Aircraft ownership

Techsan02

Techsan02

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Aug 24, 2014
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15
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Fort Worth
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WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot
So, I have been itching to start flying again after being out of the game for several years after getting my PPL. Remembering back to my flying days renting a plane from my FBO was feasible for an hour or two flight. But i'm wanting to fly more often and take weekend trips. The only reasonable way is by owning my own airplane.

So, my question is, if I buy an airplane ie. Cherokee 180, cessna 172, etc.. would it be possible to start a "flying club" if you will, and bring on two or three pilots and charge like a monthly fee. Not to make money but to make flying manageable for us private pilots. Just enough to help me maintain the cost of maintenance to the aircraft, while allowing a few other pilots to also enjoy flying at a low cost.

In my mind this makes sense, but has anybody tried this. It wouldn't be a typical flying club where each owner owns a stake in the club. The monthly dues basically help cover annual and general maintenance. I would also carry the insurance necessary.

As all of the aircraft owners on here know the cost to own a plane, do you think this is a good idea? I'm in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area, so I would think I could get a few guys interested in sharing the cost.

Thoughts or suggestions?
 
If you do find a way an factually decide to set this up let me know. I'm currently an IR student at TCC and would be interested in something like this.
 
Welcome.

Keep in mind everything you are asking has certainly been tried before.

I cringe when I see "not like the typical flying club". There are flying clubs that have successfully operated for decades.

I wholeheartedly recommend you find one and talk to the folks who run it and they'll explain along with horror stories exactly why it operates the way it does.
 
Contact AOPA in your research. The short answer is "'yes". You can create an LLC to limit liability, have a buy-in amount, monthly fee, and small hourly. Or however you want to do it.

Setting this up is complex, and you will need to understand and manage all the regs, insurance, etc. It's a lot of work, even with a small group.

And make sure you really know the other folks...how much they want to fly, financial situation, and have a contract that covers all scenarios, such as someone losing a job...or losing interest and not paying...or wanting and unable to sell...or using the plane too much.

I think AOPA can advise you on these and other issues. They have a new initiative to help folks create clubs.
 
If your not selling shares in the aircraft,it could prove difficult. The other pilots can come into the group,and fly the h*** out of the airplane!and walk away!when the overhaul is due. Also the other pilots can leave the group leaving you with all the costs. Talk to AOPA .
 
Welcome to PoA.

Get all your numbers straight before rolling down this path. There are many expensive line items you may not have considered yet.

That being said, around DFW, there are many existing shared ownership opportunities with shares available. My club, for example (see http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73835). While we don't permit primary training, it is an excellent deal once you have your PPL.
 
I used to call call everything with a high wing a Cessna and everything with a low wing a Piper.... so what started out as research to learn about different manufactures and models turned into a quest to find a suitable ownership plan for myself. There's an AOPA guide on starting a club which is a decent read and help explains some things. Might be a place to start.

I think what you're talking about with 2-3 people is more of a partnership or co-ownership scenario. In that case I'm not sure a monthly fee is necessary. From conversations with others operation costs such as hanger, insurance, annual, consumable maintenance ect is split among the members evenly. Overhaul is prorated and split among the member either at time due or when they sell off their share.

Maybe easier if I explain what I ended up doing. I was in the market for an early model plane for < $50K to build some hours, do some trips ect. Through a mutual friend met a guy who was going to sell his 1978 172N that he had been fixing up. However once talking to him we decided it would actually make more sense to partner on it, finish refitting it and fly that for a number of years.
 
We bought a plane as a group. Three of us purchased a piper 235 and so far it has done well for us. Everyone pays their monthly payments and monthly portion of maintenance. Fuel has not been an issue because after each flight, the last guy fills the plane back up. we have reserve funds setup for maintenance and annuals. Any additional items we buy for the plane is bought as a partnership or if any of us decide to buy other stuff, we just buy it and go on. We love our plane and we are glad that we did it this way. Makes sense especially with me training still and my partners as PPL.
 
Sharing an aircraft is like sharing an apartment, or a wife. The big difference being if someone abuses the wife or trashes the apartment you can quickly find another. Not true of the aircraft.
 
CTLSi said:
Sharing an aircraft is like sharing an apartment, or a wife. The big difference being if someone abuses the wife or trashes the apartment you can quickly find another. Not true of the aircraft.
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I guess there are people that 'share their wife'... personally don't have experience with that so can't attest to it.
 
...bought into a 4 way partnership here as well. We have it setup as a LLP. Each person owns shares and has voting rights. We have by-laws, etc... So, changes can be made but it requires a majority to do so...things like adding another Partner, booting an existing Partner, etc...

It works out great for us. 4 is kind of a magical number, I think. It's enough that the plane gets flown but not so many that you are fighting for time and everyone is pre-booking even though they aren't sure they are going to use it...but want to reserve it just in case.

In almost 2 years since I started my training to now as a licensed pilot, there hasn't been a single time where there was contention for the plane. It helps that everyone is friends and if there were one it would be easily worked out. For example, there's one guy in the group who has been in the longest and he rarely flies. I think he does 3-4 trips a year for a week or two and maybe a few $100 burger runs. When he wants the plane, we just give it to him.

We do the same with collecting for annuals and engine overhauls. We take $15/hobbs hour into the fund to cover. For stuff like avionics upgrades, etc... we just decide what we're going to do and pay for it out of pocket.
 
muleywannabe said:
We bought a plane as a group. Three of us purchased a piper 235 and so far it has done well for us. Everyone pays their monthly payments and monthly portion of maintenance. Fuel has not been an issue because after each flight, the last guy fills the plane back up. we have reserve funds setup for maintenance and annuals. Any additional items we buy for the plane is bought as a partnership or if any of us decide to buy other stuff, we just buy it and go on. We love our plane and we are glad that we did it this way. Makes sense especially with me training still and my partners as PPL.
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Do you guys top all 4 tanks, or just the inboards?
 
...we fly a 235 as well and we top all 4 tanks before stowing it away.

The 235 is a mule so the weight of the extra 34 gallons of fuel is a non-issue from a W&B perspective. Even with full fuel we still have around 900lbs available for butts and bags...
 
kenjr said:
...we fly a 235 as well and we top all 4 tanks before stowing it away.

The 235 is a mule so the weight of the extra 34 gallons of fuel is a non-issue from a W&B perspective. Even with full fuel we still have around 900lbs available for butts and bags...
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You think it's a non issue? Take a look at your fuel economy difference without it, flying around an extra 200lbs doesn't come for free. There is also climb performance, the faster you make 700' the better off you are, and extra energy and speed on landing.

Tankering fuel does not make sense from an economic, performance, or safety aspect. If you need the fuel, take the fuel, take a reserve then a smidge if you want. But if you are going for a $100 hamburger or a pancake breakfast 75 miles away, or shooting some pattern or instrument work for an hour or so, tankering 300% fuel is a bad idea.
 
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denverpilot said:
Welcome.

Keep in mind everything you are asking has certainly been tried before.

I cringe when I see "not like the typical flying club". There are flying clubs that have successfully operated for decades.

I wholeheartedly recommend you find one and talk to the folks who run it and they'll explain along with horror stories exactly why it operates the way it does.
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And find a really good contracts lawyer to help set up the arrangement. Check the AOPA website for varieties of airplane ownership/usage.
 
Thank you for the quick responses! I am definitely going to research this a lot more.
 
...I don't disagree with you Henning. If it were my own plane then I don't think I'd leave anything in the tips unless I needed it. However, with 4 people in the airplane it's just easier to put it back full vs trying to figure out how much someone used on the last trip and trying to figure out who owes what for fuel.

What I meant was not that there isn't a price to pay in terms of hauling around extra fuel...it's that we're not flying a 152 where you have to think about it every time you go up.
 
kenjr said:
...I don't disagree with you Henning. If it were my own plane then I don't think I'd leave anything in the tips unless I needed it. However, with 4 people in the airplane it's just easier to put it back full vs trying to figure out how much someone used on the last trip and trying to figure out who owes what for fuel.

What I meant was not that there isn't a price to pay in terms of hauling around extra fuel...it's that we're not flying a 152 where you have to think about it every time you go up.
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I understand the issue, but the solution you have found is the least economic or safe.
 
Reading the first post, I'm not sure that ownership is the only option. You may wanna look around at some of the local clubs and what their policies are. I haven't been at this long, but when I started looking at numbers I found that for me ownership just didn't make much sense, even though I'm looking at logging a lot of hours this year while working on all my ratings. The club I belong to only charges $30/month, has over 60 planes available so there's almost never a conflict, and if you wanna take a weekend or longer trip you just book it a little in advance to make sure those days are open. They only charge a 1hr per day minimum for 24hr or longer reservations so you'd have to be flying somewhere really close, and staying a while for it to not make sense.

I totally understand the desire to own something of your own, and that's certainly a dream I still have, but just not one I could justify. It sounds like adding all the extra users would just add complexity and headache to me.
 
StinkBug said:
It sounds like adding all the extra users would just add complexity and headache to me.
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Depends on the number I suppose. 4 or less is probably easy, 15 would complicate it a bit.

For me it came down to the rent vs own dilemma. I would rather pay my own gas and maintenance and have equity in something I can sell or tradeup for later.
 
Henning said:
I understand the issue, but the solution you have found is the least economic or safe.
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He didn't provide any information that shows it is not "safe."

As long as the W&B is within limits then it is as safe full as it is at any other fuel level.

I can easily understand how that arrangement might be inconvenient by limiting payload, or less economical by carrying around excess fuel.
 
petrolero said:
He didn't provide any information that shows it is not "safe."

As long as the W&B is within limits then it is as safe full as it is at any other fuel level.

I can easily understand how that arrangement might be inconvenient by limiting payload, or less economical by carrying around excess fuel.
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I didn't say it wasn't safe, I said it was the least safe. Regardless W&B any extra weight carried is extra kinetic energy carried into an accident. That adds injury risk. With fuel it is flammable excess energy so that puts an exponent of a flaming death or worse, severely burned survival to the risk factor. Is the risk tolerable? Most would say so and in and of itself is not inclined to get me to give it much consideration especially solo. The fact that fuel is now over $6 a gallon and that 200 pounds is going to cost me fuel to fly around, when combined, it becomes a swaying argument to me. Add in the climb performance increase and it becomes a no brainer to me.
 
I'd think the easy solution would be to use the fuel in those tanks, then agree to all keep them empty and fill only the inners unless your trip needs more fuel. Then there's no argument about who owes for fuel. Everyone fills the inner tanks, and if they leave extra behind in the tips that just is the way it is.
 
Techsan02 said:
Thank you for the quick responses! I am definitely going to research this a lot more.
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A reminder that there are more than a few of us in the DFW area that could have our arms twisted to take you up for a flight.

Especially with the appropriate suggestion of Red Barn Burgers or Hard 8 BBQ
 
That's what we do. Our aircraft is registered to an LLC, and each of the three of us own a third of the LLC's assets (bank account and plane, basically). We charge a small hourly fee for the engine reserve fund, and split costs three ways. It's a perfect way to own a plane, IMO.
 
StinkBug said:
I'd think the easy solution would be to use the fuel in those tanks, then agree to all keep them empty and fill only the inners unless your trip needs more fuel. Then there's no argument about who owes for fuel. Everyone fills the inner tanks, and if they leave extra behind in the tips that just is the way it is.
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I don't disagree. But I'm 1/4 of the vote and the others want to keep them full. So, it is what it is...

Keeping the tanks full and paying the price is still cheaper than me owning this plane outright and doing whatever I want. :)
 
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