Aircraft recommendations...

Singlepilot

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Singlepilot
Hi all,
I'm new to the board and want to pose a question. What would be an ideal used airplane to buy? I would want room for 4 adults and baggage for longer trips. Ideally this airplane would be easy to maintain and reliable. Single or twin doesn't matter nor does the number of seats (minimum 4) but I'm looking for low acquisition costs and expenses that won't eat me alive. I know this probably doesn't describe any aircraft (haha) and it's probably a pipe dream but just curious what you would choose?

Thanks!
Sp
 
That is a hard question to answer without a lot more detail, but I think most people on here would tell you that for a mission of 4 full size adults and baggage, you really need to look at 6 seaters. Cherokee 6's are less expensive than A36 Bonanzas, but it all depends on your price range, speed preference, etc.
 
Depending on the size of the adults a Cherokee 235 or a Cessna 182 might also fill the bill but not as comfortably as a Six or a Bo
 
What do you mean it doesn't matter if it's a single or a twin? We also don't know what you mean by low acquisition costs. Can you provide a budget? Generic answer: Cessna 182.
 
Single Engine: A-36 Bonanza, Cherokee 6/Saratoga, Cessna 210

Twin Engine: B-55 Baron, Seneca III, Twin Comanche, Cessna 310

'Gimp
 
An older twin might work, the twin market is down right now. You would have to consider heavy maintenance on a twin. More info would be good. Welcome to the forum
 
How far is longer for a trip? How big are the people and how much luggage? How fast do you want to get there? What's your budget both for purchase and operating? Are you averse to experimental aircraft? Where do you live and where will you be flying?
 
Four people and baggage means at least 230 HP. However, everything else you say is too soft to come up with any ideas. Need more specifics, especially types of airports, terrain, range, speed, and budget, as well as your own capabilities and experience.
 
Find a nice Piper Apache, they are cheaper than dirt now.

plenty of carry capacity, and for a twin cheap to own.

There is one here at OKH that is for sale @ $25k. new paint, new props, good IFR equipment, Needs minor maintenance to complete the annual.
 
Thanks everyone,

To clarify it's for 2 adults and 2 growing kids. I'd rather not have to upgrade as the kids get older. Baggage - well you know how women pack. I don't really know how long the trips would be as I've never owned an airplane. If it's sitting at the airport I'm sure I'd find some places to take it. ;) Budget - well, whatever I can talk the wife into spending ;) For arguments sake I'll say under $150k. My experience - substantial...but I haven't flown GA in a while. Location - East Coast. Experimental a/c - I had not considered because I thought they were a little out of the mission parameters.

I've heard good things about a lot of the planes you've thrown out...
How is the payload on the Twin Comanche and the C-310?
Any advantages between the Cherokee 6-300 and the Saratoga?
I like the Senecas but I always thought they had much lower payload then the Aztecs. How are those two in comparison with maintenance costs? Compared to an older Baron?
Pros/cons between the Cessna 206 and 210?

Thanks for your input folks!
Sp
 
Hi all,
I'm new to the board and want to pose a question. What would be an ideal used airplane to buy? I would want room for 4 adults and baggage for longer trips. Ideally this airplane would be easy to maintain and reliable. Single or twin doesn't matter nor does the number of seats (minimum 4) but I'm looking for low acquisition costs and expenses that won't eat me alive. I know this probably doesn't describe any aircraft (haha) and it's probably a pipe dream but just curious what you would choose?

Thanks!
Sp

I've got a nice 310 that would fit your bill...


Old overwing exhaust 310's doesn't fit the bill as "expenses that won't eat me alive".
 
SP, I think a 310 would fit your bill provided you can afford it. It's basically a $10k/year plane before you start the engines, and for 100 hours a year (at around 175-185 kts) it's around $30k all in. We have one child and I find the plane holds about whatever you can stuff in a Suburban. A common family trip for us is 530ish nm, easy non-stop.

A Cherokee 6/Saratoga will cost more to buy, about the same per mile to own, and be slower. An A36 would be another option, but a smaller cabin and less storage than the 310.

I've put around 550 hours on the 310 and had an Aztec for another 1,000. The Aztec is good as well. Slower, similar cost per mile, more interior room, can haul anything, but has more air leaks so it's cold in the winter, even with the heater. The 310 is a better family plane.
 
Thanks for all of the replies...it certainly gives me a lot to consider.
Sp
 
Old overwing exhaust 310's doesn't fit the bill as "expenses that won't eat me alive".

True, except that all that was rebuilt along with about $200k of other work the previous 2 owners did over 12 year rebuild before I bought it, that's why I did.
 
Thanks for all of the replies...it certainly gives me a lot to consider.
Sp

Not the fastest of the bunch, but I've been very happy with a 206. I cruise about 150-155 true at 16.5-16.8. The reason to own one is space and load hauling. If your wife is anything like mine, this is what you will be dealing with:
 

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Not the fastest of the bunch, but I've been very happy with a 206. I cruise about 150-155 true at 16.5-16.8. The reason to own one is space and load hauling. If your wife is anything like mine, this is what you will be dealing with:

Your wife takes her wheels with her??!! You have a very strange wife.;)
 
Your wife takes her wheels with her??!! You have a very strange wife.;)

Wife won't drive in winter without snow tires, soooo I blame her for the wheels. :)

BTW MUCH easier to find an extra set of wheels for snow tires in warm climates ( BS airplane justification number 10,928)
 
To clarify it's for 2 adults and 2 growing kids. I'd rather not have to upgrade as the kids get older. Baggage - well you know how women pack.
Then we're talking a Cessna 182 or Piper Dakota as a minimum, and a 6-place will probably be necessary for baggage volume (if not for seating) as the kids get to teen age.

I don't really know how long the trips would be as I've never owned an airplane. If it's sitting at the airport I'm sure I'd find some places to take it. ;)
We'll leave that out for the time being.

Budget - well, whatever I can talk the wife into spending ;) For arguments sake I'll say under $150k.
How about your annual flying budget? A light simple single like a 172 will probably run you $10K a year or more, and a twin over twice that, with a complex single somewhere in between.

My experience - substantial...
That's a bit vague. Complex? Multi?

but I haven't flown GA in a while.
I'll assume that means you're flying professionally for air carriers or the like, so anything up to a cabin class twin would be within your capability.

Location - East Coast.
Then turbocharging/pressurization probably isn't a necessity.

Experimental a/c - I had not considered because I thought they were a little out of the mission parameters.
I think so, too. Yes, there are a few out there like the RV-10 which might fit the bill, but there are a lot of issues involved in E-AB aircraft ownership which lead me to recommend against one for a first ownership experience.

I've heard good things about a lot of the planes you've thrown out...
How is the payload on the Twin Comanche and the C-310?
With nearly twice the horsepower, the 310 has a good bit more payload, but either should be adequate for your mission.

Any advantages between the Cherokee 6-300 and the Saratoga?
Sixes are older and inherently lighter, giving you more payload. In particular, the newest PA32's with all the modern conveniences, soundproofing, and super-comfy interior have full-fuel payloads down near 600 lb, which may be a bit short for your needs. OTOH, Sixes are noiser, older, and usually less well equipped, although with your budget, you could buy a skimpily-equipped Six and upgrade it yourself.

I like the Senecas but I always thought they had much lower payload then the Aztecs.
Somewhat lower, but not enough so to be limiting with your planned loads. Also, the back door and club seating may be very nice for your family station wagon mission.

How are those two in comparison with maintenance costs?
The Seneca's turbocharged Continental engines are going to be significantly more expensive to maintain than the Aztec's Lycoming IO-540's. Other than that, about the same.

Compared to an older Baron?
Baron maintenance will be about the same as an Aztec or 310.

Pros/cons between the Cessna 206 and 210?
210's are a good bit faster, but will cost somewhat more to operate. 206's have the back door which the 210 lacks, and that may have implications for your family station wagon mission.

As always, if a twin is within your financial and pilot skill reach, I'd suggest, and the Seneca you mentioned seems an excellent fit for your mission. You might also consider a Cessna 303 Crusader, which has much the same capability, although there weren't many built. Both have turbocharged engines, which dramatically increases your single-engine service ceiling, and that's a significant safety advantage. The 310/Baron/Aztec class seems a bit more than you need. On the single-engine side, the Cessna 206 and Piper Cherokee Six seem good choices for fixed gear, with the Cessna 210/Piper Lance or Saratoga HP/Beech 36 Bonanza for retractables.

So, how much can you afford, and how much can you fly safely?
 
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Right now you can buy any number of piston twins for the same price as a piston single. You really have to think why that is. The reason why is few people can really afford to keep them in today's market. The gas and maintenance bills are hideous and crushing. Everything about a twin except the purchase price is about double.

The OP's desire to have something that is affordable long term says to me, it has to be a piston single. Flying a twin today is kind of like, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it." Many people still can afford it and are still flying them. Those are the great twins. They're not for sale.
 
Right now you can buy any number of piston twins for the same price as a piston single. You really have to think why that is. The reason why is few people can really afford to keep them in today's market. The gas and maintenance bills are hideous and crushing. Everything about a twin except the purchase price is about double.

The OP's desire to have something that is affordable long term says to me, it has to be a piston single. Flying a twin today is kind of like, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it." Many people still can afford it and are still flying them. Those are the great twins. They're not for sale.

I use 21gph to do 175-180kts compared to a Bonanza, Comanche, or 210 which uses 16gph to do 160. They'll all push 75% power to do their speed while I'm pushing 58-60%. Maintenance is always a toss up depending on the condition of the plane you start with and how hard you run it. Over 5 years that I had my Travelair and my buddy had his Bonanza, I consistently spent considerably less than he did. No aircraft is cheap to operate, and in the long run a twin will cost some extra, but it's not a "hideous and crushing" difference unless you operate with the "I didn't buy this plane to go slow" mentality.
 
Not the fastest of the bunch, but I've been very happy with a 206. I cruise about 150-155 true at 16.5-16.8. The reason to own one is space and load hauling. If your wife is anything like mine, this is what you will be dealing with:

That looks remarkably similar to how the 310 looked for Thanksgiving. Except replace the rims with a steam cleaner.
 
I use 21gph to do 175-180kts compared to a Bonanza, Comanche, or 210 which uses 16gph to do 160. They'll all push 75% power to do their speed while I'm pushing 58-60%. Maintenance is always a toss up depending on the condition of the plane you start with and how hard you run it. Over 5 years that I had my Travelair and my buddy had his Bonanza, I consistently spent considerably less than he did. No aircraft is cheap to operate, and in the long run a twin will cost some extra, but it's not a "hideous and crushing" difference unless you operate with the "I didn't buy this plane to go slow" mentality.

Well, more is more. The gas costs more, the annuals cost more, there is more to break, the training costs more, the insurance costs more and even the hangar often costs more. Like I said, there are plenty of people operating twins well with in their means and that's fine. It's just that some people get suckered in by the low acquisition costs and hope for the best on the rest. When a guy comes on here and says "expenses that won't eat me alive", recommending a twin just doesn't spring to mind. However, it all depends on ones discretionary income and how much of that gets spent on an annual aviation budget.
 
Well, more is more. The gas costs more, the annuals cost more, there is more to break, the training costs more, the insurance costs more and even the hangar often costs more. Like I said, there are plenty of people operating twins well with in their means and that's fine. It's just that some people get suckered in by the low acquisition costs and hope for the best on the rest. When a guy comes on here and says "expenses that won't eat me alive", recommending a twin just doesn't spring to mind. However, it all depends on ones discretionary income and how much of that gets spent on an annual aviation budget.

Insurance does not cost more, training does not cost more, these are myths. When I bought my Travel Air my insurance first time up having a total time of 60hrs with a PP and no IR or Multi Rating was $1100, that was half of what my insurance guy could get me covered for in a Bonanza, I needed 25hrs, 15 dual 10 solo, and to do my ME rating in the plane, that's not particularly onerous. Once you have 100hrs in a recip retract plane less than 6 seats you end up with an insurance premium that's 1.5% of insured value regardless if it has one engine or two. When I got the 310 insured first year it was $1700 on $100,000k value and the insurance company required that I do an IPC in the plane, that's it, again, not onerous.
 
Cap'n Ron, thanks for the feedback. Alex, that's the kind of baggage I'm talking about! :yes: I agree with iHenning that not everything would be more expensive but when there are two of some components it will be naturally more expensive.

My dilemma is I want to balance load carrying, costs and the safety of the extra engine. I know statistics don't say a second engine is always safer but if professionally flown I think it gives you options even with the low single-engine climb rates of GA twins. Speed isn't my biggest concern but if I could go 30-40 knots faster and "comparatively economically" at he same time I wouldn't complain.

What I would really like is a PC-12 but, alas, I don't have a few million laying around...
 
Cap'n Ron, thanks for the feedback....
What I would really like is a PC-12 but, alas, I don't have a few million laying around...
Well, if you're an air carrier pilot, I think you'd really like the Cessna 303 (feels like a "big" plane in a lot of ways), and there seem to be a good number available in the $150K range.
 
More for sale in Pakistan I see. I'll just pop over and have a quick look...:wink2:
 
Well, if you're an air carrier pilot, I think you'd really like the Cessna 303 (feels like a "big" plane in a lot of ways), and there seem to be a good number available in the $150K range.

You don't want a $150k 303. They are priced at that point for a good reason.

To be honest, while it is a neat airplane and has some cool features, I don't think I'd buy one. It does have the feel of a "mini cabin class", but it's slower than a 310, don't think the fuel burn is much different, has some definite reliability issues, they didn't make many, they vibrate... list goes on.
 
You don't want a $150k 303. they vibrate...

Don't they all??? Seriously though, I think I'd prefer to have something more mainstream. I like what the 310's and the Aztec's bring to the table but I've never flown the 310. All my GA twin time is in Seneca's and Aztec's. On the single side I like the 206/210 and the Saratoga/Lance with most of my time being in the Piper products as well. Does the 206/210 fly similarly to the 182's?

Eventually I'm going to need to get off the computer and just start looking at some airplanes. I'm not in a big hurry so that's an advantage.
 
Aztec, Baron, and 310 cost about the same to operate per hour. You choose the Aztec if if you need load hauling ability, you choose the 310 if you want the extra distance for the fuel. The Baron gives you the efficiency of the 310 but you give up some cabin size/comfort, but gain rugged gear if you are operating rough.
 
Does the 206/210 fly similarly to the 182's?

I've owned both 182's and 206's. Many compare a 182 to a 172 by saying the 182 is heavier in pitch and more nose heavy. Comparing a 206 to a 182 is more of the same. The biggest distinction I can give with a 206 is that it is an aircraft that must be flown with trim vs. its lighter siblings. It also doesn't like to be over controlled and rewards that with PIO's. Once you get used to a 206, most everyone likes it because handled right it stays on course like a tank plowing through some village. Weather, turbulence, etc. won't have you going all over the sky. Makes flying an approach in really bad weather easy. Also, having so much drag makes it an easy aircraft to fly fast to the numbers and still get down. Ironically, I have no problem with class B fast approach speed requests even though I am flying pretty much maxed out to the numbers.
 
Don't they all??? Seriously though, I think I'd prefer to have something more mainstream. I like what the 310's and the Aztec's bring to the table but I've never flown the 310. All my GA twin time is in Seneca's and Aztec's. On the single side I like the 206/210 and the Saratoga/Lance with most of my time being in the Piper products as well. Does the 206/210 fly similarly to the 182's?

Eventually I'm going to need to get off the computer and just start looking at some airplanes. I'm not in a big hurry so that's an advantage.

Yes, all planes vibrate. The 303s are known for vibrating worse, a function of the lack of counterweights in the engine (which were removed for weight savings). Compare that to the 310 I fly which, after dynamic balancing, is extremely smooth, and it wasn't bad before that. Aztec wasn't bad, either.

Having a bunch of Aztec and 310 time, the 310 is a much nicer flying airplane and passengers like it better, plus it's faster. The Aztec is a better load hauler and you can fly it through the lake on the Gaston's runway without issue. So depending on your mission, pick one. I don't think anyone has said that an Aztec is a nicer flying plane than a 310.
 
The Baron gives you the efficiency of the 310 but you give up some cabin size/comfort, but gain rugged gear if you are operating rough.

All true, but I would add that the Baron also gives you a little better parts availability.
 
All true, but I would add that the Baron also gives you a little better parts availability.

:dunno: Doesn't seem to be much problem on 310 parts. There was an issue with the torque tube for the gear, but I understand that's been solved. Personally I would fabricate my own reinforced one if I needed one.
 
All true, but I would add that the Baron also gives you a little better parts availability.

I've never had to source parts for a Baron, so I can't compare. New factory airframe parts for Twin Cessnas do have a number of issues. Cost is typically ridiculous, and lead times are long for many items - a common complaint within the group that was voiced to Cessna at the last convention. Take, as an example, the replacement step for the 310N that I fly. It's a part that should never break in the first place, but Cessna wants $3,000 for a new one with 0 in stock, long lead times.

However, that's also one part I've needed to buy for the plane in about 3.5 years and 500 hours, and I was able to source a used part for $320 that ought to do the trick. Most of the parts you need to get are either generic airframe parts (brakes, tires, rivets, etc.) or from a supplier other than the airframe OEM.
 
New factory airframe parts for Twin Cessnas do have a number of issues. Cost is typically ridiculous,

That is one of the funny things....people historically bad mouth Beech for expensive parts, but Cessna is just as bad if not worse.
 
That is one of the funny things....people historically bad mouth Beech for expensive parts, but Cessna is just as bad if not worse.

I wonder if the difference isn't that you can find more used Cessna parts from junkyards, and so the end cost is typically less even if you aren't quite getting the same thing.
 
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