to get in the right seat of a beech 1900
 
I need to insert a:

"KATE GET YOUR MULTI-ENGINE RATING"

before someone else does... you know who you are...

:goofy:
 
A lot of my friends are going to the regionals right now. If it's of any comfort at all the passing rate isn't so great even tho they pay for your training and don't want to fail you. But I'm with you guys. 250 pretty damn scary!

Schools are having a shortage of instructors as a result. It's hard to schedule one these days OTOH the planes are always availableB) . At one point my school had ONE instructor trying to take on ALL of the students because all of the others went to regional training. He was saying how when he started flying you were lucky if you could find a flight instructing job. He was packing on about 60 hours a week!

Question: How could one have 200 hours and a CFI rating? Correct me if I'm wrong but even if you were part 141 and did it in the minimun time it still wouldn't leave enoguh time for you to get the CFI. Right? Just wondering.
 
part 141 by the syllabus gets you a commercial in 190 hrs. i suppose CFI would be (barely) possible by 200, but you'd have to be sharp as a tack.

kate - a multi rating would be a really good investment right now.
 
tonycondon said:
yep Mesa had a big banner over their booth at oshkosh "Fly for a regional airline with only 250 TT!!"

I really had to hold back from walking up and saying "do you really think thats a good idea??"

oh well its the way it is with the industry, 5 or 6 more years and we will be back in a downswing and you'll need 2000 Turbine and the blessing of God to get in the right seat of a beech 1900
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This isn't entirely new. Back in the regulated 70's the (major) airlines were hiring pilots without a college degree and as little as 500 hrs. A friend of mine got on board that way and ended up in the right seat of an L-1011 after a couple years.
 
tonycondon said:
yep Mesa had a big banner over their booth at oshkosh "Fly for a regional airline with only 250 TT!!"

I really had to hold back from walking up and saying "do you really think thats a good idea??"

oh well its the way it is with the industry, 5 or 6 more years and we will be back in a downswing and you'll need 2000 Turbine and the blessing of God to get in the right seat of a beech 1900
Click to expand...



I'm not hugely experienced, but Mesa scares me too. Right now my company is publishing 400TT 50ME, but if you have a recomendation and you're good in the sim they'll take you at 300/100. Most of the captains I fly with had to have 2000+ to even be considered for an interview, and that was only about two years ago. It's amazing how fast this industry changes (for better or for worse).

You wanna talk about pilot shortages, though...We're about to put almost 40 new planes on the line and new hire classes are only half full. Anyone want to fly a turbo-prop in the north east?
 
Upgrade times to PIC are still 3-4 years at most regionals. Why suffer through abysmal pay rates and worse for that amount of time just for a shot at turbine PIC? Better to go 135. PIC is still the king. And you better be sharp on instruments.
 
lancefisher said:
This isn't entirely new. Back in the regulated 70's the (major) airlines were hiring pilots without a college degree and as little as 500 hrs. A friend of mine got on board that way and ended up in the right seat of an L-1011 after a couple years.
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Heck, Lance, it is even better than that. Back in the Viet Nam era, when all the pilots were fighting in that God Forsaken war, United Airlines was hiring Private Pilots with 150 hours and paying for their training from there.
 
Richard said:
Upgrade times to PIC are still 3-4 years at most regionals. Why suffer through abysmal pay rates and worse for that amount of time just for a shot at turbine PIC? Better to go 135. PIC is still the king. And you better be sharp on instruments.
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perhaps only if you are working the minimum and not picking up additional routes. most of my friends at the regionals are looking at about 1.5 yr upgrade.
 
Richard said:
Upgrade times to PIC are still 3-4 years at most regionals. Why suffer through abysmal pay rates and worse for that amount of time just for a shot at turbine PIC? Better to go 135. PIC is still the king. And you better be sharp on instruments.
Click to expand...



If you go fly Jungle Jets or Barbie Jets and just sit in the right seat turning the auto pilot on and off all day then, ya, it's many years (ExJet, the one everyone loves for no apparent reason, is at 3-5; Eagle is over 8).

Get on with a turbo prop opperator, though, and it's less than 2 (I'll probably be about 18 months since I came in with low time, but three guys in my indoc class already have upgrade classes scheduled for the first of next year) and we have better job security (no one can argue the efficiency of a turbo prop vs an RJ), and better quality of life (almost no overnights on shorter routes) and none of that whizz bang garbage (GPS, auto-pilot, glass cockpit) to let us get lazy in our flying.

It's all about where you go. Our pay scale may not be a nice looking on paper as ExJet, Eagle, Comair, etc, but over there you do MONTHS of reserve with no gaurantee that you'll fly more than 10 hours a month. Here...one reserve day a month, and you have to try to get less than 90 hrs a month.


No offence to anyone on here who flies for, or knows someone who flies for an RJ opperator. That's all just one man's opinion on the industry. But after all, when it comes to Turbo-props: It's better to screw your way through the air than suck and blow :).
 
tonycondon said:
perhaps only if you are working the minimum and not picking up additional routes. most of my friends at the regionals are looking at about 1.5 yr upgrade.
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My old CFI made it to left seat, in an RJ, at Skywest in 18 months. That was in Jan. of this year.

greg
 
I've jumpseated on numerous RJs over the years and up until the last year or so, I've been pleased with the quality and experience level of the crews. That has changed in the last year or so. I've seen captains doing more instructing to F/Os than they should have too. I've seen a complete lack of basic airmanship as well as poor knowledge of the CFARs. A couple of my friends who are RJ captains complained about this very thing. The trainers are relying on the line captains to "season" their miniscule time F/Os. With the short upgrade times, I've also seen captains that I don't think should be qualified in the right seat, let alone the left. It's a scary situation. The general public has no clue that when they get on an RJ painted in the colors of a major airline (Express, Connection, Eagle, Airlink etc) that the crew up front might only have 1/10th the experience that the crews of the mainline have. It's to the point where I avoid the RJs if possible. And don't even get me started about how inefficient the RJs are in regard to fuel mileage and airspace useage.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I have to call `em like i see `em.


Fly Safe,

Mitch
 
maddog52 said:
The general public has no clue that when they get on an RJ painted in the colors of a major airline (Express, Connection, Eagle, Airlink etc) that the crew up front might only have 1/10th the experience that the crews of the mainline have.
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They don't care. "Just get me there for free."
 
We used to get resumes all the time, but have not received any in a while b/c the FAA 135 minimums are 500 hrs. So everyone is going straight to the regionals instead of stopping with us for a while. So they can fly right seat in an RJ, but not fly a C-207 or C-208. I guess its a PIC thing!!
 
Mitch sort of makes the point of why professional pilot schools need to provide greater reinforcement of standard procedures and practices. I think things get too lax from the start and problems exist before they are even seen in the cockpit of an RJ.

Greg also makes a valid point. Passengers don't care. Until there's an error that cost lives. Of course, even a potential for error makes it into the media and suddenly there's a backlash for a short period unless it's a full accident and loss of life. At that point, all of air travel gets a look-see and is exploited by media.

Something I'm wondering about... how safe does an aircrew appear when a check pilot is observing from the jump seat? Then, what changes when their no longer being watched?

I'm reminded of a statement by JC Watts in quoting his grandfather that rings of similarity... "Character is doing what's right when nobody is watching."
 
The problem with 135 is that most 135 ops are in "light" planes. You need PIC heavy time to get into a main line airline/cargo job.

5000 hrs of PIC light twin time will get you the same job as 500 C-172 TT in the airlines.

Now if you want to go fractional or corp, light twin time is good.
 
Eamon said:
The problem with 135 is that most 135 ops are in "light" planes. You need PIC heavy time to get into a main line airline/cargo job.

5000 hrs of PIC light twin time will get you the same job as 500 C-172 TT in the airlines.

Now if you want to go fractional or corp, light twin time is good.
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Valid point. Experience in a twin, light, turbine or RJ, is all good. But, the main thing is experience while building time and a good safety record; the latter being more important than the time.

I think a lot of young guys who have been instructing for a year or two see the regional opportunity and they jump on it, both feet wet. A couple years ago, it was still pretty tight but opportunities were there for the one heavily in search.

I know a guy who saw a shot with a charter op flying Sabre jets. After the company spent more than fifteen grand training him, their insurance carrier upped the requirements. So, that put this guy back on the instructor role for a nearly a year while he also hauled skydivers. During that time, he also does some MEI work and adds to his skill along with just being a pilot.

Eight months later, he gets picked up by a local corporation flying a King Air, right seat. By now, he's probably left seat. Full benefits and more. And, when he's not on call for that employer he picks up contract flights for the Sabre jet charter service he didn't have enough time for.

All and all... I'd take his option any day over an RJ; left seat or first officer.

Well, unless I had an option for flying night freight in a 75? :D
 
The flip side of this is the flight-instructor shortage caused by the airline-hiring frenzy.

At mid-40s, I could still force my way into the airlines, but prefer to teach flying. I love it.

And, the combination of my love of teaching, my so-called "maturity" (my wife says I'm still like a kid!), and my lack of ambition for airlines has made me "golden" for flight schools.

So much so, I am courted nationwide, with lucrative salary offers and even bonuses that include paying for my next advanced ratings.

No kidding.

Now, I am an ex-journalist, computer programmer and aeronautical engineer by training. So, I make big bucks.

But, my heart is tugging me towards full-time teaching.

Now, at current pay rates, I can finally afford it. It is still a 32-percent pay cut, but there would be sufficient funds left over each month to go to movies, restaurants, and the like.

So, what should I do?

It's almost a no-brainer, no? Go for the heart! :eek::goofy:B)

I fully intend to do so on Monday morning. Just thought I'd give it this weekend to fully sink in.

Please PM me if you feel strongly one way or the other, as this is a major life-changing decision, and I am dead serious.

Thanks.

Ben
 
Ben: If teaching is your call in life, then, follow your heart. Your wife approves, so that's icing on the cake.

Best wishes and congratulations.

Aurea
 
alrivera said:
Ben: If teaching is your call in life, then, follow your heart. Your wife approves, so that's icing on the cake.

Best wishes and congratulations.

Aurea
Click to expand...

Thank you!

I really appreciate it.

Monday will be a glorious day.
 
PHXAvi8tor said:
The flip side of this is the flight-instructor shortage caused by the airline-hiring frenzy.
Click to expand...
Guess I should raise my rates again -- Paul Sanchez always says I'm charging too little, and my last two non-PIC clients have suggested the same when I presented my bill.
 
Ron Levy said:
Guess I should raise my rates again -- Paul Sanchez always says I'm charging too little, and my last two non-PIC clients have suggested the same when I presented my bill.
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Yeah, baby! :goofy:

If you can keep a high-paying day job (like college teaching) and have flexibility to come in to work any time you like, then this is the way to go.

Way to go, by the way.

I am aiming for the universities after a few years of teaching flying. Reverse of normal route.
 
Ben, if you're not gonna go with a life's desire your wife supports you in, you obviously don't deserve her!

So, send her my way and I'll teach full-time. I'll even drink an ice tea to ya every now and then. :)
 
Ben-
I wish you well in following your calling in life! We should all be so fortunate.
​
 
kevin47881 said:
Ben-
I wish you well in following your calling in life! We should all be so fortunate.
​
Click to expand...


Thanks. I do feel lucky.

It does seem like a no-brainer.

I think what makes it hard is showing up at my current job -- employee population 15,000 (aka "large bureaucratic enterprise of old, lazy, high-paid employees counting down the months to retirement), who constantly remind me that the high pay and benefits are far more important than the pursuit of happiness.

They are like an infection or worse.

I have to shake them off and stick to my heart and to the budget numbers that say I can afford this, and my heart is more valuable than cobweb-encrusted retirement benefits at age 70.
 
PHXAvi8tor said:
I think what makes it hard is showing up at my current job -- employee population 15,000 (aka "large bureaucratic enterprise of old, lazy, high-paid employees counting down the months to retirement), who constantly remind me that the high pay and benefits are far more important than the pursuit of happiness.
Click to expand...

And the new office will have a much better view.
 
What are the rules on how many hours per day/week/month/year a flight instructor can teach in the air? I recall there aren't limits for ground instruction, just air time, correct? How many hours per week (air/ground/simulator combined) can a good, dedicated flight instructor realistical expect to get paid for in a busy market? I guess another part of the question is how many hours per week of in-flight instructing can you realistically tolerate in primary & instrument training before you start to get fried over the long term?

Jeff
 
Jeff Oslick said:
What are the rules on how many hours per day/week/month/year a flight instructor can teach in the air? I recall there aren't limits for ground instruction, just air time, correct? How many hours per week (air/ground/simulator combined) can a good, dedicated flight instructor realistically expect to get paid for in a busy market? I guess another part of the question is how many hours per week of in-flight instructing can you realistically tolerate in primary & instrument training before you start to get fried over the long term?

Jeff
Click to expand...
Here ya go...
61.195(a) In any 24-consecutive hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hours of flight training.
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From what I've seen, the average CFI gets 24-30 flight hours per week. Some get more if the demand for them is there. Of course, that depends on how they are as an instructor.

My old instrument instructor was in demand seven days a week. He finally marked himself out on Sundays and a good bit on Saturdays so he could have time with his son.

I think expecting more than 5-6 hours actual flight training a day would be pretty dang demanding. Stretching it out with significant ground time between helps. Some schools, like those at PDK, a CFI may end up with near the max just because of transition time between practice areas and an airport located under Class B airspace. That may limit me to three flights a day; four tops. Fill in another half hour or so of ground time with each and it becomes a decent day, pay-wise.

I've seen instructor burn out. Ya gotta give up some hours (assuming that's the prime goal) sometimes just to keep yourself physically and mentally healthy. Otherwise, you become worthless to your students. Word gets around and then you're not scheduled.

It's sort of that value system that says, "Less is more."
 
PHXAvi8tor said:
And, the combination of my love of teaching, my so-called "maturity" (my wife says I'm still like a kid!), and my lack of ambition for airlines has made me "golden" for flight schools.

So much so, I am courted nationwide, with lucrative salary offers and even bonuses that include paying for my next advanced ratings.
...
Now, at current pay rates, I can finally afford it. It is still a 32-percent pay cut, but there would be sufficient funds left over each month to go to movies, restaurants, and the like.
Click to expand...

Ben,

Awesome!!! :yes: I say, do it! The world needs more good, smart, motivated full-time flight instructors.
 
24-30 flight hours a week is a lot unless you're working six days a week. I find that I need at least one hour of ground time (often more) for every flight hour for preflight training/briefing and postflight briefing/paperwork, so 24-30 flight hours a week would be close to ten hours on the job a day. And if you're working six days a week, you're cruisin' for a burnout (BTDT -- logged 220 flight hours in two months working six days a week in the summer of 1977, and was wiped out by the time grad school started in September).
 
Thanks, Tony.

There was another Ben that was thinking about the CFI gig a while back.
 
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