Agonizing decision whether to upgrade panel in Cherokee 140/160

Julian Doby

Julian Doby

Filing Flight Plan
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Julian Doby
I bought a Cherokee 140/160 in November with an old school panel - King KY 97A radio, old Transponder, Terra GTN 960 - inop, Apollo II Morrow Loran, Audio selector. It does have UAvionix tail beacon ADSB out, which is nice. I want to start my instrument as soon as possible, but I would have to rent an IFR plane for now, unless I spend the cash on avionics.

My thoughts would be to add a Garmin 355 - extra radios and GPS, Ps Engineering PMA 6000B audio panel, Garmin GTX 327 Transponder, and a Garmin 106A CDI. Those items will cost about $10,500 and I'm expecting at least $5,000 labor for the install, so $15,500. The only thing I'm skimping on is not adding the G5s. Renting a plane would probably run me $10,000 over the training, so I feel like I'd be better off putting the money into my plane. However, I know myself and will probably want to upgrade planes in the not too distant future. I'm not sure that I will get my money back out of the plane. Any thoughts from someone who may have upgraded panels recently?
 
I think your labor guess is low. Usually it's pretty close to the value of the equipment

If you're wanting to start your ir quickly, you need to consider that hardware is 3-6 months lead time, and avionics shops are booked out 6mo-2 years.

Also consider that flying your own plane isn't free. If you calculate what it truly costs to fly your own plane the rental will look more reasonable.

Avionics usually add about half their installed cost to the airplanes value as a route of thumb. Maybe a bit higher in your case as the existing panel is so dated. It would make your airplane much more usable. Depending on your time horizon for selling, it might make sense. Using modern avionics, even vfr, makes flying easier & more fun, but if you bought this plane just to build hours and dump, it probably doesn't make financial sense.
 
Make your decision first on where to spend your money. Consider, after you get your IFR, will you be happy with the current state of your airplane, if the decision is to rent? Can you afford to rent now and upgrade later, or is it one or the other?

If you decide to upgrade, look to install what is available now, so you can in fact get working on your Instrument Rating. I am going through that exact upgrade process, so instead of a 355 or 375 to combine boxes (August availability at best) I am putting in a 175 and separate radio and transponder (in stock).

I also think your labor estimate is low. I am lucky in that I am experimental and have done this to a couple airplanes already, so just my labor and the use of cool (sometimes costly) tools already in hand. But maybe you can do some owner assist if you have basic mechanical and / or wiring skills and the time to contribute. I have installed some avionics in certified aircraft under the supervision of an IA (not an avionics shop).
 
I don't see the benefit of having an IFR ticket if your airplane isn't capable.
 
Oh, the agony!

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Doesn't sound like you need a transponder or audio panel. Why not just do the GPS and CDI? If you've owned the plane for a while and are confident in its mechanical shape then I would invest in it. Just about anything on the market right now that's decent is over priced and anything with even a believable price has probably been neglected.
 
somorris said:
I would sell the Cherokee now and get a plane you will be happy with for the long haul. Then train in that.
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otoh - you might like the simple light aircraft like the 140.

I bought a cherokee 140, but wanted a bigger faster airplane.

After a few years, my airplane was down for a few months and I borrowed a friend's cheroke 180. I realized I liked the lighter controls of the 140. I realized I liked my 140.
 
It doesn’t sound like you’re starting with any functional NAV radios? The GNC355 is only going to get you partway to an airplane that could serve as an instrument training airplane if that is true.

I just finished a similar panel in an airplane with performance similar to a cherokee 140. We did the GNC355 and moved the Narco MK12D to the Com2 position. That gave us GPS, VOR, and Localizer capabilities. I also added a GTX330 and pulled the old Narco transponder simply because we had it sitting around and it would pave the way to a simple/cheap ADSB out solution that would allow us to ditch the sky beacon that was previously installed.

Materials for installing the 355 and transponder were probably $1k? I did the labor but I’d be very surprised if I could have put enough time into the panel to charge $5k. That’s not to say that other or most shops would charge more or less than your $5k estimate however.

Avionics lead times are a real problem. Some things are getting better and some worse from what I’m hearing. At least the 355 is over the counter so hopefully you can just shop around and find a vendor that has one.

My opinion would be to spend the money and time to upgrade your plane if you plan to keep it for even a short period of time. What’s the point in renting an airplane to do instrument training in if you’re going to go back to an airplane that you can’t realistically fly instruments in?
 
Julian Doby said:
I bought a Cherokee 140/160 in November with an old school panel - King KY 97A radio, old Transponder, Terra GTN 960 - inop, Apollo II Morrow Loran, Audio selector. It does have UAvionix tail beacon ADSB out, which is nice. I want to start my instrument as soon as possible, but I would have to rent an IFR plane for now, unless I spend the cash on avionics.

My thoughts would be to add a Garmin 355 - extra radios and GPS, Ps Engineering PMA 6000B audio panel, Garmin GTX 327 Transponder, and a Garmin 106A CDI. Those items will cost about $10,500 and I'm expecting at least $5,000 labor for the install, so $15,500. The only thing I'm skimping on is not adding the G5s. Renting a plane would probably run me $10,000 over the training, so I feel like I'd be better off putting the money into my plane. However, I know myself and will probably want to upgrade planes in the not too distant future. I'm not sure that I will get my money back out of the plane. Any thoughts from someone who may have upgraded panels recently?
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Welcome!

Update your plane now! Then use it to earn your rating and enjoy it every time you fly.

I did it in 2018 to my original 1980 panel in my 172. Spent way more on the panel than I did buying the plane.

My only regret is I did it in 3 stages, it would have been cheaper if I would gone all the way the first time. I earned my instrument rating in my plane with the new panel and have flown 800 some hours since having it installed..
Absolutely no regrets, Go for it if you want to fly IFR. Even if you don't a GPS nav is great thing to have.
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Grum.Man said:
Doesn't sound like you need a transponder or audio panel. Why not just do the GPS and CDI? If you've owned the plane for a while and are confident in its mechanical shape then I would invest in it. Just about anything on the market right now that's decent is over priced and anything with even a believable price has probably been neglected.
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I agree. I think I will follow this advice. I'm in the same boat as the OP and have been waffling for a while. I have owned my RV for almost 3 years(150 hours) and really like the build quality and the engine. The panel is VFR only and dated. I have commercial/instrument and would like some IFR capability even if I won't use it much. I just need to get off the fence and do it... hate the thought of being grounded for several months though. :)
 
Nice panel Gary. Straight forward, but very very functional and modern!
 
edo2000 said:
I agree. I think I will follow this advice. I'm in the same boat as the OP and have been waffling for a while. I have owned my RV for almost 3 years(150 hours) and really like the build quality and the engine. The panel is VFR only and dated. I have commercial/instrument and would like some IFR capability even if I won't use it much. I just need to get off the fence and do it... hate the thought of being grounded for several months though. :)
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Talk to the guys at AATG at GXY. Did my G5 and GPS 175 and only took 3 weeks.
 
Bite the bullet and put in a GTN 650 and a Garmin steam gauge CDI if you can’t wait 6 months or more for a 275 (they are back ordered) $25-$30k installed?

Audio panel needs? Pull out anything “LORAN”.
 
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There is nothing like flying your own aircraft IFR. Renting for IFR travel is just not the best.

If you like your plane, do the upgrade. If you plan to move up, then go find the right plane now, then take your lessons.

Things to consider:
Any radios over 25y old should be replaced or relegated to backup use when flying hard IFR.
If you don't already have an autopilot that will track a course, either put that in the upgrade budget or look for another plane.
With lead-times, finding a plane that has been updated may be easier than updating yours. But, that does not mean it will be any cheaper in today's market.
Putting the money into the labor to install discontinued radios (such as a GNS430, which I fly with) is not usually a good idea.
Gary's panel is a good looking panel. I would love to have it in my Lance. (But my GNS430, GTX330ES and Sandel EHSI are currently functioning well.)
Installation costs for some of the newer stuff may be cheaper than old stuff as there is less interfacing wires on the new stuff.

I agree that this is not an easy decision.
 
Julian, I don't know if you had IFR in mind when you purchased teh aricraft, but you need at least an Archer to make the required upgrades worth it. Look at the maximla vlaues ofr your type in T-A-P, Add in the $$ for the ugrades and you'll be above the highees cost of any aircft of your type advertiesed. Think LIFECYCE costs.

You can fix the situation now but after you spend the $$s you cannot get your $$s out.
 
If you get $5k more for your plane when you sell, then it’s a wash:

-Renting is $10k to get your IR
-Upgrading is $15k to get your IR

Do you think you could get $5k more for your plane? If not, is it worth $5k to have your own IFR plane? You bought a plane instead of renting after all.
 
Personally if you are selling the plane do the minimum to make it usable for what you need then get rid of it.

I personally wouldn't mind spending the money even if I didn't think I would get it out when I EVENTUALLY sold it. IF and that is big if I was going to keep it for a fairly long time. The idea being I would get the bulk of the use out of it.
 
If your aircraft is one that meets your mission needs, and you plan on keeping it many years, forget the resell value issue and just fix it up. You will be a lot safer with newer equipment in your own plane than in a rental plane.

And, don't be too cheap and try to do it in stages as it will cost you more than just getting a loan and doing it all.
 
thito01 speaks wise …..

I started out tracking what this hobby was costing me. I stopped. There is nothing about this that makes financial sense LOl. If you’re keeping this plane for a while - put the avionics in that you’ll enjoy and fly safe with.
 
bbchien said:
Julian, I don't know if you had IFR in mind when you purchased teh aricraft, but you need at least an Archer to make the required upgrades worth it. ....
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Having owned a 140, I have to disagree that a 140 is not capable of being flown IFR. Also, a friend had a 140 for years and flew it IFR a lot here in New England.

Sure, the 140 isn't going to get on top of weather, but it is capable of being used IFR. It isn't quite as fast as an Archer, doesn't fly quite as high.

A big reason for an Archer vs the 140 is how many people you want to take flying.
 
Grum.Man said:
Doesn't sound like you need a transponder or audio panel. Why not just do the GPS and CDI? If you've owned the plane for a while and are confident in its mechanical shape then I would invest in it. Just about anything on the market right now that's decent is over priced and anything with even a believable price has probably been neglected.
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that
 
Sell if and buy and airplane with the right boxes. Installation is usually more than the boxes even if you have new shiny stuff. Odds are in a few years you'll get tired of the Cherokee and want something else, and then all your avionics money goes right out the window. If you're going to upgrade an airplane like that be certain it's on you can keep a LONG time.
 
Hard to beat a pair of G5's in bang for the buck on utility, reliability, and resale.
 
If you are keeping the plane for the long term and it meets your needs, having WAAS GPS, a decent audio panel to connect everything correctly, and a pair of G5s will make for a really nice IFR aircraft. I wouldn't worry about resale recovery unless you are thinking of turning over the aircraft for something else in the near future. If you do dual G5s you don't need the GI106A, as the G5 HSI can be your primary CDI. If some of the old avionics can serve as backup COM or NAV, keep one or two. But to be honest, I've never used NAV2 for actual NAV other than an IPC in 20 years. Ever. I use COM2 all the time (Ground, ATIS, etc.) and it is an important backup for IFR. I'd rather lose VOR NAV than COM when IFR. I've got gobs of emergency GPS backup, and my portable radio will pick up VORs if I'm not too far away.
 
Better check around for somebody willing to do the install work too. Around here it’s not easy.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
If you get $5k more for your plane when you sell, then it’s a wash:

-Renting is $10k to get your IR
-Upgrading is $15k to get your IR

Do you think you could get $5k more for your plane? If not, is it worth $5k to have your own IFR plane? You bought a plane instead of renting after all.
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This is bad math.

$15k to upgrade then add on to that the hours needed to fly for the IFR training.

So renting $10k
Upgrades $15k + $5-7k in gas/cfi - minimum
 
pfarber said:
This is bad math.

$15k to upgrade then add on to that the hours needed to fly for the IFR training.

So renting $10k
Upgrades $15k + $5-7k in gas/cfi - minimum
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The cost of CFI would be in both figures, so I left those out purposely.

Renting wet (FBO) vs dry (club) might make a difference too.

Math is what got me in a financial position to buy a plane and on-track to retire early ;)
 
Bob Noel said:
otoh - you might like the simple light aircraft like the 140.

I bought a cherokee 140, but wanted a bigger faster airplane.

After a few years, my airplane was down for a few months and I borrowed a friend's cheroke 180. I realized I liked the lighter controls of the 140. I realized I liked my 140.
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I like the 140/160. Im not saying I wont get the itch at some point, But I need to learn how to be a good pilot right now.
 
This is my person 2 cents. I wouldn't put any money into the cherokee unless you knew you were keeping it for a while. Long enough to justify the expense of the avionics, so that's a personal call. I flew my mooney for a few years. I kept thinking I might step up to a different plane, but I finally realized it suited my mission just fine. At that point, I started throwing money at the panel. If money was no issue, I say knock yourself out and do it.
 
Hey all I’m new to the show here.
I have had a 1969, 140 for about 4 years now. I finally decided last fall to go all in and upgrade the whole panel. I got what I feel is a good deal and the shop is letting me do much of the labor removing the old stuff. It took about 5 months to get everything in and we’re (my avionics shop) working to finish up the connectors and wire bundles. I’m installing 3 GI 275’s, gtn65txi, GNC 255, GMA 345 and a GTX 345, and a flight stream 510. It should more than double the value of the plane for a few months at least. Does anyone know of any issues I may face installing the GMU 11in the Left wing. The pitot tube is out there and I don’t want it to interfere with the GMU if the heat needs to be turned on. Also I’m installing LED lighting in the wing tips so I shouldn’t have to worry about the flasher boxes any more.
Any advice or pointers would be great other than I’m wasting my money. If I didn’t want to blow my money I’d have put a pool in my back yard.
 
seashell said:
Hey all I’m new to the show here.
I have had a 1969, 140 for about 4 years now. I finally decided last fall to go all in and upgrade the whole panel. I got what I feel is a good deal and the shop is letting me do much of the labor removing the old stuff. It took about 5 months to get everything in and we’re (my avionics shop) working to finish up the connectors and wire bundles. I’m installing 3 GI 275’s, gtn65txi, GNC 255, GMA 345 and a GTX 345, and a flight stream 510. It should more than double the value of the plane for a few months at least. Does anyone know of any issues I may face installing the GMU 11in the Left wing. The pitot tube is out there and I don’t want it to interfere with the GMU if the heat needs to be turned on. Also I’m installing LED lighting in the wing tips so I shouldn’t have to worry about the flasher boxes any more.
Any advice or pointers would be great other than I’m wasting my money. If I didn’t want to blow my money I’d have put a pool in my back yard.
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You probably did not read the POA terms of use close enough to catch it, but you are now legally bound to post pictures of your new panel when done.
 
Ed Haywood said:
You probably did not read the POA terms of use close enough to catch it, but you are now legally bound to post pictures of your new panel when done.
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the last of the 170B comm wiring removed. And the spaces waiting to be refilled.
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