After first solo in student owned plane

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Dan Gordon

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I have a friend who is a student pilot and owns the plane she is training in. She is due for her first solo and her flight instructor told her that he needs to be at the airport for any subsequent solo flights, not only endorsed airports away from the home field, but pattern work at the home airfield as well. I asked her to clarify why and she told me its a flight school rule. Ethics question: would you fly the plane on days there are no instructors on-site, even if only in the pattern, let alone to airports that are signed off for her to fly to? She owns the plane.
 
She cannot violate the terms of the endorsement written in her logbook, which frequently have restrictions.

I’d see how much of an actual restriction this is. Or if she’s conjuring scenarios that don’t happen. It might be she can work a deal where she just gives him a call, he looks out the window, & gives the go ahead. That’s what my instructor did. After awhile, even that restriction was lifted As I gained hours.

more importantly, her ins would probably take a dim view of any violations.
 
At our flight training facility, a student must fill out a pre-solo form prior to every solo flight. It asks a series of questions to help the student assess risk. A CFI, other than the primary CFI, must review and approve the form before the student gets the key to the airplane.
 
I owned my plane during instruction. I gradually worked up to fly pattern at home airport, fly to nearby airport and do pattern and finally fly to the training area and do maneuvers. Got an endorsement for each one that didn't require a day-of sign off. Think reason instructor was OK with it was I had a pretty good handle on weather and didn't fly if it was at all questionable. Did the "pre-solo" forms for the first three iterations of each of these, then got a blanket sign off.
 
This is standard advice for most instructors and sometimes might be specified for insurance coverage. Instructor at the field, day of flight to review the weather and other considerations to include student preparedness for student solo flight. How many times have students shown up for lessons or a solo flight and not checked the weather or NOTAMS.

A number of times as the "Duty Instructor of the Day" in the local flying club a student has approached me about solo flight. Standard questions, when did you last fly? When was your last instructor flight? What do you expect the weather/winds to be today, any NOTAMs that affect the flight? Let's see your logbook.
 
After my solo I was limited to x-miles from'y home field and I needed to prepare a flight plan for my CFI's review prior to doing the flight. As time went by the radius from the field expanded until he felt I was ready for my first 50+nm cross country solo. After that was completed my radius from the home field greatly expanded and I didn't have to submit a flight plan for approval.

The point? Baby steps. Ownership of the plane is irrelevent. Follow the rules set down by the CFI.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I gave Annissa basically the same responses as above: The CFI and school establishes the rules, its up to you to follow them. Even thought she owns the plane, I told her don't take the risk -- rules are there for a reason -- imagine how stupid you would feel if an instructor happened to show up and she was doing pattern work. Or if she damaged her plane, etc. There are enough things to worry about and even though you might not like being grounded on days when instructors aren't present, think of the consequences if anything went wrong. All her training with this particular school would go for naught as they might boot her...
 
Hang 4 said:
I owned my plane during instruction. I gradually worked up to fly pattern at home airport, fly to nearby airport and do pattern and finally fly to the training area and do maneuvers. Got an endorsement for each one that didn't require a day-of sign off. Think reason instructor was OK with it was I had a pretty good handle on weather and didn't fly if it was at all questionable. Did the "pre-solo" forms for the first three iterations of each of these, then got a blanket sign off.
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Exact same here.
 
Dan Gordon said:
Ethics question: would you fly the plane on days there are no instructors on-site, even if only in the pattern, let alone to airports that are signed off for her to fly to? She owns the plane.
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If I found out a student of mine was doing something like that after laying out the solo privileges and limitations that I was comfortable with, they'd be a former student of mine in short order.
 
I had to meet my instructor and tell him exactly what I was doing, and when I was to be back. And he'd ask a few questions before the flight. If he was in the air when I got back we'd debrief over the phone later. All in a private plane.

Don't take risks or could end like this: https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2018/a18o0096/a18o0096.html

Actually met the instructor who gave him his new student permit. The whole story was a bit insane how the student had never finished training but was taking people up for flight. Apparently eventually his student permit ran out and he decided to resume training. I was told no instructors would take him on except that last guy after what he did. And the first time the student went for a solo after resign off he crashed and died.
 
I once had a young student that I had solo'd. He came to the glider club one day told me he could not fly but would work the ground support, his arm in a cast. I asked what happened. He said he had dumped his dirt bike, motorcycle, in the desert. I knew where he lived, a few residential streets from the desert. He was too young for a license.

So...... I ask, how did you get the bike to the desert? He fessed up, he rode the bike to the desert. Well let's see, its unregistered? Yes. You don't have a motorcycle license? No I do not. Well, there is the dilemma, How can I trust you to follow the rules up there flying, if you are not following them down here on the ground. He sobered up real fast and in the next few weeks I noticed a large change in his maturity level and actions. Such is the task of instructing/mentoring teenagers.

He could have easily pushed his bike about 1/2 mile to get to the desert and legally ridden it, or told me that is what he did. But he answered honestly, that he had ridden an unregistered bike with no license on city streets.

I found out later that his dad had told him to be truthful with me. Lie to your instructor that is donating his time, and you will no longer have an instructor.
 
My uncle returned from USAF duty and decided he finally wanted to learn to fly (like his father and younger brother, my dad). He showed up at the nearest airport to our hometown that had a flight instructor. He told him wanted to learn to fly and had a plane to use. The instructor said “Great, we will get started tomorrow. Where is your plane?” My uncle replied “It is on the ramp“ and proceeded to lead him to a yellow J3. The instructor was a little puzzled and asked him how it got here. My uncle told him “I flew it here. I read the little book and watched my brother fly it”. The instructor told him it will be a pretty short lesson. LOL circa 1955 or so. My uncle is still living and still quite a character.
 
Dan Gordon said:
I have a friend who is a student pilot and owns the plane she is training in. She is due for her first solo and her flight instructor told her that he needs to be at the airport for any subsequent solo flights, not only endorsed airports away from the home field, but pattern work at the home airfield as well. I asked her to clarify why and she told me its a flight school rule. Ethics question: would you fly the plane on days there are no instructors on-site, even if only in the pattern, let alone to airports that are signed off for her to fly to? She owns the plane.
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Let's rephrase the question:

"When there are legal limitations on what I am allowed to do is it unethical to violate them if no one catches me?"
 
You have to be within the limits of your solo endorsement to be legal.

When I instructed primary, I would do the first solo endoresment as ONLY allowing that one flight. The first two were pattern only.

Once they were cleared to go to the practice area, they just had to get a verbal OK from an instructor
 
mondtster said:
If I found out a student of mine was doing something like that after laying out the solo privileges and limitations that I was comfortable with, they'd be a former student of mine in short order.
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I have a coworker who, in a past life, had a student who stole a King Air for a joy ride. In the process of sorting it all out, the coworker was told by the FAA that he couldn’t rescind a solo endorsement. His response was “watch me,” and the Fed watched him line through and rescind the endorsement.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I have a coworker who, in a past life, had a student who stole a King Air for a joy ride. In the process of sorting it all out, the coworker was told by the FAA that he couldn’t rescind a solo endorsement. His response was “watch me,” and the Fed watched him line through and rescind the endorsement.
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Was that before or after the addition of the 90 day limit on solo privileges? Interestingly, the solo endorsement verbiage for acting as PIC in an additional category/class still doesn't have the time limitation on it unless the instructor adds it.

I had a student that held a sport pilot certificate who came to me wanting to upgrade to a private pilot so he could fly his newly acquired Vans RV. He could not grasp the concept that he couldn't just go out and do whatever he wanted to with the aircraft until after he had passed a checkride, even though we had went over the privileges and limitations several times. I gave him a second chance but the final straw was when I found out that he was giving rides to some of his friends. He was about halfway through the endorsement period so I didn't have to wait too long before it wasn't my problem anymore.
 
mondtster said:
Was that before or after the addition of the 90 day limit on solo privileges? Interestingly, the solo endorsement verbiage for acting as PIC in an additional category/class still doesn't have the time limitation on it unless the instructor adds it.

I had a student that held a sport pilot certificate who came to me wanting to upgrade to a private pilot so he could fly his newly acquired Vans RV. He could not grasp the concept that he couldn't just go out and do whatever he wanted to with the aircraft until after he had passed a checkride, even though we had went over the privileges and limitations several times. I gave him a second chance but the final straw was when I found out that he was giving rides to some of his friends. He was about halfway through the endorsement period so I didn't have to wait too long before it wasn't my problem anymore.
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The 90-day limit was there, but he decided it needed to end right now.
 
I have a friend who bought his own C-170 before starting "official" flying lessons. Before that he had hundreds of hours in ultralight airplanes and had been the US paramotor champion... he was a natural. His instructor was based at an airport about 40 miles from where he kept the plane. Once he soloed the 170, he flew a lot. I believe the CFI signed him off for all of the local airports, and I don't think he called each time. He probably had well over 500 hours by the time he took the checkride, not because he needed the practice, just because he liked to fly so much.

BillTIZ said:
he had ridden an unregistered bike with no license on city streets.
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I don't think I've ever known a kid with a dirt bike or minibike who hasn't ridden it on the streets. But I've never lived in a city.
 
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