Air Conditioner value

brien23

brien23

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Brien
Piper PA-28-161 air conditioner just how much more value does it add to the plane or is it just a great selling item to have. If you are in the southern states you might value it more than the northern states, how important is air condition in a plane in the south.
 
I’d love one, but I’m not willing to give up the space and useful load required. So for me it’s not a plus.
 
I ripped that out of my 140 as soon as I could

so I guess you can put me down as someone who thinks the AC doesn’t add value

edit: cherokee 140
 
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Based at Whidbey, I don’t see any value. Even when I was in the Deep South, MS, I got by fine without. Yeah, there’s often the ‘significant other’ factor.

I don’t know the weight savings. My mitigation techniques, hydrate, wear shorts, keep the airflow, etc..
 
So if you want to remove the air conditioner from a plane how much of it has to be removed. In a PA-28-161 the weight is listed as 60 lbs do you have to remove all of it and return the plane to the original condition. Buy another alternator mount to the engine new fly wheel one belt cut in it, remove and patch all exterior holes in the airframe pull out the plumbing replace the overhead plastic with original without air plastic, when does it end.
 
Mongoose Aviator said:
@Bob Noel - Did you remove an AC from a Cherokee?
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yes. PA-28-140.

Initially (under the supervision of an IA) I removed the condensor and the compresser. We secured the door shut.

Later, during an engine overhaul, we changed the alternator (Penn Yan was nice enough to give me the appropriate ring gear) - putting in a new alternator and in the "correct" position. And removed EVERYTHING associated with the AC that I could.

Because of all the work that was done at the same time (windshield, new cables, etc etc etc), I had the airplaned weighed.
 
My PA28-180 came from the factory with air conditioning. Its original home was on the Gulf coast.

At some point, it was sold and ended up in MInnesota. During that time, the a/c was partially removed--everything firewall forward. The evaporator door motor was also removed and the evap door riveted shut (with the evap still in place!). Coolant lines running along the belly from the evap to the firewall were also still in place, and capped at the ends with (at least some) fluid left inside.

After I bought it (and returned it to the Gulf coast), I eventually had the remaining a/c equipment removed. On hot days I wish I had some a/c in the plane, but looking back through the logs at the time, effort, and money spent trying to keep the a/c operational, I understand why it was removed.

A/C was not on the list of requirements when I shopped for my plane, and now that I've flown one in the south without a/c, I know I can live without it. Back when I bought my plane and didn't know better, if I was looking at two otherwise equivalent planes but one had a/c, I might have picked that one. I might also have ultimately regretted it (as you may now be doing, based on your other post).
 
Mine has the fan and cabin air ducting in place. Everything else is gone. Alternator was not relocated and still has the stupid thin belt. There is a patch to cover the hole in the engine baffling where the compressor used to be. Fan does a reasonable job of blowing air around the cabin for some cooling.
 
Removal of all or some of it, did anyone do a 337 for the removal or update the equipment list or weight and balance. If you have to do a 337 on a door Steward one would think removing 60 lbs of equipment and patching holes in the airframe would require one.
 
brien23 said:
Removal of all or some of it, did anyone do a 337 for the removal or update the equipment list or weight and balance. If you have to do a 337 on a door Steward one would think removing 60 lbs of equipment and patching holes in the airframe would require one.
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yes. I did a 337 for the removal (also weighed the plane)
 
I have come to the conclusion that I won't buy another plane in Florida without Air Conditioning.
But it would have to be a plane that has the weight allowance to maintain adequate W&B.
I probably wouldn't pay the $30k+ (or more) to have it installed, but it would certainly add at least $15k to the value of a considered purchase.

I'm tired of arriving at places sopping wet, stinky and dehydrated.
 
brien23 said:
So if you want to remove the air conditioner from a plane how much of it has to be removed.
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If there are no formal restoration/removal instructions or you plan the sell the entire kit you can technically remove only as much as you want of the AC install and call it good. You'll need to itemize the removed items on the equipment list and compute a new EWB. Same process is used for avionics as well where the guidance allows you to leave harnesses and racks installed even though the system is considered "removed."
brien23 said:
If you have to do a 337 on a door Steward one would think removing 60 lbs of equipment and patching holes in the airframe would require one.
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Not really. If the AC was installed under an STC, then yes a 337 would be needed if the original installation was considered a major alteration. However, if the STC had legit restoration instructions as part of the data package then in some cases a removal 337 would not be needed. Now if the AC was installed under an OEM aircraft installation, i.e., aircraft specification, the AC system does not meet the definition of a major alteration. So no 337 going in or coming out unless part of the removal created a new major alteration or repair scenario and required a 337 for that specific task.

FYI: not all door Steward installs are considered a major alteration so no 337 needed. But some are.
 
I'm usually already sweaty by the time the prop starts spinning here in Tampa in the summer and after the flight just simply stowing plane into the hangar I'm soaked in sweat. That's why I always pack at least a spare shirt in my flight bag.
 
brien23 said:
Piper PA-28-161 air conditioner just how much more value does it add to the plane or is it just a great selling item to have. If you are in the southern states you might value it more than the northern states, how important is air condition in a plane in the south.
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It's damn nice to have in Texas. I would repair it, there are plenty of buyers in the south and southwest that want the option.
 
Now that the aviation community VARMA approval, I wonder if anyone has pursued this approval process to repair older AC units with off the shelf and non PMA parts.

I have the real freon AC from Arctic and love it. Sad to see they stopped manufacturing it. They’re only doing the ice coolers now.
 
Fracpilot said:
Now that the aviation community VARMA approval, I wonder if anyone has pursued this approval process to repair older AC units with off the shelf and non PMA parts.
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FYI: there is a path to do that now. However, it takes a mechanic who knows the rules and an owner that wants to pay/pursue it. As I understand VARMA, which is an acceptance and not approval process, will streamline this existing path but will still require the installer to take care of the installation requirements.
 
I live in NE Texas. Hot and humid. Still, even in the worst heat in the summer, you can find 60 degree air at 8-10,000 feet. You just have to stay alive until you get there.

I guess if you fly low (and I know some guys who for some reason think 2500' is a good cruising altitude) I guess you fly at dawn or in the evening in July and August.
 
Stephen Shore said:
I live in NE Texas. Hot and humid. Still, even in the worst heat in the summer, you can find 60 degree air at 8-10,000 feet. You just have to stay alive until you get there.

I guess if you fly low (and I know some guys who for some reason think 2500' is a good cruising altitude) I guess you fly at dawn or in the evening in July and August.
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Living under class Bravo means it will be close to an hour in the cockpit before you get to 8k altitude (with taxi, fly out from under bravo and then climb at a few hundred feet a minute)..
Also forget to ever use FF or IFR for coming back as the controllers will put you below 8k far far away.
 
Stephen Shore said:
I live in NE Texas. Hot and humid. Still, even in the worst heat in the summer, you can find 60 degree air at 8-10,000 feet. You just have to stay alive until you get there.

I guess if you fly low (and I know some guys who for some reason think 2500' is a good cruising altitude) I guess you fly at dawn or in the evening in July and August.
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If I'm going somewhere else in Florida (which is most of my flying), by time I get to 8k it is about time to descend, thus most of my time is below 8k. And if I'm going further, even if the outside temp is low, when you are above the clouds and the sun is beating down on your enclosed metal and Plexiglas tube with no insulation, it is going to get hot. And oftentimes, the winds at those altitudes are prohibitive. I flew to Texas last year. The headwinds at 10k were greater than 30kts, BOTH WAYS. How many dogs or children die in cars parked in the sun with their windows rolled up, even in cool weather.

Sure. If I lived in Michigan, AC would have little value for me. But down here, it is practically a necessity if you fly a lot, especially in the warmer months (ie, March through October). November through February; yeah, my Jet Shades are usually sufficient.
 
TimRF79 said:
Living under class Bravo means it will be close to an hour in the cockpit before you get to 8k altitude (with taxi, fly out from under bravo and then climb at a few hundred feet a minute)..
Also forget to ever use FF or IFR for coming back as the controllers will put you below 8k far far away.
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I live under the Class B in Houston, and often get routed through the I-10 corridor. Even in the heat of the summer, once I'm up to 2000-3000' and there's a breeze through the vents, it's tolerable. Most of my flying is to go somewhere, though, so I'm usually leaving in the morning and coming back in the evening, so that helps. It's not fun on the ground in the heat of the day in the summertime, but even that's tolerable once the engine's started; the worst part is the few minutes between when the door and window get closed right before takeoff, until you're in the air with a little bit of altitude.
 
I would want to keep the AC if my plane had it. I would repair it also if it needed it. But I can help myself and might not be a affordable option for some?
So to me the plane is worth more with AC.
 
In my cherokee 140, one reason for the AC not being particularly useful is that when it's hot enough to be almost essential, it's also hot enough that the performance of the airplane is seriously lacking. Plus the extra ~60 pounds puts a huge dent in the useful load of the cherokee 140. (and then the constant maintenance....)

The OP's warrior would be better, but not by much.
 
You don't need to climb to 8K to get cool. Lapse rate is 5.4 degrees F per 1K altitude. Given average summer temp of 95 F, climbing to 4K should get you to OAT around 75 F. That plus a few shades and vents should make it reasonably comfortable.

I don't fully understand the meteorology, but I think you get a nice bump in lapse rate when you go above the dew point, which is at the cloud bases. Bases are typically around 3K in Florida in the summer.
 
Ed Haywood said:
You don't need to climb to 8K to get cool. Lapse rate is 5.4 degrees F per 1K altitude. Given average summer temp of 95 F, climbing to 4K should get you to OAT around 75 F. That plus a few shades and vents should make it reasonably comfortable.

I don't fully understand the meteorology, but I think you get a nice bump in lapse rate when you go above the dew point, which is at the cloud bases. Bases are typically around 3K in Florida in the summer.
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Huh??

The standard lapse rate is 3.5 deg F or 2 deg C per 1000 feet up to FL360. Not sure how you came up with 5.4F/1000.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/06_phak_ch4.pdf
 
Fracpilot said:
Now that the aviation community VARMA approval, I wonder if anyone has pursued this approval process to repair older AC units with off the shelf and non PMA parts.

I have the real freon AC from Arctic and love it. Sad to see they stopped manufacturing it. They’re only doing the ice coolers now.
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Was there ever a reason given why they stopped with the freon ones?
 
As an instructor on the Gulf Coast, I'd give a lot of things for a/c during the summer. Working on my own ice cooler now that will hopefully help some, but real a/c would be amazing.
 
Sierra_Hotel said:
Was there ever a reason given why they stopped with the freon ones?
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I know when I was acquiring mine during Covid, they had a lot of supply issues with the circuit board that delayed them sending it to me. I then had to send it back for a leak in the freon. I have not emailed or called since they repaired it nor to inquire why the Freon version isn’t for sale anymore. I know they’re very slow to reply when I was dealing with them.

After the repair, I can say it was the best $4600 spent living in south TX. I start the engines, start the AC and close the doors on the hottest day. It works that good.
 
Ed Haywood said:
You don't need to climb to 8K to get cool. Lapse rate is 5.4 degrees F per 1K altitude. Given average summer temp of 95 F, climbing to 4K should get you to OAT around 75 F. That plus a few shades and vents should make it reasonably comfortable.

I don't fully understand the meteorology, but I think you get a nice bump in lapse rate when you go above the dew point, which is at the cloud bases. Bases are typically around 3K in Florida in the summer.
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I looked at my most recent track, in which i departed south to get out from under Class B and then climbed to 5.5k feet.
It took 20minutes of flight time, plus 10min on ground for run-up taxi etc... That is 30min to 5.5k ft. The climb from 3k to 5.5 was 6 minutes, hence we can add 6minutes to get to 8k (maybe more).
Which means I am in a hot plane getting cooked alive for ~40min before I get comfy.
And then another ~40min uncomfortable before I can land....
 
TimRF79 said:
I looked at my most recent track, in which i departed south to get out from under Class B and then climbed to 5.5k feet.
It took 20minutes of flight time, plus 10min on ground for run-up taxi etc... That is 30min to 5.5k ft. The climb from 3k to 5.5 was 6 minutes, hence we can add 6minutes to get to 8k (maybe more).
Which means I am in a hot plane getting cooked alive for ~40min before I get comfy.
And then another ~40min uncomfortable before I can land....
Click to expand...

Well then obviously AC would have more value for you.
 
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