Aircraft owners thoughts on IA requirement for annual inspection

Status
Not open for further replies.
A

akmetal

Pre-Flight
Joined
Aug 5, 2024
Messages
30
Display Name
Display name:
akmetal
What is the general sentiment of aircraft owners regarding the requirements of needing an IA to complete an annual inspection to return a plane to service?

After the over turn of Chevron does anyone think that there are enough owners to mount a law suit against the FAA to remove the IA requirement and only require an A&P?
 
If you don't want to use an IA, get a homebuilt.

Chevron deference never applied here. The regulations' language is clear. The ruling overturns the principle that the agencies are responsible for interpreting their own poorly crafted regulations. It doesn't invalidate all regulations.
 
And it's a good idea, to have two sets of eyes on things. Some guys will see stuff others miss. I have a friend who is an A&P that does his condition inspections, but while he has it opened up he gets another to come over and inspect it too.
 
Deregulation rarely happens even if it makes sense. For example, someone can finish an experimental and get a repairman's certificate and do their own annuals but you could do a ground up restoration on an airplane and still need an A&P and IA. I think most seasoned people also realize an IA is more often than not a paid signature and not another inspection.
 
akmetal said:
What is the general sentiment of aircraft owners regarding the requirements of needing an IA to complete an annual inspection to return a plane to service?

After the over turn of Chevron does anyone think that there are enough owners to mount a law suit against the FAA to remove the IA requirement and only require an A&P?
Click to expand...
There are a whole lot of other federal regulatory issues that I would choose to go after long before this one.
 
There are many AP that are IA also. They do the annual and sign it off.
 
Racerx said:
Or move to Canada.
Click to expand...
The Canadian Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (AME) is roughly equivalent to the A&P-IA. Certainly no cheaper. We can sign off inspections the day we're licensed. There is no two-step process. We have to have formal training, 48 months of apprenticeship, and be at least 21 years old.

But in Canada a lot of older airplanes are eligible for the Owner-Maintenance registration category. The owner, if he has at least a private pilot license, can do his own maintenance and annuals.
 
Dan Thomas said:
The Canadian Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (AME) is roughly equivalent to the A&P-IA. Certainly no cheaper. We can sign off inspections the day we're licensed. There is no two-step process. We have to have formal training, 48 months of apprenticeship, and be at least 21 years old.

But in Canada a lot of older airplanes are eligible for the Owner-Maintenance registration category. The owner, if he has at least a private pilot license, can do his own maintenance and annuals.
Click to expand...
The owner maintenance category is what I was alluding to.
 
The A & P has often been described as a “ License to Learn”.

I agree with that comment. Many owners are not aware of the constraints

imposed by FAR 65 . Paraphrase: If you have not successfully accomplished

a task you are not allowed to do it. To my knowledge there is no Part 147

Tech School that has a lineup of 172’s , Cherokees , Robinsons, Cirrus’s,

Citations etc for students to do a complete inspection on. There is

not enough hours in the curriculum to do that.


Many A & P’s will adopt an IA or older A & P to turn to for guidance.

Airlines and Repair Stations usually have some type of training program

to assist with Career Progression. btw - An A&P at a Repair Station can

become an Inspector that would allow performing an Annual Inspection

under the RS Certification.


Qualifying for the IA requires holding the A & P for 3 years. During that time

you must have acquired 2 years of experience. The IA is primarily

about the alphabet ie. AD’s , STC’s, TCDS, PMA etc etc.

Familiarity with these is at a totally different level between most A&P’s

and most IA’s. If the A & P is proficient with these and Inspections then

why not just get the IA? Currency requirements are minimal.

If you can’t pass the test why should you be able to excercise the privileges?
 
Last edited:
akmetal said:
After the over turn of Chevron does anyone think that there are enough owners to mount a law suit against the FAA to remove the IA requirement and only require an A&P?
Click to expand...
The one thing you have to keep in mind is that 80+% of the FARs are required for the FAA to remain compliant with ICAO Annex 8 agreement which the US is a signatory to. And this includes the IA requirement for Annual inspections. By dropping the IA requirement for aircraft with a Standard AWC without an appropriate replacement, every N-reg aircraft could no longer be able operate outside the US which would include the 1000s of N-reg aircraft currently operating in various countries.

This is the exact reason the TCCA Owner Maintained aircraft can never leave Canada as they no longer meet the requirements of Annex 8. Now, there are routes to take your personal N-reg aircraft down this path by dropping the Standard AWC, then operate under a Special AWC where the only requirement is usually for an A&P only to sign a Condition Inspection once a year similar to an E/AB. But its basically moot that any attempt to drop the IA requirement would even make it to square one.
 
Last edited:
Yes, my statement wasn't clear. I had just read about the "second set of eyes" and it was more about that than anything.
 
The issue is the cost for that IA signature is getting steep 2,500 to 3,000 just for the inspection, because of the 2-3 year wait I won’t be able to fly my plane for that long unless I just want to get ripped off.

Seems like alot of rights are violated in this process, like right to association etc.

Could also move to a private airfield that won’t let FAA in without a court order?
 
Half Fast said:
:popcorn:
Click to expand...
I mean am I wrong? When someone is trying to fleece you for thousands its tough to put it in a dinner party positive light. It didn't used to be an issue when you could get an annual done for like $1000 and that also got you some actual work done and some training at the same time.

It seems like at the very minimum the 3 year waiting period should be looked at?
 
akmetal said:
The issue is the cost for that IA signature is getting steep 2,500 to 3,000 just for the inspection, because of the 2-3 year wait I won’t be able to fly my plane for that long unless I just want to get ripped off.

Seems like alot of rights are violated in this process, like right to association etc.

Could also move to a private airfield that won’t let FAA in without a court order?
Click to expand...
Flying is expensive. Complying with the legal requirements is expensive. Not complying with the legal requirements is even more expensive.

Maybe you simply have too much airplane.
 
lmars said:
Yes, my statement wasn't clear. I had just read about the "second set of eyes" and it was more about that than anything.
Click to expand...
Would you pay 3 grand for a second set of eyes?
 
Dan Thomas said:
Flying is expensive. Complying with the legal requirements is expensive. Not complying with the legal requirements is even more expensive.

Maybe you simply have too much airplane.
Click to expand...
the plane is 980 lbs pitts S2B I have been flying for over a decade, I fly the plane well, IA's just keep upping fees. Its not that I don't have the money but I want to get something out of that money. If I needed a prop installed or some other significant mx that would be be different. You don't get wealthy throwing money into a burn barrel.

This question is of particular interest and I have not been able to find anything online with regards to private property airfields and the FAA:
Can you operate out of a private airfield that requires FAA to have a warrant, thus not really needing an annual as its unenforcable?
 
Last edited:
akmetal said:
I mean am I wrong? When someone is trying to fleece you for thousands its tough to put it in a dinner party positive light. It didn't used to be an issue when you could get an annual done for like $1000 and that also got you some actual work done and some training at the same time.

It seems like at the very minimum the 3 year waiting period should be looked at?
Click to expand...

My last annual was $700. Maybe you own the wrong plane.
 
akmetal said:
The issue is the cost for that IA signature is getting steep 2,500 to 3,000 just for the inspection
Click to expand...
Except its strictly a supply and demand issue that has been exacerbated by the retirement of existing IAs, the lack of interest for young people to enter the aviation maintenance field, and overhead cost increase. Same for many other technical fields. In the 30+ years I provided aircraft maintenance my liability insurance costs went from $2000 per year to over $11,000 per year. So is it your stance that I should not pass on my increases to you and lose money? In the end it has zero to do with the requirement to use an IA for an annual.:rolleyes:
akmetal said:
Could also move to a private airfield that won’t let FAA in without a court order?
Click to expand...
Not really. US law allows the FAA to go where they need when it comes to N- reg aircraft. Even in overseas locations.
 
akmetal said:
The issue is the cost for that IA signature is getting steep 2,500 to 3,000 just for the inspection, because of the 2-3 year wait I won’t be able to fly my plane for that long unless I just want to get ripped off.

Seems like alot of rights are violated in this process, like right to association etc.

Could also move to a private airfield that won’t let FAA in without a court order?
Click to expand...

What specific rights are being violated? Can you point to specific language that guarantees you a right to an annual inspection at a time and place of your choosing given no advanced planning?

What right to association is being violated? Are you referring to peaceable assembly or something else? Details matter here.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Flying is expensive. Complying with the legal requirements is expensive. Not complying with the legal requirements is even more expensive.

Maybe you simply have too much airplane.
Click to expand...

Bell206 said:
Except its strictly a supply and demand issue that has been exacerbated by the retirement of existing IAs, the lack of interest for young people to enter the aviation maintenance field, and overhead cost increase. Same for many other technical fields. In the 30+ years I provided aircraft maintenance my liability insurance costs went from $2000 per year to over $11,000 per year. So is it your stance that I should not pass on my increases to you and lose money? In the end it has zero to do with the requirement to use an IA for an annual.:rolleyes:

Not really. US law allows the FAA to go where they need when it comes to N- reg aircraft. Even in overseas locations.
Click to expand...
So they can jump fences and pry open doors or trespass with no legal warrents or obvious probsble cause?
 
TCABM said:
What specific rights are being violated? Can you point to specific language that guarantees you a right to an annual inspection at a time and place of your choosing given no advanced planning?

What right to association is being violated? Are you referring to peaceable assembly or something else? Details matter here.
Click to expand...
Imagine if every one that owned a car had to get a costly “annual” every year to use there car from a special govt sanctioned mechanic, that would go over like a lead balloon.

The right to use my own property with out being compelled by the govt to do business with a 3rd party
 
Half Fast said:
My last annual was $700. Maybe you own the wrong plane.
Click to expand...
i have no interest in aviation other than to take off from one air strip fly aerobatics and land at the same air strip. Maybe if I could build a huge one man drone that could fly across the desert at 140 mph that would be cool and then just land where ever.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Is that you, William?
pilotsofamerica.com

Sovereign Citizen nearly causes midair

https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/aviation/2024/07/23/federal-charges-palmer-man-who-almost-caused-midair-collision-said-he-was-free-citizen-who-didnt-need-pilot-license-registration/
pilotsofamerica.com pilotsofamerica.com
Click to expand...
This is a very interesting case study, had there not been a mid air near miss and this guy was going from private property to private property in class G (or at least not A B or C air spaces) then what could the FAA do if there are no criminal incidents.


I think in all reality all we have to do is wait a little longer for the continued assault on the administrative state. I am extremely excited to see these administrations dissolved completely, Chevron was just the beginning. Everyone, even all-in pilots and mechanics whose incomes depends on the FARs have to know that this nations regulatory burdens are making us non-competitive globally. I just read that we are going to be outsourcing parts of our aircraft carriers because there's so much red tape and bull S t to do anything in a US shipyard causing costs to skyrocket.
 
akmetal said:
This question is of particular interest and I have not been able to find anything online with regards to private property airfields and the FAA:
Can you operate out of a private airfield that requires FAA to have a warrant, thus not really needing an annual as its unenforcable?
Click to expand...

Many have done so, but not legally... and what happens if you crash or have a forced landing beyond the boundaries of your property?
 
Is OP an A&P that is concerned about 3 year requirement to be an IA

in order to perform Annual?

I take “3000 just for the inspection” as opening, cleaning, servicing ,

repairs and closing are NOT included.

I’m not a “Pitts Person” and therefore not really familiar with all

Inspection Requirements but it seems the time should be similar to

a Cherokee or 172.

The first time an IA performs an Inspection a lot of time is expended

on paperwork research. In subsequent years this time should be drastically

reduced. Is OP getting a new IA every year?
 
I just finished an annual on very simple 172 following the Cessna SM checklist.
If you fly a lot than there is plenty to keep up with.
I think $2500-3000 is very fair in today's world if they really follow the checklist and don't cut corners. That number should not include oil and filters etc, parts should be extra.
As each year goes by I think to myself that cutting a check for 2500 might be easier if it was that cheap? But then I would loose track on what was done and I want to know since I fly the plane.
I want my IA to focus on my plane, not just me. Sometimes I think he trust me too much?
Has the OP ever helped with a annual?
 
akmetal said:
This is a very interesting case study, had there not been a mid air near miss and this guy was going from private property to private property in class G (or at least not A B or C air spaces) then what could the FAA do if there are no criminal incidents.
Click to expand...
The FAA could issue a violation, fines, suspension, revocation…
 
dtuuri said:
When I was a new A&P and an aircraft owner, I learned the importance of having an AI keep tabs on my work.
Click to expand...
I don't understand this. An AI (you mean IA) has no part in your work as an anp (save 337s). Your signature is YOUR statement of RTS, not an IA. An IA cannot undo your signature, and unless they are performing an inspection under their IA authority, they cannot issue a discrepancy (and would not have a logbook to record it in).

If you mean 'someone smarter' then ok, but an IA has nothing to do with it... I know tons of smart anps that simply don't want the headache of an IA
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top