Aircraft Suggestions

D

DSLethal

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Nov 4, 2013
Messages
9
Display Name
Display name:
Piperpilot333
Hello everyone, I am new to this forum. I'm sure this is an all too common question. I'm looking to buy a plane, and would love some advice from all of you. I did my Private in a TB9 Tampico, Instrument in a PA29 Warrior, and my commerical in a Piper Arrow. I have 12 hours in a multi engine Piper Seneca.

I live in Michigan and the family has a condo in south Florida. I need to be able to take myself, wife, and two young boys. I feel a 4 seater aircraft may not be big enough for my needs due to having to transport my parents back and forth a few times and they are larger adults to say the least lol. I was floating the idea of a Piper Lance or Piper Cherokee 6.. I think these aircraft would allow me to fly the wife and kids along with some luggage with no problem.

Do you guys have any other suggestions?

Thanks
 
Last edited:
How about a Mooney? A bit tighter than a Cherokee 6 but it will save you a ton of $$$ on fuel alone.
 
I had a professor suggest to me to stay away from Mooney's because the company that makes Mooney went out of business and is no longer making parts for them? He suggested sticking to Cessna and Piper because if there were ever to be an issue.. the availability of parts is much higher with them.
 
If you are planning to haul your parents, I would think twice about a Mooney. The Cherokee 6 would be good, although not particularly fast. I think the Lance would be a good choice. A Bonanza would also be a great selection. Or if you could stomach a high wing, a Cessna 210. Cessnas are much easier for us more seasoned people to get in and out of :).
 
Twin Comanche. There are some smokin' deals on them in this market.

Fuel burn is like a single, with more speed and twin redundancy.

That sounds like a far distance to fly.
 
I have flown from South Florida to Oskhosh many times in a Piper Lance. Figure at least 8 hours start to stop, with a fuel stop thrown in somewhere in Kentucky or Ohio. That is a very long day of flying. I'll let others pontificate on points such as icing and thunderstorms and focus on the aircraft question.

For a family of four, a 4-seat aircraft will work only while the kids are small, and maybe not even that if mom and dad are big. There simply isn't enough useful load. We used to fly 600 miles in our Mooney routinely when the kids were in car seats, but that sucker was stuffed to the gills. Then when kid 3 came along we went to the Lance. Nice cabin, and baggage in the front and back sure helped balance the cg.

Even so, four adults and two kids in a Lance for all day ... not exactly my idea of a pleasant trip. Plus, with that you may be constrained on what you could carry with you.

Can you swing a King Air?
 
The lance is a great heavy hauler ,not the fastest out there but a comfy ride for your mission.
 
DSLethal said:
I had a professor suggest to me to stay away from Mooney's because the company that makes Mooney went out of business and is no longer making parts for them?
Click to expand...

Oh, pish posh... Someone needs to keep up with the news more... plus even during the long hibernation, I don't recall any of my Mooney friends wailing about lack of parts or factory support.

Lots of very nice M20J's and better on the market that would do the proposed trip just fine and serve you well for the shorter trips.


And our fun group need another bit of information to help spend your money... how much money you got to spend on this?? (helps if you share both the acquisition AND the upkeep/operation budgets)
 
I would be remiss in my duties if I did not say; "At least look at the RV-10". 200MPH take a lot of time off the trip. ;)

4 full size adults, 60 gallons of fuel, 100 pounds of baggage. :dunno:

Same money by burning car gas, and doing your own maintenance.

Change batteries for $170 and panels to what ever you want. :dunno:
 
Last edited:
I would say a Boeing BBJ or a G650

you betcha...that Six or PA32 will get it Done all day long (and with actual comfort)...another "fun' idea is to take a liking to that Seneca if you don't like money that much...seriously the Piper single idea is a good one..
 
Last edited:
Piper Navajo.. ya thats just going to come in over my budget by a little LOL That Navajo would be very nice. I would love to keep this between 60,000 and 100,000.. I would really like to keep this under 100k. There are a ton of Cherokee 6's out there.. and a hand full of Lance's. That C 210 looked very nice but they seem to be quite expensive. I did just read online that Mooney will be back building planes again in 2014, my problem is taking 4 full size adults in that plane.. I'm not familiar with how large it is inside.

I love the idea of the speed of the Mooney.. but taking 4 full size adults with any luggage can be an issue..

Thanks so much for the input.
 
That Six looks like a sound value, if it holds up to a pre-buy.

---

For your mission, a Mooney will not do. Great plane, but four butts in seats and baggage and fuel is likely a no-go. But, as for your friend's assertion that Mooney was gone, never entirely true; they suspended aircraft production, and have been severely restricted in size and scope, but the doors were still open, and (most) parts still available.

Word is, now, that they are being acquired and will restart production. One can hope!
 
Something to remember as you kick tires.... Just how often are you going to be doing this "airplane runneth over" mission?

Many new pilots get hung up on "I need to buy something for those twice to four to six times a year flights" to the detriment of the bank account (purchase plus usage plus mx costs), especially when 80-90% of their flying is by themselves and local 100-150nm fun flying hops. A sage piece of advice given to me early on was to buy-in to something that would cover 90% of your missions, then find the rentable aircraft for the other 10%. (But I got fortunate to find 16-member equity club that has both as part of their arrangement).

for $60k-$100k, lots of really nice C182's exist. As folks say, they don't lead the pack at any one particular thing, but they do very, very well at all of them. Good payload, range, interior comfort, decent speed. That would be a good "90%" choice for you.
 
Cessna Turbo 206. Will haul anything you can stuff in it and if you don't mind sucking O2 will cruise right along in the teens. Don
 
Ken Ibold said:
I have flown from South Florida to Oskhosh many times in a Piper Lance. Figure at least 8 hours start to stop, with a fuel stop thrown in somewhere in Kentucky or Ohio. That is a very long day of flying. I'll let others pontificate on points such as icing and thunderstorms and focus on the aircraft question.

For a family of four, a 4-seat aircraft will work only while the kids are small, and maybe not even that if mom and dad are big. There simply isn't enough useful load. We used to fly 600 miles in our Mooney routinely when the kids were in car seats, but that sucker was stuffed to the gills. Then when kid 3 came along we went to the Lance. Nice cabin, and baggage in the front and back sure helped balance the cg.

Even so, four adults and two kids in a Lance for all day ... not exactly my idea of a pleasant trip. Plus, with that you may be constrained on what you could carry with you.

Can you swing a King Air?
Click to expand...

exactly. a mooney may work well now, but kids (especially boys) will cause your family to outgrow a mooney pretty quick.

a 182 may get you by, but a 6 seat piper (fixed or retract) would be a great option.
 
DSLethal said:
I'm looking to buy a plane, and would love some advice from all of you. I did my Private in a TB9 Tampico, Instrument in a PA29 Warrior, and my commerical in a Piper Arrow. I have 12 hours in a multi engine Piper Seneca.

I live in Michigan and the family has a condo in south Florida. I need to be able to take myself, wife, and two young boys. I feel a 4 seater aircraft may not be big enough for my needs due to having to transport my parents back and forth a few times and they are larger adults to say the least lol. I was floating the idea of a Piper Lance or Piper Cherokee 6..
Click to expand...

I had a Piper Cherokee 6 also and live in Michigan. Nice hauler and I think you'll be much happier with it. Get the forward seating however as it gives you alot more options as the seats are easily removed without tools.

However, being I live in Michigan, and need to fly in the winter, I now have a booted Aztec. I've been pleasantly surprised by the costs. Not only was it less then half the cost of the PA32 ($33,000 vs. $70,000), the fuel burn is only about 10-20% more then the PA32 for similar speeds. 2 years in both my annuals have been cheaper then the PA32 but I attribute that to a better initial airframe condition (my aztec was on part 135). I myself was looking for a Seneca but found the Aztec had better visibility, could haul more and was quite a bit better in pricing. It also can land/takeoff shorter then a PA32.

The negatives are I miss the back door on the PA32 but my passengers tell me once they are in the Aztec they are more comfortable then the PA32. The Aztec, even the back seats, sit up taller then the PA32 and there is more headroom as well. This might make a difference in a flight to Florida. I removed one of the middle seats (5 seats now) and it's quite roomy.

I'm only mentioning this as you appear to be ME rated and I presume you have an IFR rating.

P.S.

AggieMike88 said:
Something to remember as you kick tires.... Just how often are you going to be doing this "airplane runneth over" mission?

Many new pilots get hung up on "I need to buy something for those twice to four to six times a year flights" to the detriment of the bank account (purchase plus usage plus mx costs), especially when 80-90% of their flying is by themselves and local 100-150nm fun flying hops. A sage piece of advice given to me early on was to buy-in to something that would cover 90% of your missions, then find the rentable aircraft for the other 10%.
Click to expand...

This is good advice if you can find what you need for rent. If I could have found PA32 for rent... I'd have just owned a kitfox or some other used experimental. But as it is... we just have 150/172's for rent in deplorable shape. The twin is a bit different in that I'm a low time ME pilot and building proficiency is a bit more important to me even if 50% of my flights are solo.
 
Last edited:
Jeff thank you very much for your input. What part of Michigan are you in? If you are close to Detroit Metro I'd love to pick your brain for more info. I live in Rochester Hills. I do have my instrument rating but did not finish the multi engine training. Though I have no problem going and finishing it. I will go look up some information on the aztec now.
 
DSLethal said:
Jeff thank you very much for your input. What part of Michigan are you in? If you are close to Detroit Metro I'd love to pick your brain for more info. I live in Rochester Hills. I do have my instrument rating but did not finish the multi engine training. Though I have no problem going and finishing it. I will go look up some information on the aztec now.
Click to expand...

I've recently moved to Hillsdale (KJYM) from Holland (KBIV).

I did my multi here coming in with 0 hours: http://www.traverseair.com/multi.php

and had it 2 days later. My first year insurance on the aztec (2012) was $2200 with $40K hull ( 10 hr M/E pilot with IFR rating). Last year it dropped to $1700 a year for the same coverage's. I also budget for reoccurring training every year.

It took me about a year to find a twin I liked... There is a incredible amount of overpriced junk on the market... even more so in the twin market. I started out with the 310, Baron 58 and Seneca. I made offers on a Baron 55 and 4 different Aztec's. The Baron 55 turned me down, 2 of the Aztec's had broker issues before we got too far out of the gate, 1 failed the prebuy and the last one I bought (private seller). The Aztec and Seneca had lower insurance rates then the Baron 58 or 310, and also lower dual requirements.

The best piece of advice I can give you as a buyer is be patient, deal in cash, be ready to act and show the sellers you have the money (i.e. show them a bank statement or if financing and approval letter). They get an incredible amount of tire kickers but the smart seller will recognize a serious buyer. The one I bought initially turned my offer down (I made an over the phone offer 3 days after he listed it) but I got a call from him 3 weeks later accepting it after having had a go with the dreamers. He had a few liens to clear but the transaction was painless. He flew the plane to my mechanic for the pre-buy. Used the AOPA title/escrow service.

Also understand the prices listed in most of the for sale ad's in the trades are various forms of fiction, since they don't reflect selling price. Every plane is different but I had good luck with Vref myself. A basic twin is going to sell for the value of the engines. If you are doing your homework, many seller's are going to consider your offer's "insulting" so I tend to let them try and explain why they are asking such a premium over Vref. I also keep a spreadsheet with notes, in particular the annual date and I check back from time to time. Sometimes they give up and if you call them a month or 2 before the annual is due they might not be as stubborn. But the thing I value most is good airframe/engine condition.

Good luck
 
I'm near Grand Rapids and have a Comanche for sale.

http://webpages.charter.net/edfred/comanche/

I've done Grand Rapids --> Sarasota non stop, but in the future I'd split it in half. It's got the useful load ad the speed. And it's under your budget.
 
How much instrument time do you have? In all types of weather? How often do you fly instruments? Do you feel comfortable doing this? Important questions if you intend to fly the brood long distances. AS important as what type aircraft you select. It's possible you may want to fly on the airlines while you build solid time on instruments. If you check the faa monthly accident reports, which include high time ATR rated pilots, you'll see what I mean. Weather brings a lot of these types to tragic ends. Good luck.
 
I did my training at ERAU for my Private, and Beaver Aviation for my instrument and commercial. All of which were 141 schools.. I have 300 plus hours of flying.. I'd say close to 30 hours in actual IFR. I am comfortable flying in IFR conditions.. can't say I'm a fan of icing conditions.. think its safe to say none of us like ice. I enjoy flying ILS and VOR approaches. Have done many of them in actual IFR conditions.
 
I was going to question a lot of the prices I'm seeing on such old aircraft.. I'm glad you said it. I didn't want to sound disrespectful, but I'm in shock at some the prices these people are asking for their planes. It is the same as what is happening in the boating industry here in Michigan too.. million boats for sale because people can no longer afford to run them, but they are all asking for a ton of money.. hence they never sell their boats.. These planes from the 70's.. we are talking 40 years old? Other than newer avionics and engines.. seriously now, how can some of these people be asking for so much for their planes. I have been looking at planes now for about 9 months.. and most of them are not moving at all, most are not selling.
 
DSLethal said:
I was going to question a lot of the prices I'm seeing on such old aircraft.. I'm glad you said it. I didn't want to sound disrespectful, but I'm in shock at some the prices these people are asking for their planes. It is the same as what is happening in the boating industry here in Michigan too.. million boats for sale because people can no longer afford to run them, but they are all asking for a ton of money.. hence they never sell their boats.. These planes from the 70's.. we are talking 40 years old? Other than newer avionics and engines.. seriously now, how can some of these people be asking for so much for their planes. I have been looking at planes now for about 9 months.. and most of them are not moving at all, most are not selling.
Click to expand...

What are you expecting to pay? Hemi Cudas are 40+ years old too. I'm not saying that any of the planes are worth a Hemi Cuda, but what would you say my plane is worth?
 
DSLethal said:
I was going to question a lot of the prices I'm seeing on such old aircraft.. I'm glad you said it. I didn't want to sound disrespectful, but I'm in shock at some the prices these people are asking for their planes. It is the same as what is happening in the boating industry here in Michigan too.. million boats for sale because people can no longer afford to run them, but they are all asking for a ton of money.. hence they never sell their boats.. These planes from the 70's.. we are talking 40 years old? Other than newer avionics and engines.. seriously now, how can some of these people be asking for so much for their planes. I have been looking at planes now for about 9 months.. and most of them are not moving at all, most are not selling.
Click to expand...

Buy a new plane, see how much that costs you. In order to buy a comparable recent vintages plane to mine, you would be spending over a million dollars.
 
DSLethal said:
I was going to question a lot of the prices I'm seeing on such old aircraft.. I'm glad you said it. I didn't want to sound disrespectful, but I'm in shock at some the prices these people are asking for their planes. It is the same as what is happening in the boating industry here in Michigan too.. million boats for sale because people can no longer afford to run them, but they are all asking for a ton of money.. hence they never sell their boats.. These planes from the 70's.. we are talking 40 years old? Other than newer avionics and engines.. seriously now, how can some of these people be asking for so much for their planes. I have been looking at planes now for about 9 months.. and most of them are not moving at all, most are not selling.
Click to expand...

They see other seller's with these asking prices and use those to price their plane. Of course, the asking prices they see the most are the exact planes that aren't selling.

Don't be shy. I'd first let the seller know you are a qualified buyer... you know what you want... you have the money in place. Ask them to explain why their price is so much above Vref. Let them know someday you'll need to sell the airplane and may be getting the same question and can't base your answer on what you paid for the airplane or other's asking prices (which seems to be the two most common responses I got).

I'd also avoid low/0 SMOH aircraft like the plague. The first question is why would someone be selling a 0 smoh aircraft? Do you really want to buy an engine where the seller was asking the rebuilding to cut every cost to the bone? 0 smoh is as much a sucker trap as is "Fresh annual"... maybe even worse.

Infant mortality is highest with rebuild for the first few hundred hours. Why take that risk? I prefer to buy mid to high time engines... because then I know what I am buying.
 
Jeff K said:
They see other seller's with these asking prices and use those to price their plane. Of course, the asking prices they see the most are the exact planes that aren't selling.

Don't be shy. I'd first let the seller know you are a qualified buyer... you know what you want... you have the money in place. Ask them to explain why their price is so much above Vref. Let them know someday you'll need to sell the airplane and may be getting the same question and can't base your answer on what you paid for the airplane or other's asking prices (which seems to be the two most common responses I got).

I'd also avoid low/0 SMOH aircraft like the plague. The first question is why would someone be selling a 0 smoh aircraft? Do you really want to buy an engine where the seller was asking the rebuilding to cut every cost to the bone? 0 smoh is as much a sucker trap as is "Fresh annual"... maybe even worse.

Infant mortality is highest with rebuild for the first few hundred hours. Why take that risk? I prefer to buy mid to high time engines... because then I know what I am buying.
Click to expand...


How about a prospective buyer explaining why an offer is so far below Vref?
 
Henning said:
How about a prospective buyer explaining why an offer is so far below Vref?
Click to expand...

Because I have the money in my pocket and that is my offer although if you are nice I might explain the fact you aren't flying your plane or the missing logs was a factor. (I don't know your situation but those two explanations I once gave)

That is the thing that always perplexed me about seller's who got upset with a low offer. How hard is it to say no thank you and/or counter? Yet a percentage of them made it personal. Always remember you are buying a piece of metal that can't love you. When I buy houses and planes I always like to have a few of them in play, so if someone digs in I can move onto the other property.

As a serious buyer you have to have a thick skin... alot of seller's are under stress. Selling the airplane means the end of a part of their life or could be a distress sale (divorce etc).
 
Jeff K said:
Because I have the money in my pocket and that is my offer although if you are nice I might explain the fact you aren't flying your plane or the missing logs was a factor. (I don't know your situation but those two explanations I once gave)

That is the thing that always perplexed me about seller's who got upset with a low offer. How hard is it to say no thank you and/or counter? Yet a percentage of them made it personal. Always remember you are buying a piece of metal that can't love you. When I buy houses and planes I always like to have a few of them in play, so if someone digs in I can move onto the other property.

As a serious buyer you have to have a thick skin... alot of seller's are under stress. Selling the airplane means the end of a part of their life or could be a distress sale (divorce etc).
Click to expand...

I've got every log to day one, new Top Props, 150SFRM on one, 350SMOH on the other, 3300TTAF, G-500/430 panel, JPI 720 w/FF, no corrosion, on an always hangared plane. Now tell me why I should accept an offer below 50% of Vref or the NAAA evaluator?
 
Henning said:
I've got every log to day one, new Top Props, 150SFRM on one, 350SMOH on the other, 3300TTAF, G-500/430 panel, JPI 720 w/FF, no corrosion, on an always hangared plane. Now tell me why I should accept an offer below 50% of Vref or the NAAA evaluator?
Click to expand...

If you want to sell it maybe? :hairraise:

As I recall, last I saw you about 2 years ago on the Red Board you wanted $200,000 for your 53 year old Cessna 310. I'm not sure if that is still where you are at, and I know why you priced it there, but I think the market is telling you something if it's still for sale.

To be blunt, your $200,000 310 is like someone taking a 50 year old Cessna 150 and adding two GTN-650's to the panel. You may have Cessna 150 that you have $52,000 in, but the market isn't looking for $52,000 Cessna 150's.
 
Last edited:
Jeff K said:
If you want to sell it maybe? :hairraise:

As I recall, last I saw you about 2 years ago on the Red Board you wanted $200,000 for your 53 year old Cessna 310. I'm not sure if that still where you are at, and I know why you priced it there, but I think the market is telling you something if it's still for sale.

To be blunt, your $200,000 310 is like someone taking a 50 year old Cessna 150 and adding two GTN-650's to the panel. You may have Cessna 150 that you have $52,000 in, but the market isn't looking for $52,000 Cessna 150's.
Click to expand...

That was a rebuttal to offers of $40k, I was never asking that, the highest I was asking was $85k.
 
Henning said:
That was a rebuttal to offers of $40k, I was never asking that, the highest I was asking was $85k.
Click to expand...

No... I distinctly remember you actually running a ad for $200,000. It was all the talk of the red board. I think I even saw it.

While it might feel good to you to come back with a counter offer 4 times higher then the mean of the average asking prices I'm seeing right now for 1960 310's, it would tell me as a buyer you aren't a serious seller.

$40,000 is a serious offer on your typical 1960 310. I agree it isn't a (very) serious offer on your example. If I was a seller of your plane, I would have pointed out why yours is worth more and come back with something under $85K as the counter.

BTW, you might try and advertise the airplane in the trades. It shows really well. I'd also recommend flying the airplane IFR once in a while so flightaware gets updated. The last flight it shows is July 31, 2011, and for me as potential buyer I'm immediately thinking hanger queen.
 
Jeff K said:
No... I distinctly remember you actually running a ad for $200,000. It was all the talk of the red board. I think I even saw it.

While it might feel good to you to come back with a counter offer 4 times higher then the mean of the average asking prices I'm seeing right now for 1960 310's, it would tell me as a buyer you aren't a serious seller.

$40,000 is a serious offer on your typical 1960 310. I agree it isn't a (very) serious offer on your example. If I was a seller of your plane, I would have pointed out why yours is worth more and come back with something under $85K as the counter.

BTW, you might try and advertise the airplane in the trades. It shows really well. I'd also recommend flying the airplane IFR once in a while so flightaware gets updated. The last flight it shows is July 31, 2011, and for me as potential buyer I'm immediately thinking hanger queen.
Click to expand...

Ok, you remember what I priced my plane at better than I do...:rolleyes2:
 
Henning said:
Ok, you remember what I priced my plane at better than I do...:rolleyes2:
Click to expand...

Actually I didn't. I was wrong. You actually ran an ad asking $250,000 for it. :goofy:


-------------

From AOPA red board http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=77136&highlight=henning+310+sale

Re: $250K for a 310? 10/19/2011

super_rebel131 said:
http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/CESSNA-310/1960-CESSNA-310/1205807.htm?

Typo or has Henning "lost it"!?
Click to expand...

Jeff King said:
This a joke someone is playing, correct?
Click to expand...

Henning said:
No joke, if someone wants to give me $250k for it they can have it, otherwise they can pi$$ off.
Click to expand...

Edit: Corrected Red Board posting date to 2011
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top