Aircraft rental checkou

[midlifeflyer]

That cfi is a jerk and just looking to pad his paycheck. Sadly that does happen at other places. Good on you for trying to call him on it. If it really bothers you I’d ping the owner.

I'm, a believer in Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

 

[dmspilot]

I think he was questioning where the regs say that ground training is not ground training unless it is intended to be used for a certificate rating, privilege or currency.

It's a bit circuitous but I think the argument can be made.

61.1:
Ground training means that training, other than flight training, received from an authorized instructor.

61.1:
Authorized instructor means -

(i) A person who holds a ground instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with § 61.217, when conducting ground training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her ground instructor certificate;

(ii) A person who holds a flight instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with § 61.197, when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate; or

(iii) A person authorized by the Administrator to provide ground training or flight training under part 61, 121, 135, or 142 of this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with that authority."​

61.193:
A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is authorized within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate and ratings to train and issue endorsements that are required for:

(1) A student pilot certificate;
(2) A pilot certificate;
(3) A flight instructor certificate;
(4) A ground instructor certificate;
(5) An aircraft rating;
(6) An instrument rating;
(7) A flight review, operating privilege, or recency of experience requirement of this part;
(8) A practical test; and
(9) A knowledge test.​

"Ground training" is training given an authorized instructor. An authorized instructor is someone that gives training toward the certificates, ratings, tests, operating privileges, or flight review required by Part 61. A person giving an aircraft rental checkout could be considered to be merely an observer and not an authorized instructor. Finally, a line item of "ground instruction" on an invoice does not necessarily have to mean 61.1 ground instruction. The FAA is not like a health insurance claims adjuster that has to make sure services are coded with approved codes.

 

[midlifeflyer]

A person giving an aircraft rental checkout could be considered to be merely an observer and not an authorized instructor

I would agree with that part - that's basically the thrust of the Blue Line interpretation. I guess it's conceivable that the checkout involves logging nothing (official) at all except PIC time for the customer. And it does not have to be a CFI. OTOH, Blue Line ultimately begs the question whether something is indeed training when it is given by an authorized instructor.

Interesting pin dance anyway.

 

[sarangan]

I'm not sure that answers his question. I think he was questioning where the regs say that ground training is not ground training unless it is intended to be used for a certificate rating, privilege or currency.

You'd probably do better suggesting out that under 61.51, nothing needs to be logged at all unless for those purposes, so why should flight or ground be any different. Just don't log anything. Or you might point out that the Chief Counsel's office said within the past few years (I think with tongue firmly in cheek) that a checkout doesn't necessarily have to be training. Of course, if you refer to that, then you unfortunately wind up with, "A checkout is considered flight instruction if flight training is given during the checkout," which seems to be contrary to your view.

You are correct, 61.51 makes the point more directly. 61.189 states that an instructor must log the training given, which is what I was originally responding to. My point was that 61.189 does not apply if the training is not being given towards a certificate or rating. 61.1 says everything in part 61 is about certificates or ratings. In other words, even if you received training during a checkout, but the instructor did not provide that training towards a certificate or rating, then there is no need to log it. At least that's the way I read it.

 

[Jake Simpson]

Quick update for everyone: CFI didn't budge, even after conversation with owner. Owner felt it was wrong and took the amount the CFI charged me for that ground and removed it from my next bill from renting with that club. The owner was very kind for doing that and I am really appreciative of him for that. If you ever find yourself in Tucson/Marana AZ, check out Avra Valley Flyers. They have the best management in the area and their prices are awesome. They have a 172N with CS Prop/O360 STC, GNS 530 and a Cardinal for $145/hr wet.

 

[Oldmanb777]

I haven't instructed in years ( and don't intend to). The people who I know that instruct charge their hourly rate, based on the time they spend with you. Most have a minimum they want, just to drive to the airport. So if you take up an hour of their time, they want an hour of pay. you take up 2 hrs of their time they are entitled to 2 hrs of pay. Sometimes with a minimum number of hours just for showing up. Nobody wants to drive to work for 10 minutes of pay. I have done that. Just like the guy who wanted me to come to the airport to charge up the strut that he said was flat. It was low, but not flat, and suggested he would buy me a hamburger at some later date. ( constant problem in aviation when your an IA) Or the people next door to one of my rentals that wanted me to sweat in a new hose bib, after they left the hose hooked up and it froze. They didn't feel they should compensate me for my time or knowledge. I understand you may have been over charged, and maybe not fairly, sounds like it. that said, I have been on the other side of this too many times.

 

[Jake Simpson]

I haven't instructed in years ( and don't intend to). The people who I know that instruct charge their hourly rate, based on the time they spend with you. Most have a minimum they want, just to drive to the airport. So if you take up an hour of their time, they want an hour of pay. you take up 2 hrs of their time they are entitled to 2 hrs of pay. Sometimes with a minimum number of hours just for showing up. Nobody wants to drive to work for 10 minutes of pay. I have done that. Just like the guy who wanted me to come to the airport to charge up the strut that he said was flat. It was low, but not flat, and suggested he would buy me a hamburger at some later date. ( constant problem in aviation when your an IA) Or the people next door to one of my rentals that wanted me to sweat in a new hose bib, after they left the hose hooked up and it froze. They didn't feel they should compensate me for my time or knowledge. I understand you may have been over charged, and maybe not fairly, sounds like it. that said, I have been on the other side of this too many times.

I had actually already paid him for one hour of flight instruction. He additionally charged me an hour of ground that we did not do.

 

[bflynn]

Two points

1) if you got charged for an hour of ground, go back to him and complain that he didn't sign off a flight review.
2) When you ding the plane and the insurance company wants to know if you did an hour ground and an hour flight for the checkout, don't point them at this thread.

 

[RussR]

I would agree with that part - that's basically the thrust of the Blue Line interpretation. I guess it's conceivable that the checkout involves logging nothing (official) at all except PIC time for the customer. And it does not have to be a CFI.

If the checkout person is not a CFI, then (I think obviously) no instruction is being provided. Easy.

But if the checkout person is a CFI, I think the cases where _no_ instruction is provided have to be vanishingly small. Yes it could happen where the pilot is getting checked out in an airplane they're very experienced in, but even then:

CFI: Okay, let's level off at 3500.
Pilot: What power setting do you usually like to cruise at?
CFI: Sorry, I can't tell you that, we don't have a current 100-hour inspection so I can't provide training.

 

[MauleSkinner]

1) if you got charged for an hour of ground, go back to him and complain that he didn't sign off a flight review.

Weakening the argument, as “an hour of ground” isn’t necessarily going to qualify (and for a checkout, very likely didn’t.)

 

[Clip4]

Quick update for everyone: CFI didn't budge, even after conversation with owner. Owner felt it was wrong and took the amount the CFI charged me for that ground and removed it from my next bill from renting with that club. The owner was very kind for doing that and I am really appreciative of him for that. If you ever find yourself in Tucson/Marana AZ, check out Avra Valley Flyers. They have the best management in the area and their prices are awesome. They have a 172N with CS Prop/O360 STC, GNS 530 and a Cardinal for $145/hr wet.

I wonder after agreeing to give you the credit if the owner had another private discussion with the CFI.