Air Force Warrants

[Velocity173]

As if someone would choose sitting at a desk doing TPS reports all day vs being in a flying only track. I think I could live missing out on those “key developmental experiences.”

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/...air-force-but-a-flying-only-track-might-help/

 

[Kenny Phillips]

They need NCO pilots, with the option of getting a degree tossed in. (I tried to join the USAF after high school, but they were picky about choosing pilots that had decent uncorrected vision, which ain't me.)

 

[Warlock]

I was a Commission officer and a Captain when I reverted to CW2 to stay involved with Aviation rather than a desk job and did so for almost five years even taking Command of an Aviation maintenance company at that rank due to operational requirements...just a rare occurrence...I then Preverted and was recommissioned three months after taking command...the joke was “ They found out my parents were married” later at the end of my career I declined promotion so I could fill a deploying XO slot and retired at that rank of Major...20 plus continuous years of flight status with no breaks other than mandatory Schools...that’s just my story...I lean toward the pure pilot warrant...

 

[EvilEagle]

They need NCO pilots, with the option of getting a degree tossed in.

Retention is the issue, not recruitment. NCO pilots would make significantly less money and have the same pull to get out. If we can’t keep Majors and LT Col’s with their salary plus a bonus, how in the world would we keep a staff or technical seargent when the airlines are offering them the same thing?

NCO pilots will actually make the retention problem worse, not to mention the complications of rank vs experience. (Experienced E-5 instructor pilot flying with inexperienced O-4 pilot).

There are plenty of ways to get a degree after joining the USAF. Having done a masters degree while being a line pilot, I can tell you that there’s definitely not enough time to finish an undergrad degree while also flying.

 

[Eric Gleason]

Just curious: how many NCOs get a degree and then remain NCOs?

Don't all the lucrative flying jobs require a degree? I'm wondering if there really would be that much incentive for NCO pilots to leave the service.

Plus, I gotta believe the the draw of flying interesting and challenging missions in awesome planes would be stronger than the draw of driving the bus in a volatile job market for an awful lot of pilots, if the job were mostly flying.

 

[EvilEagle]

Just curious: how many NCOs get a degree and then remain NCOs?

Don't all the lucrative flying jobs require a degree? I'm wondering if there really would be that much incentive for NCO pilots to leave the service.

Plus, I gotta believe the the draw of flying interesting and challenging missions in awesome planes would be stronger than the draw of driving the bus in a volatile job market for an awful lot of pilots, if the job were mostly flying.

As a pilot who’s been flying those “interesting and challenging missions in awesome planes” I can tell you that it’s not the flying that makes us leave. The QOL in the military is the lowest I’ve seen in my almost 19 years of service. Our ops tempo has been ludacris for the last 15 years and there’s been no real moves made to change it. We are still flying older stuff every year, jets are getting run into the ground, we have no support staff so each member is also a finance person, logistics person, personellist, etc. The flying is amazing, but after 10+ years of it, its not enough to keep the majority of people. Some stay because they want to be Generals, some don’t want to try something new and some are still motivated for the flying or patriotism or other excellent personal reasons. The majority are not staying, and they all say the same thing- its really not about the money, its about the QOL. The money offered by the airlines will never be matched by the services, the 16 days a month at home will never be matched either. The USAF needs a QOL overhaul in the worst way, putting NCO’s or Warrent Officers in cockpits is a bandaid on an arterial wound.

If the “job were mostly flying” that might change things, but it’s just a start.

 

[EvilEagle]

Just curious: how many NCOs get a degree and then remain NCOs?

More than I thought. We have a very highly educated enlisted force. Many with multiple secondary degrees as well.

 

[Eric Gleason]

Ben, thanks for the feedback. Most of what I've heard and read were complaints about the job being mostly TPS reports and very little flying, but I hadn't realized the QOL issues were so substantial. I recall reading (I think her on PoA, but maybe another board) a story from a fighter pilot who was talking to his dad, a former fighter pilot. Dad said something like "you must be flying 3-4 times a week to stay current," and the son said it was more like once a week, twice in a good week.

I can almost afford that ops tempo in my club planes

 

[TCABM]

Just curious: how many NCOs get a degree and then remain NCOs?

From USAF demographics page:

ENLISTED ACADEMIC EDUCATION
58.8% completed some college
24.9% have associate's degrees
8.8% have bachelor's degrees
1.8% have master's degree
0.020% have professional degrees

Considering there’s about 260K enlisted, that is roughly 23K with a bachelors. The spring OTS selection board selected 288 enlisted for OTS.

That’s about a 1% conversion rate.

In my career I had more airmen separate got to ROTC and commission then go to OTS. The percentage was still pretty small though.

 

[Timbeck2]

Just curious: how many NCOs get a degree and then remain NCOs?

<---- here's one. There was some talk about making the controllers warrant officers early on but it never happened. They took the bonus away and now with all the deployments and low manning not to mention the FAA hiring, we can't keep good people in. I can't say that I blame them.

 

[mscard88]

Just curious: how many NCOs get a degree and then remain NCOs?

.

More than I thought. We have a very highly educated enlisted force. Many with multiple secondary degrees as well.

I got my BS and stayed enlisted until my retirement at 20 years. Even started on my MBA . I could have been commissioned and stayed in my field, air traffic control, but I believe I would have had to serve 10 years as a commissioned officer (this was in 1986) to retire as an officer. So I was looking at a 25-26 year USAF career and I wanted to fly when I retired so I remained enlisted. Same with promotion. I would have made E8 but then I figured that would take me to 23 years. Worked out as I got on with a regional airline after retirement and flew there for 24 years.

Eagle is correct, the Air Force encourages their members to advance their education. Many of my coworkers had a degree and many went and got commissioned. The Air Force even has a "community college" that one can get an AAS degree in their field. I got mine in Air Traffic Control.

 

[mscard88]

<---- here's one. There was some talk about making the controllers warrant officers early on but it never happened. They took the bonus away and now with all the deployments and low manning not to mention the FAA hiring, we can't keep good people in. I can't say that I blame them.

He'll Tim they were talking warrants back in the 70s when I cross trained into ATC. Used to get "pro pay", which back then varied between $30-90 extra monthly, but they took that away too.

 

[hindsight2020]

Just curious: how many NCOs get a degree and then remain NCOs?

Don't all the lucrative flying jobs require a degree? I'm wondering if there really would be that much incentive for NCO pilots to leave the service.

Plus, I gotta believe the the draw of flying interesting and challenging missions in awesome planes would be stronger than the draw of driving the bus in a volatile job market for an awful lot of pilots, if the job were mostly flying.

I don't think you recognize the income delta between a warrant/NCOs and commissioned field grade officer. It's not just that, the retirement piece also gets affected. As @EvilEagle has already explained, the incentive for the NCO and warrants to exit for the major airlines (getting a degree online in potato these days is not a big hurdle) once they attain military pilot training and experience is much greater than commissioned officers. This would mean an even bigger retention mess for the AF when the ADSC expires. And nobody, not even warrants, would ever sign a 20 year ADSC in significant numbers. THAT would create a recruitment crisis! LOL

As to the " but but but fly-only..." retort. The reality of fly-only life is that it's largely BS, even in Army aviation. There's plenty of guano to shovel these days, might as well be doing it for FGO money. The only reason army warrants put up with the differential is because there's no airline track of consequence for rotorheads, and there IS a significant difference in flying between them and their commissioned counters. No such delta exists within commissioned flyers and their supervisors in the AF by contrast. It's feast or famine for everybody in the AF flyer side of the house.

As much crap as I give the sycophants in the puzzle palace, I have it on good authority they actually do recognize the merit behind not entertaining the warrant track. They may be callous when it comes to interacting with their "human property", but they're not ignorant of the dynamics that we're describing to you on here. Which is why the warrant thing isn't going anywhere imo.

 

[Timbeck2]

He'll Tim they were talking warrants back in the 70s when I cross trained into ATC. Used to get "pro pay", which back then varied between $30-90 extra monthly, but they took that away too.

They get SDAP which is extra pay for being a watch supervisor. When I wore the uniform it varied depending on on your rank and level. Brand new SSgt 7 levels got $125 extra a month. Me as a MSgt 9 level got $325 extra. Now they're talking about giving trainers SDAP which would include A1Cs and SrA.

 

[mscard88]

They get SDAP which is extra pay for being a watch supervisor. When I wore the uniform it varied depending on on your rank and level. Brand new SSgt 7 levels got $125 extra a month. Me as a MSgt 9 level got $325 extra. Now they're talking about giving trainers SDAP which would include A1Cs and SrA.

I got nuthin' when I was in.

 

[Velocity173]

I don't think you recognize the income delta between a warrant/NCOs and commissioned field grade officer. It's not just that, the retirement piece also gets affected. As @EvilEagle has already explained, the incentive for the NCO and warrants to exit for the major airlines (getting a degree online in potato these days is not a big hurdle) once they attain military pilot training and experience is much greater than commissioned officers. This would mean an even bigger retention mess for the AF when the ADSC expires. And nobody, not even warrants, would ever sign a 20 year ADSC in significant numbers. THAT would create a recruitment crisis! LOL

As to the " but but but fly-only..." retort. The reality of fly-only life is that it's largely BS, even in Army aviation. There's plenty of guano to shovel these days, might as well be doing it for FGO money. The only reason army warrants put up with the differential is because there's no airline track of consequence for rotorheads, and there IS a significant difference in flying between them and their commissioned counters. No such delta exists within commissioned flyers and their supervisors in the AF by contrast. It's feast or famine for everybody in the AF flyer side of the house.

As much crap as I give the sycophants in the puzzle palace, I have it on good authority they actually do recognize the merit behind not entertaining the warrant track. They may be callous when it comes to interacting with their "human property", but they're not ignorant of the dynamics that we're describing to you on here. Which is why the warrant thing isn't going anywhere imo.

Well there is an airline track for rotor warrants but it begins with regionals. The fixed wing dudes can write their own ticket to the majors though. Friend of mine is going from UC-35s to United.

Definitely not a “flying club” in the Army like it used to be for warrants. Senior leadership is now the former LTs-CPTs that got screwed out of PC because warrants were flying their butts off. Now, a lot more of commissioned tasks are getting put on warrant backs. Only gonna make matters worse for the Army though. Warrants are now seeing the rotor to airline grass is greener path and will start leaving in droves. No promised bonus is going to make up for additional duty crap and keep them Army Strong.

 

[Timbeck2]

As a cross trainee I was always a day late and a dollar short on reenlistment bonuses. I never got one. They've revised the promotion process now so that there no longer focus on time in grade or time in service. When I cross trained as a SSgt, I had to make over 100% on both tests to get promoted to Tech because there were so many SSgts with 18-19 years time in service. Also the promotion rate for controllers was really low because the bonus kept them in. Now with no bonus for example, they promoted 51% to SSgt this time around. Unheard of in my day.

 

[hindsight2020]

Well there is an airline track for rotor warrants but it begins with regionals. The fixed wing dudes can write their own ticket to the majors though. Friend of mine is going from UC-35s to United.

Definitely not a “flying club” in the Army like it used to be for warrants. Senior leadership is now the former LTs-CPTs that got screwed out of PC because warrants were flying their butts off. Now, a lot more of commissioned tasks are getting put on warrant backs. Only gonna make matters worse for the Army though. Warrants are now seeing the rotor to airline grass is greener path and will start leaving in droves. No promised bonus is going to make up for additional duty crap and keep them Army Strong.

but but but warrant fly-only.....I'm being facetious of course.

Thank you for proving our point wrt to the warrant red herring. You think warrants would stay in if their rotor experience got them major airline qualifications? The ARMY would have to beat people away with riot gear out the recruitment offices LOL. I know Army rotor guys are a cohesive bunch and their form of flying is popular with kids these days because of the nature of our adversaries immediately after 9/11, but they would behave in no different way as AF pilots, if they had that avenue available to them. I argue their retention would be worse than commissioned AF guys by virtue of the greater grade + retirement pay delta, dispelling the notion soldiers are inherently more patriotic than Airmen by virtue of these retention trends.

 

[Velocity173]

but but but warrant fly-only.....I'm being facetious of course.

Thank you for proving our point wrt to the warrant red herring. You think warrants would stay in if their rotor experience got them major airline qualifications? The ARMY would have to beat people away with riot gear out the recruitment offices LOL. I know Army rotor guys are a cohesive bunch and their form of flying is popular with kids these days because of the nature of our adversaries immediately after 9/11, but they would behave in no different way as AF pilots, if they had that avenue available to them. I argue their retention would be worse than commissioned AF guys by virtue of the greater grade + retirement pay delta, dispelling the notion soldiers are inherently more patriotic than Airmen by virtue of these retention trends.

I’m kinda surprised that so many of my Army buds look at the airlines as something they’ve always dreamt of doing. Of course, nothing wrong with that but I’m a bit confused as to why they went Army if their ultimate goal was the airlines??? Generally another service with a plethora of fixed wing aircraft would be the most logical path. But, I guess it doesn’t matter where you start as long as you’re content with where you end up.

For me, military life was always about service first, ratings second. Yes, I put up with the op tempo, the BS additional duties, Computer EX, gunnery, CMTC, etc., etc. While a bonus (like other branches) would have been nice, I signed up with no such promise and accepted that. Still, as a warrant it wasn’t bad as flying goes. I averaged around 330 hrs a year while in. Far better life than commissioned in the Army. No way I’d ever recommend someone to go that route...unless they were looking at going 160th, Flight Concepts or XP.

Obviously the grind does get old and one starts thinking about family QOL. At some point we all gotta “pull the handle” and get back to living the good life. Whether it’s airlines or slaving as an EMS PC12 driver, life is much mo better.

 

[Hacker]

They need NCO pilots

Sure, doing the same jobs for only half price!

As Evil said, the issue isn't recruiting new pilots, it is retaining experienced ones. NCOs and Warrant Officers do nothing to fix the reasons why current aviators run for the doors when their commitments are up.

The AF needs to have an honest look in the mirror and actually take care of the complaints in leadership and mission focus if they want to retain experienced professionals in the ranks.

But...I'm sure they'll continue to focus on irrelevant low-hanging fruit instead.

 

[Eric Gleason]

I don't think you recognize the income delta between a warrant/NCOs and commissioned field grade officer. It's not just that, the retirement piece also gets affected. As @EvilEagle has already explained, the incentive for the NCO and warrants to exit for the major airlines (getting a degree online in potato these days is not a big hurdle) once they attain military pilot training and experience is much greater than commissioned officers.

I do realize the big disparity in income. Have lots of acquaintances in the military, both commissioned and enlisted. When I was being recruited (did 1 year of ROTC before realizing that me and the Air Force weren't a good match), the impression I was given was that most NCOs who got a 4 year degree (or higher) either went to OTS or got out. Maybe that was more true then than it is now. Maybe I got the wrong impression.

I was genuinely curious if there were lucrative aviation careers to be had without a bachelor's degree, and how that would relate to potentially having NCO pilots. I think we've covered that there are still significant disincentives to being a pilot in the military, but I'm still unsure what the potential civilian job market looks like without a degree. I'm pretty sure that it's required for all the majors and most of the regionals, isn't it?

 

[hindsight2020]

I do realize the big disparity in income. Have lots of acquaintances in the military, both commissioned and enlisted. When I was being recruited (did 1 year of ROTC before realizing that me and the Air Force weren't a good match), the impression I was given was that most NCOs who got a 4 year degree (or higher) either went to OTS or got out. Maybe that was more true then than it is now. Maybe I got the wrong impression.

I was genuinely curious if there were lucrative aviation careers to be had without a bachelor's degree, and how that would relate to potentially having NCO pilots. I think we've covered that there are still significant disincentives to being a pilot in the military, but I'm still unsure what the potential civilian job market looks like without a degree. I'm pretty sure that it's required for all the majors and most of the regionals, isn't it?

For pilots, not having a degree merely means you largely cut yourself off the major airline track, as regionals largely don't require them. good bad or indifferent that's the stance major airlines have regarding bachelor degree completion. It is certainly not the only way to attain six figure income in professional "pyleting" , but by volume, major airlines are the most likely one. The delta income is significant versus avenues that don't require degrees. Part 91/135 is more fickle than 121 imo, and that is a statement considering 121 is not the epitome of career income continuity.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Just curious: how many NCOs get a degree and then remain NCOs?

In the Navy, lots.

 

[Fearless Tower]

So how does the Warrant Officer program work in the AF?

Are warrants 100% home grown from senior enlisted ranks like the Navy, or do they take people off the street and put warrant bars on them line the Army?

 

[X3 Skier]

Just curious: how many NCOs get a degree and then remain NCOs?

One of the sharpest guys I worked with in my 32.5 years in USAF Aircraft Development was a NCO Engine Maintainer who also had an Associate degree in Engineering. After he retired as a Top 3 (I think as a SMSGT), he went to Florida State and graduated as a Mechanical Engineer. I believe he’s still at Pratt & Whitney.

Cheers

 

[Tarheelpilot]

More than I thought. We have a very highly educated enlisted force. Many with multiple secondary degrees as well.

I know two enlisted service personnel with PhDs. Both work in their field of study in the ... Army. I’m sure they are not the norm but they aren’t the only ones either.

 

[Timbeck2]

So how does the Warrant Officer program work in the AF?

Are warrants 100% home grown from senior enlisted ranks like the Navy, or do they take people off the street and put warrant bars on them line the Army?

The Air Force doesn't currently have a WO program.

 

[Velocity173]

Also just to clarify, it’s not an NCO proposal but a WO flying program proposal.

 

[hindsight2020]

Also just to clarify, it’s not an NCO proposal but a WO flying program proposal.

Indeed. But a distinction without difference wrt the underlying root cause nonetheless, afaic.

 

[mscard88]

The Air Force doesn't currently have a WO program.

I think the last AF Warrant Officer retired in 1980. When the new enlisted grades of E8 & E9 were created in late 50s, AF decided these grades could function in place of Warrants, and stopped Warrants in '.59.

 

[woodchucker]

There are plenty of ways to get a degree after joining the USAF. Having done a masters degree while being a line pilot, I can tell you that there’s definitely not enough time to finish an undergrad degree while also flying.

I couldn’t imagine getting a masters degree either. I was in the Navy, and best I could manage was a couple of classes over a couple of years. But that was back in the ‘90s. Maybe things are a bit more user friendly now?

 

[Landing Fees]

They need NCO pilots, with the option of getting a degree tossed in. (I tried to join the USAF after high school, but they were picky about choosing pilots that had decent uncorrected vision, which ain't me.)

It was only a matter of time till somebody said NCOs should be pilots. If only we gave the degrees and didn't make them work for it. Why don't we just make NCOs generals, I mean after all they are the "Backbone of the Army" or whatever ribbon they are giving them these days to come to work to be under-appreciated and underpaid.

 

[Velocity173]

Indeed. But a distinction without difference wrt the underlying root cause nonetheless, afaic.

I agree, I won’t solve their pilot shortage in the upper ranks. All it would do would be a temporary bandaid in the junior ranks.

I was just giving distinction between the 2 because of the logistics involved in starting up a WO program vs NCO. If they tried an NCO program, they would be able to pull from an existing pool of applicants and send them straight to flight school. Most likely creating a shortage in the NCO community though.

With a WO program, the AF would have to create a candidate school with all the associated red tape involved. Even though the article claims no additional duties and leadership schools, that’s BS. I guarantee they’d have a similar setup as the Army.

Either way, they won’t be able to fill the ranks of AF upper management. From what I’ve seen, almost all the warrants that come from off the street, don’t stay passed their initial obligation. They joined with no intention of staying til retirement. They signed up to get some ratings to be used for civilian employment. Nothing wrong with that but it wouldn’t help the AF in the long run if they implemented a WO program.

 

[BillTIZ]

Not a military pilot, wear glasses, USAF Master Navigator. 15 years in the cockpit, last 5 were in a non-flying billet, in a flight test community, but I still had opportunities to keep flying. Retired now, with 44 years civilian flying and still flying. Retired Major. There was talk of Warrant Officer navigators, but the word was, as long as nukes were on board it will be an officer billet.

 

[EvilEagle]

I couldn’t imagine getting a masters degree either. I was in the Navy, and best I could manage was a couple of classes over a couple of years. But that was back in the ‘90s. Maybe things are a bit more user friendly now?

If by user friendly you mean doing your Masters after work and on the weekends apart from your 70 hour work week then yeah... it's more user friendly.

I knocked a bunch of mine out on deployments... no family there so that's the only time I ever found that was even in the realm of convenient.

 

[AWACSEng]

If by user friendly you mean doing your Masters after work and on the weekends apart from your 70 hour work week then yeah... it's more user friendly.

I knocked a bunch of mine out on deployments... no family there so that's the only time I ever found that was even in the realm of convenient.

The establishment of online education was what enabled me to finish my undergrad in a reasonable amount of time. Of course, it was helpful being in AMC and being able to knock out assignments while the other FE babysat the panel for a few hours while at cruise, and then submitting said assignments once internet could be established in whatever billeting we ended up in. In the prior 12 years, I completed exactly 1 in-person class.

On the topic of NCO/WO/Fill-in-the-blank pilots in the Air Force. It's been said several times by those before (@hindsight2020 @Hacker @EvilEagle ), but that would not fix the overall culture and QOL issues big blue has chosen to ignore over my nearly 2 decades of being AD. This is not 1942, we don't have 100,000 airplanes needing crews, and therefore we don't need flying sergeants to fill those seats. As has been said, USAF does not have a recruiting problem, but a retention one.

As a background on me, I spent my first 4 years turning wrenches, and the last 14 as a Flight Engineer. If given the opportunity to move to the right seat as an NCO, I can say with nearly 99% certainty that I would not have stayed as long as I have. As it is, I am in an assignment that puts a relatively nice qweep umbrella over me, and will continue serving until I feel I am in the best possible position to succeed professionally and personally in the civilian world. Without that umbrella, I would be counting the minutes until my 20yr retirement.

Now, with all of that said, do I think NCO pilots are the answer? Nope. WOs? Nope. Do I wish there was a magical fix that would have prevented some of the best pilots and leaders I have met to bail the minute they could? Yep. The system is broken and is currently only surviving on the backs of those that have too much pride to fail, and those that are consumers of the blue corporate kool-aid. Neither of which are sustainable tactics without serious changes.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

It was only a matter of time till somebody said NCOs should be pilots. If only we gave the degrees and didn't make them work for it. Why don't we just make NCOs generals, I mean after all they are the "Backbone of the Army" or whatever ribbon they are giving them these days to come to work to be under-appreciated and underpaid.

Because NCOs are the ones running the asylum.

 

[James331]

Degrees are kinda becoming a joke