Aircraft for IFR Training and Beyond

Eric S

Eric S

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Sep 17, 2018
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100
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East Troy, WI
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X117A
Hello All,

Been reading the forums for a while, and seeing the vast piloting experience on offer I have finally decided to get some advice.

So I'm 40 in IT and have decided to change careers and pursue my dream of flying professionally. I successfully got my PPL in April in a C172 and have taken a few flights since and am thoroughly hooked. Now as I want to work through all of my ratings up to CFI and doing the maths on aircraft ownership I am now looking at getting my 1st plane.

Based on what I think I will be doing my mission is as such:

1. Stable IFR platform I can complete my IR rating in.
2. Capable XC cruiser that can take 2 people and some luggage comfortably. (I am anticipating at least 1 XC trip per month of over 300 Miles and some even longer) So decent performance would be a plus.
3. If I can, get something that is Auto fuel STC capable that would be a plus, but not a hard requirement. (I know this would limit the higher performance options like Mooney etc..)
4. Budget would be up to 60K, but would like to stay below as much as possible.

At the moment my plan is to consult part time to continue to get some income and fly at least 2 or 3 weekdays a week for at least 2 hours (I know this is a lot) to build PIC and XC time. Then train full time with a CFI or Solo 2 days per week for at least 4 hours per day. So saying that something reliable and comfortable would be a must.

So based on the above requirements I feel I have 2 options (or maybe 3):

1. Get something like a C172, AA5, PA-28-180 with good avionics. As these all should be able to be Auto Fuel STC'ed and cruise at 100 to 115 kts.
2. Bite the bullet and get something faster and more complex like a Mooney 20C, Bonanza, C182 (or C210 if I can find one for the price) or Archer. Take the hit on 1st year insurance and getting complex endorsements and extra CFI time.
3. Go the crazy route and buy a light twin of some sort like a Baron or C310. (I know for practical reasons this is a really silly idea, but then I end up with a ton of ME PIC time.)

So apologies in advance for the long post, and I now welcome any ideas or questions anyone has. But remember this is my 1st real post so please at least be a little bit gentle :).
 
Eric S said:
At the moment my plan is to consult part time to continue to get some income and fly at least 2 or 3 weekdays a week for at least 2 hours (I know this is a lot) to build PIC and XC time. Then train full time with a CFI or Solo 2 days per week for at least 4 hours per day. So saying that something reliable and comfortable would be a must.
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My suggestion is to not quit your day job until you have all your ratings and enough time to land a steady flying job.

You should be financially secure as well (debts paid off, emergency fund intact, etc.)
 
Agree on the debt and already done. Pretty much have worked hard the past 4\5 years to pay off the house, remove all debt, and have enough to buy the airplane for cash and be able to pay for training with no debt.

The consulting is pretty much for incidentals and to keep some income coming in.
 
As a 182 flyer I’m partial to that. Two more ppl with luggage will be a tall order for the 172 and possibly the archer.
Stable IFR platform is all about avionics. I agree with the idea of working through your certs. It’s going to take some time even with your own plane to build enough until you get your cfi.
 
If ATP is your ultimate goal, why not go through one of the professional pilot programs out there? You'll spend less money in the long run and get yourself hired as a pilot much faster.

IMHO $60k is a good amount of money to buy half of the plane you're looking for. Depending on where you're located, you can probably find a good XC IFR plane that doesn't fly enough and buy into it as a partner or dry lease it.
 
benyflyguy said:
As a 182 flyer I’m partial to that. Two more ppl with luggage will be a tall order for the 172 and possibly the archer.
Stable IFR platform is all about avionics. I agree with the idea of working through your certs. It’s going to take some time even with your own plane to build enough until you get your cfi.
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I disagree. Stable IFR is a plane with positive static and at least neutral dynamic stability. Often for newbie IR positive dynamic is even better.
Avionics should play second fiddle to how the plane flies.
In addition, descent wing loading helps when dealing with wind,gusts and general weather.

Tim

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
 
You sound pretty smart with your money! I should note I have no aspirations to become a airline pilot however we do own a 182 and I finished my PPL recently as well.

I could get ripped for this but I think I would remove any twins from your list above (but keep twins on other lists :)). My wife flew for the airlines. She surely did not have 1500hrs MEL. I think the multi engine time is more about the minimums. Now you won't be cool like @Radar Contact without a twin but you'll have more of your money left.

As much as I love our 182, I think its a plane to own and fly and definitely do some training in, but not to time build 1500hrs. I think you'd be wasting a lot of fuel $$$$ and you'll mostly likely run out the motor (many are 1500TBO) which is a $40K hit you'll take halfway through training or at the end when you get out.

I would also advise against the 210. Even more fuel and annuals will cost event more. Awesome planes. If I was a bit more wealthy a 210 might be our next plane. But once again you'll be spending more money that you need to time build.

Regarding the auto fuel STC. Yep, sure get that Cessna 182 like a 'P' model. But I think you will regret it. You will need to buy ethanol free fuel so it will be cheaper than 100LL but more than your car gas. Then there is the issue with the fuel bladders and other software that doesn't like auto fuel (if done wrong). And finally there is storage and handling. Most rental hangars (especially city run) only allow like 5gal of fuel in the hangar other than in the vehicles. And hardly any airport sell mogas and if they do they also mark it up some. So you'd need to devise a trailer to buy it, haul it, pump it and store it somewhere else. And car gas absolutely stinks. Yep, the price is right but too many negatives IMHO.

On your topic of cross countries (at least one 300nm per month). You may find that harder to do than you think. I am sure with a IR you can up your hours flown but between wx, work, etc it is difficult to get in lots of cross countries per month. If you are single...much easier. If you are married, a bit less time. If you have kids /dogs that time can be hard to come by.

But I think you should own a plane. I would even recommend a 182. But not for timebuilding. Maybe you should buy a share in plane. Fly that for a year and get as much time as you can and then buy or re-compute.

If you have the time and could instruct you will build way more hours that way with nothing out of pocket.

One more 182 comment. I don't think you'll find a 182 for $60K that you can also fly IFR and not have the motor run out. Sucks.

Keep your day job. You can build those hours pretty quickly. You would have the perfect setup to transition to corporate pilot: A fallback job if you have a medical issue and little or no debt for when aviation does take a downturn or a disruptive technology shift.
 
As someone who has never owned an airplane, it's hard for me imagine EVER buying anything I could rent. On the other hand, my school has excellent availability and I can, especially getting into "complex" planes, walk in just about anytime and have them flip me the keys. It's nice walking away and having no worries about maintenance. If you're going to buy something, buy something that will be fun and difficult to rent...JMO.
 
I'd get a 150hp Cherokee, spend the extra on a autopilot if it doesn't have one and/or a GTN650. You can burn car gas, cary your requirements, and be cheap to operate.
 
Hey thanks for all the replies so far, appreciate the feedback and keep it coming!

Just a few comments in response to some of the posts.

1. Full time school like ATP: Yeah considered it but I'm still not sure if I want to get into the airlines (Regional flying does not seem fun) or go the corporate or 135 route. Also when looking at total costs training of ATP and the like vs a smaller flight school it seems to be at least 40% cheaper to do it outside of the ATP path and the ratings are the same in the end. I also visited a few schools like ATP and the focus seemed to be to churn people out as fast as possible, and honestly I would rather bee a good pilot at the end of my training even if it takes longer. (I did my PPL with an ex Marine aviator and really came to appreciate his standards as opposed to a get the minimum to pass that some schools seem to push) Granted it will take some more time but I understand the trade off. Other positive for not going the full time route is that I can consult a couple of days a week, so gets me some income in the door. Can live fine without it, but some is better than 0 :).

2. Auto Fuel. Yes I know the draw backs, I actually did my training in a MO Gas STC'ed C172 so am familiar with the smell. (You are right it stinks) Also I am aware of the availability concerns. Luckily I have access to a pickup with 300 Gallon clean fuel tank with fuel pump and know of a local supplier that supplies Mo Gas, so I should be covered for 80% of the time. I figure for the rest just go with AV Gas as it mixes fine.

3. Flying time: Agree finding the time between work is difficult, but as I will be part time 06:00 to 12:00 4 days a week, I should be able to manage. Luckily my significant other has been pushing me down this road so understands that I will be doing this quite heavily. Plus she actually wants to go with me on some flights (Hence the 2 person and some stuff requirements)

4. Also agree on the day job comments, I've been in IT since I was 18 and want to still keep consulting part time to keep my skills sharp in the field and IT is definitely still a fall back career. (Honestly a 6 to 8 month sabbatical to get a commercial pilot rating would look good on an IT CV if I don't go the aviation way.) Even if I was away from IT for a solid 12 months to train I'm sure I can get back into the IT sphere without any issues with a few months of study.

5. Will look at 150Hp Cherokee, haven't considered it yet, and agree with the autopilot and stable platform comments. Regardless I do want to learn to hand fly IFR initially, but would be good to know the auto is there for the future to reduce workload.

6. Will look at a share option as well, never considered that as to me finding the right "partner" would entail almost the same effort as getting married!

7. Lastly even if I don't go professional commercial (I will get the rating plus CFI anyway) I love flying and still would like to have a personal plane going forward, hence the beyond comment in my post.
 
comanche-in-air.jpg
 
And ATP Inc, it’s fast food flight instruction
 
Yep agree on the ATP, went to and did a tour of a couple of Cadet style schools in TX that partnered with AA and Envoy and honestly all I got was the feeling that they wanted to get as many people through as quickly as possible at the highest $$ cost. Did not impress really, well the facilities and the fact the owner and co owner were both driving matching Porches did impress but not for the right reasons. I would compare it to the IT equivalent of an MCSE boot camp, take 3 weeks of memorization and pass your tests at the end. Yes you passed but do you know what you are doing, no.

And nice Comanche you got there!
 
You need an Arrow. er... I mean a Bo. Yeah, a Bo.

But really, an Arrow would be a good option.
 
Get a Moonanza. But a Bonanza will be outside your price range. Do like me and get a Mooney M20-C, fuel burn is ~9gph for 140-145 knots. First year insurance can be ugly, so get that Complex Endorsement first . . . . It's gotta help.
 
I'm in IT, got private last year, have been thinking and researching the same thing. C182 could be the right answer, but I have not pulled the trigger, because I only logged 30 hours since last year instead of 100 hour which is my threshold to own a plane. Maybe you should rent for a while and see you can fly more than 100 hours/year or not.
 
If you want to use a plane to get somewhere efficiently, you want to optimize miles per gallon which can be translated into "miles per dollar".
But if you want to build *hours*, the relevant measure is gallons per hour, which can be translated into "hours per dollar". Totally different mission, for which you want something that flies slow and sips fuel gently. Getting there faster just means you don't get to log as many hours for your money.
 
Yeah Mooney 20C is on my list (Actually one of the favorites as you do seem to get a lot of airplane for the money) as I do like them and now thanks to James331 I'll start looking at Comanches as well.

Looked at C182 but price wise seems you get more airplane for your money with a M20C or Comanche. Bonanazas around 60K seem to be close to run out and will need panel upgrades, so I guess that almost rules them out.

So it seems general consensus is go for the more complex option as that is more likely for me to keep for a while instead of getting something cheaper and smaller that I will probably grow out of in a few years.

So based on the feedback the narrowed down list should be:
1. M20C
2. Piper Comanche (Will have to fly in one)
3. C182 (If I can find a descent priced one)
4. Unbelievably good deal on something out of left field once I start looking.

I'm aiming to start looking in December as will finally be back to the FT Worth TX area and can go flying again. (Current contract is outside of the US so grounded for the moment.)
 
Just flew a round trip with my brother in his Turbo Arrow: 234 nm legs @8500', 12gph and 145 kts average groundspeed. Very comfortable ride. He bought it a year ago for $70,000 and it has a Garmin 530, autopilot, and Sandel HSI. It handles just like my Cherokee but more stable in chop. You can get another 20 kts out of it if you want to burn more gas. The non-turbo versions are cheaper, but I think they top out at 135-140 kts.
 
Question on the Turbo Arrow. Does the additional complexity of the turbo add a lot to the annual/maintenance over a standard arrow?
 
Eric S said:
Yeah Mooney 20C is on my list (Actually one of the favorites as you do seem to get a lot of airplane for the money) as I do like them and now thanks to James331 I'll start looking at Comanches as well.

Looked at C182 but price wise seems you get more airplane for your money with a M20C or Comanche. Bonanazas around 60K seem to be close to run out and will need panel upgrades, so I guess that almost rules them out.

So it seems general consensus is go for the more complex option as that is more likely for me to keep for a while instead of getting something cheaper and smaller that I will probably grow out of in a few years.

So based on the feedback the narrowed down list should be:
1. M20C
2. Piper Comanche (Will have to fly in one)
3. C182 (If I can find a descent priced one)
4. Unbelievably good deal on something out of left field once I start looking.

I'm aiming to start looking in December as will finally be back to the FT Worth TX area and can go flying again. (Current contract is outside of the US so grounded for the moment.)
Click to expand...

Texas is Mooney country! The factory is in Kerrville, lots of good instructors all over. Head over to www.mooneyspace.com and join the conversation, learn what to look for, operating tips, etc.
 
Eric S said:
Question on the Turbo Arrow. Does the additional complexity of the turbo add a lot to the annual/maintenance over a standard arrow?
Click to expand...

The factory turbo is extemely simple and requires some pilot attention to avoid overboosting. The one I flew has a Merlyn wastegate that is more efficient and less prone to overboosting. Like any turbo, it requires inspection at annual, but I’ve never noticed the IA spend more than a few minutes more on a turbo inspection.

I’ve had a C210 for 10 years and the turbo has never been an issue. A friend has had his C210 for 18 years and never had an issue with the turbo. Cylinders on the other hand are a different story.

I believe that all Turbo Arrows have a Continental 6cylinder engine as well but I don’t know enough about them to know if they are subject to cylinder issues.
 
Yeah I know TX is Mooney space and have joined mooneyspace and a 20C is definitely on my list, just need to find a good one. Will start looking in December when I'm back so will see what's available.

@JScarry thanks for the info about the turbo I have seen tones of people in forums saying to avoid them, but I guess this is lack of knowledge more than anything else. (Will now do some more research on turbos)

Well so far thanks for all the advice really has given me a lot to consider and look at.
 
Yeah I see there seem to be lots of Arrows around, but it seems to be doing nothing to their pricing so far, but will see.

As for the B33 Debonair, sadly was too good to be true, got a copy of a recent pre-buy and there was a laundry list of things to fix, so would need at least another 50K to get it to a state where it would bee fully good to go. So the search goes on.
 
Eric S said:
Well, I have been solidly looking and this aircraft came up on Beech Talk.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/28272601/1960-beechcraft-33-debonair

It's a 1960 B33 Debonair
Seems to have all I would need, IFR with a 430W, ADSB Out, an autopilot and an Auto Fuel STC (Already with the airplane) and is right on the budget.

Almost seems like it's too good to be true :) Anything obvious I'm missing?
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That looks like a great option for your goals. Lots of good upgrades and maintenance on it.


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@Eric Gleason That's actually the aircraft I got the pre buy on. Sadly it's not as shiny and in good shape as the ad seems to lead on. It needs about 20K in safety issues alone and will need up to 50K to get in a truly good shape.
 
Don't overlook the overlooked Mighty Beech Sierra! (Slo-airra). Roomy, stable, built like shlt brickhouse, good viz, good club beechaeroclub, and slow. Fastest way to build time that has 3 big azz doors, and about 20k less than a faster arrow.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
 
Sinistar said:
...Regarding the auto fuel STC. Yep, sure get that Cessna 182 like a 'P' model. But I think you will regret it. You will need to buy ethanol free fuel so it will be cheaper than 100LL but more than your car gas. Then there is the issue with the fuel bladders and other software that doesn't like auto fuel (if done wrong). And finally there is storage and handling. Most rental hangars (especially city run) only allow like 5gal of fuel in the hangar other than in the vehicles. And hardly any airport sell mogas and if they do they also mark it up some. So you'd need to devise a trailer to buy it, haul it, pump it and store it somewhere else. And car gas absolutely stinks. Yep, the price is right but too many negatives IMHO...
Click to expand...

In my area right now, REC gas (ethanol free) cost = 100 LL. I bought some last night. I use REC fuel, not for a savings, but to thin down the lead in 100 LL, as my PA28 likes to lead up the spark plugs.

Besides, fuel cost, overall, is one of the cheapest expenses in owning, and one of the only expenses you have complete control over. If you need a plane with an auto fuel STC to fly to meet your "budget", then your budget is out of wack.
 
tawood said:
In my area right now, REC gas (ethanol free) cost = 100 LL. I bought some last night. I use REC fuel, not for a savings, but to thin down the lead in 100 LL, as my PA28 likes to lead up the spark plugs.

Besides, fuel cost, overall, is one of the cheapest expenses in owning, and one of the only expenses you have complete control over. If you need a plane with an auto fuel STC to fly to meet your "budget", then your budget is out of wack.
Click to expand...
Fuel is over half of my budget. I guess it depends on what you fly.

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
 
Yeah I know the draw backs abut the STC and it's not a hard requirement, but it depends on how much you fly really if I was aiming at the 50 to 100 hours it would be almost a negligible concern, but as I'm planning to do my training up to CFI in the plane which I estimate will be 300 hours plus next year it adds up.

In TX I have found a few suppliers that charge $3.89 per gallon while AVGas is $5.50 on average. (I have access to a pickup with a tank and pump so supply is not an issue)

So that's 300 hours @ conservatively 10Gph for the stuff I'm looking at so 3,000 gallons at $1.61 per gallon difference which makes a $4,830 per year savings. Now assuming that some of those hours will have fill ups away from base and with normal AV gas (Say 40% of the time) that's still $2,898 in savings per year. While I admit it's not a large wad of cash when it comes to flying it's still $241 per month. So pretty much pays for hangar rental.

And yes I trained in a C172 with MOGAS STC so am aware of the smell etc...
 
Like others have said, the 182 is a brilliant stable IFR platform. You can earn your Higher Performance endorsement, IFR & Commercial tickets. The larger cabin makes time building much more comfortable.

The Arrow is good as well, however both annuals and insurance are more expensive. Better to rent an Arrow for the complex endorsement.

Go rent a 182 with a CFI or whatever you like and try it. Your insurance company wants to see time in type for these aircraft anyway. Gives you a chance to checkout the plane type and get minimum require insurance time. The cross training also makes you a better pilot.
 
I like 182s and have flown one, just seems people want a lot of cash for them at the moment for some reason.

Yeah found that most Arrows on the market are near run out with tons of TTAF time. I would not be opposed to a run out plane, assuming the purchase price reflected that.

I actually found a Piper 78 Archer II (though I fear I would probably outgrow the plane in a few years) on another forum that is really nice inside and out and has had the avionics upgraded to what I would need. Has an ASPEN PFD, Stec AP, Digital engine monitor, digitial attitude, vacuum replaced, but with 1981 on the engine. Other than ADSB and a proper WAAS GPS it's a nice plane.

I know the engine and other bits would run about $41K installed so if the price was right it would be a consideration. (Not sure on pricing yet as the person is debating if he will sell it.) But if something like a Mooney/182/Arrow etc.. came in that condition I would look at it.
 
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