Aircraft rental checkou

Jake Simpson

Jake Simpson

Filing Flight Plan
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Oct 22, 2021
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cvgaviation
Hello all,

I recently did a checkout in a 172. The flight lasted 1.1 total. My preflight brief with the CFI was no more than five minutes as he had just hopped out of another plane and I had already preflighted. After we landed we did a postflight briefing that also lasted roughly five minutes and that was that. He charged me 1 hour ground along with the 1.1 hour hobbs and 1 hour of flight instruction. We really didn't even do ANY ground... He says that is just the industry standard and every flight school will do that. I've been checked out at over ten flight schools and not one of them has charged for more ground than we actually did, even when I got my high performance in a 300hp 182. This is utterly ridiculous as we did less than ten minutes ground and now I'm $60+ down the hole. Any thoughts?
 
He’s a jerk and that’s terrible that the school allows it.
 
Run it by whoever runs the school, see what they say.
 
I recently visited a flight school and was inquiring about their aircraft and instructor rates. I've been told that if you've completed the Wings course for the flight review that the ground portion is not required but they still were looking for $65.00 for an hour of ground instruction and then anther $65.00 for an hour in the air. The plane was $149.00 per hour and they assign the flight instructor. My concern with that was that I know a few students there and the one instructor they are always pushing people to use is not highly thought of. Not because he's inept but because he doesn't possess a beautiful disposition at all.

One of the students at that particular school went and talked to the owner of the flight school and got some relief with his concerns. That's about the only recourse available other than taking your business elsewhere.
 
If you had 10 minutes of ground and they charged you for 2 hours of ground. Protest it and if they won't give you either a refund or the 2 hours of ground. Find another flight school!
 
No, charging for ground time instruction that was not given for a simple checkout is not the industry standard.

3 options,

Discuss with management, ask for refund.
Contest the charge if you paid by credit card.
If the CFI logged 1 hour of ground in your logbook or didn’t log any ground instruction in you logbook, you could make a complaint to the FAA for a CFI Part 61 violation for a false statement or failure to log instruction.
 
Clip4 said:
No, charging for ground time instruction that was not given for a simple checkout is not the industry standard.

3 options,

Discuss with management, ask for refund.
Contest the charge if you paid by credit card.
If the CFI logged 1 hour of ground in your logbook or didn’t log any ground instruction in you logbook, you could make a complaint to the FAA for a CFI Part 61 violation for a false statement or failure to log instruction.
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Clip, I appreciate the help. No ground time logged in my logbook from him. He wrote it up too and signed for it. Email has been sent to owner and if I cannot get refunded I may even take it up with the FSDO. I hate to be that guy but I know I'm being scammed and I know for a fact that he's doing it to others.
 
Jake Simpson said:
Clip, I appreciate the help. No ground time logged in my logbook from him. He wrote it up too and signed for it. Email has been sent to owner and if I cannot get refunded I may even take it up with the FSDO. I hate to be that guy but I know I'm being scammed and I know for a fact that he's doing it to others.
Click to expand...

This is definitely not industry standard. If there is a written policy on a minimum 1 hour ground, please ask them to show it to you.
 
I wouldn’t go to the Faa. Lot of hassle with low likelihood of anyone caring. Assuming they have a cc on file, dispute the charge. If you paid another way, why did you pay for something you didn’t agree you owed?

no matter what you do beyond a civil conversation with the owner, you’re out the whole amount since you probably won’t be renting there anyway.
 
I wonder what industry he was referring to. Human trafficking?
.
If they insist on charging 1.0 ground they better provide that to me.
 
I wouldn’t take it up with the FSDO. If he didn’t do ground instruction, there is nothing to put in your logbook. Well, there was the 5 minutes here and there, but…

I’d stick to dealing with the flight school. Get your money back or get a credit towards rental time. Then burn it off and go elsewhere or stay away from the CFI that is taking advantage of you.
 
If he has an invoice that says 1 hour of ground instruction, the regulation requires the CFI log instruction given. If the CFI logged an a hour and didn’t give it, it’s falsification.
 
Some CFIs charge for the whole block of time they were booked regardless if they actually did instruction the whole time. There were a few guys that did that at my flight school. I always just charged the flight plus brief and debrief. Rarely was more than 0.3 of ground.
 
jordane93 said:
Some CFIs charge for the whole block of time they were booked regardless if they actually did instruction the whole time.
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That is a reasonable policy however it doesn't sound like OP's instructor was willing to provide or even available for instruction during that time, as "he had just hopped out of another plane", thus presumably charging two customers at once and only providing instruction to one of them.
 
jordane93 said:
Some CFIs charge for the whole block of time they were booked regardless if they actually did instruction the whole time. There were a few guys that did that at my flight school. I always just charged the flight plus brief and debrief. Rarely was more than 0.3 of ground.
Click to expand...

That’s because you’re a good person who loves aviation. It’s not “just a job” to you. :)
 
Clip4 said:
If he has an invoice that says 1 hour of ground instruction, the regulation requires the CFI log instruction given. If the CFI logged an a hour and didn’t give it, it’s falsification.
Click to expand...

There is no regulation to log every instruction, but certainly there is a moral obligation to provide services for which you are paid. There are plenty of businesses whose primary objective is to separate you from your wallet, and this specific CFI or flight school certainly seems to be one of them.
 
If you show up late and then do a half hour preflight, I can see the instructor charging for his wasted time, but the OP said he was ready and waiting on him and then got a minimal debrief. That’s theft to me.
 
sarangan said:
There is no regulation to log every instruction, but certainly there is a moral obligation to provide services for which you are paid. There are plenty of businesses whose primary objective is to separate you from your wallet, and this specific CFI or flight school certainly seems to be one of them.
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Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

Ground training means that training, other than flight training, received from an authorized instructor.



§ 61.189 Flight instructor records.
(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.
 
Clip4 said:
Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

Ground training means that training, other than flight training, received from an authorized instructor.



§ 61.189 Flight instructor records.
(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.
Click to expand...

The FAA does not regulate the manner in which a business bills its customers, so your argument is irrelevant.
 
dmspilot said:
The FAA does not regulate the manner in which a business bills its customers, so your argument is irrelevant.
Click to expand...


You are probably correct, a FAA inspector would never look at billing records to substantiate a claim of false logbook entries or failure to log training.
 
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Clip4 said:
You are probably correct, a FAA inspector would never look at billing records to substantiate a claim of false logbook entries or failure to log training.
Click to expand...

The training did not occur, thus it was not logged. There is no FAA violation, failure to log, or false logbook entry, in OP's scenario. Again, your argument is irrelevant.
 
dmspilot said:
The training did not occur, thus it was not logged. There is no FAA violation, failure to log, or false logbook entry, in OP's scenario. Again, your argument is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

if the OP complains to the FSDO about a logging issue there will be an investigation.
 
There is no logging issue if no instruction was given. It’s a billing issue.
 
Clip4 said:
Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

Ground training means that training, other than flight training, received from an authorized instructor.



§ 61.189 Flight instructor records.
(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.
Click to expand...


Good point, but this applies only if the pilot was training towards a certificate or rating issued under part 61. A checkout is not training towards a certificate, and it does not even have to be given by an instructor. An instructor would need to know what certificate or rating that training time is going to count for before signing the logbook.
 
I don't see any reason not to talk to the FSDO. I'm not one to suggest randomly complaining about minor rule violations, and I'm not sure there is even any FAA rule involved, but it does sound like the rental outfit may be ripping off customers. It's maybe a minor incident, but you could reach out to the local AG's office, too. Neither may be too concerned about any single incident, but dishonest people, in my experience, are rarely all that selective about what they're dishonest about. So if they already have their eye on that outfit, it could be the reason to send someone out to see what else they might find.

Or in shorter form - it's not in bad form to toss a cheat under the bus.
 
Albany Tom said:
I don't see any reason not to talk to the FSDO.
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There is no rule violation. The FBO/CFI apparently has minimum charges for billing purposes. The FAA is not responsible for deciding what amount of money is fair or unfair for a business to charge a customer.
 
So maybe they wouldn't do anything. Still seems harmless.
 
If that is industry standard, ask him to sign off on your BFR. If he says you didn't do an hour of ground, then ask him why your billed for it.
 
sarangan said:
Good point, but this applies only if the pilot was training towards a certificate or rating issued under part 61. A checkout is not training towards a certificate, and it does not even have to be given by an instructor. An instructor would need to know what certificate or rating that training time is going to count for before signing the logbook.
Click to expand...

Really, where in the regs can I read this?
 
dmspilot said:
There is no rule violation. The FBO/CFI apparently has minimum charges for billing purposes. The FAA is not responsible for deciding what amount of money is fair or unfair for a business to charge a customer.
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I would agree the CFI has this policy, I doubt the FBO in on board.
 
Clip4 said:
I would agree the CFI has this policy, I doubt the FBO in on board.
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My experience is that FBOs constantly complain about instructors not charging enough ground time, and want them to charge all scheduled time even if it is not used, and most instructors feel guilty doing so.
 
dmspilot said:
My experience is that FBOs constantly complain about instructors not charging enough ground time, and want them to charge all scheduled time even if it is not used, and most instructors feel guilty doing so.
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Never experienced that one.
 
I recently checked out a pilot in our Grumman Traveler. He flies freight in a Beech 1900 & has a lot of dual time given. We spent 30 minutes reviewing the quirks of the Traveler & I explained how it differed from a 172 since this pilot instructed in them. We went out & did some slow flight & stalls, came back & did some tough & go's and I told him he was good to go. I charged him .7 of an hour total. My time & airplane rental. Light aircraft don't differ all that much.
 
Clip4 said:
Really, where in the regs can I read this?
Click to expand...


§ 61.1 Applicability and definitions.
(a) Except as provided in part 107 of this chapter, this part prescribes:

(1) The requirements for issuing pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor certificates and ratings; the conditions under which those certificates and ratings are necessary; and the privileges and limitations of those certificates and ratings.

(2) The requirements for issuing pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor authorizations; the conditions under which those authorizations are necessary; and the privileges and limitations of those authorizations.

(3) The requirements for issuing pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor certificates and ratings for persons who have taken courses approved by the Administrator under other parts of this chapter.
 
This was an initial checkout. Sounds like maybe there’s an insurance and/or business requirement to document at least one hour of flight and ground time for such a checkout - like a Flight Review. Maybe the guy covered all the local orientation, emergency procedures, etc. in the air but felt obligated to “document compliance” by billing for it - or at least not document NON-compliance via the billing.

I for one know an hour of ground and an hour of flying can feel like a long time for Flight Reviews sometimes.

Just a thought…
 
That cfi is a jerk and just looking to pad his paycheck. Sadly that does happen at other places. Good on you for trying to call him on it. If it really bothers you I’d ping the owner.
 
sarangan said:
§ 61.1 Applicability and definitions.
(a) Except as provided in part 107 of this chapter, this part prescribes:

(1) The requirements for issuing pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor certificates and ratings; the conditions under which those certificates and ratings are necessary; and the privileges and limitations of those certificates and ratings.

(2) The requirements for issuing pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor authorizations; the conditions under which those authorizations are necessary; and the privileges and limitations of those authorizations.

(3) The requirements for issuing pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor certificates and ratings for persons who have taken courses approved by the Administrator under other parts of this chapter.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that answers his question. I think he was questioning where the regs say that ground training is not ground training unless it is intended to be used for a certificate rating, privilege or currency.

You'd probably do better suggesting out that under 61.51, nothing needs to be logged at all unless for those purposes, so why should flight or ground be any different. Just don't log anything. Or you might point out that the Chief Counsel's office said within the past few years (I think with tongue firmly in cheek) that a checkout doesn't necessarily have to be training. Of course, if you refer to that, then you unfortunately wind up with, "A checkout is considered flight instruction if flight training is given during the checkout," which seems to be contrary to your view.
 
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