After cancelling IFR with en-route controller

WannFly

WannFly

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I was watching a YT video and saw this scenario:

pilot cancels IFR with en-route controller
controller hands him over to tower and before handing over the instruction is - "resume own navigation, VFR altitude your discretion"

now if there are some puffy clouds here and there and i punch through them, thats a VFR violation and since i cancelled my IFR, i fall back to VFR regulations.

is my understanding correct?
 
WannFly said:
I was watching a YT video and saw this scenario:

pilot cancels IFR with en-route controller
controller hands him over to tower and before handing over the instruction is - "resume own navigation, VFR altitude your discretion"

now if there are some puffy clouds here and there and i punch through them, thats a VFR violation and since i cancelled my IFR, i fall back to VFR regulations.

is my understanding correct?
Click to expand...

Yup.
 
Same applies to canceling as soon as you descend below a cloud deck. can't report bases at 2000 and request cancel at 1800...
 
Walboy said:
I canceled with approach just below the cloud bases at an uncontrolled field because it's one in and one out. The controller was very appreciative as traffic was backed up waiting to get in. Sometimes common sense applies. He knew there was no conflicting traffic.
Click to expand...
There's a story about someone who did that and there just happened to be an ASI on the ground listening in. It appeared in a flying mag.
 
FORANE said:
Same applies to canceling as soon as you descend below a cloud deck. can't report bases at 2000 and request cancel at 1800...
Click to expand...
You can if you're outside of controlled airspace.

Rgbeard said:
Rather than cancel, I’d be tempted to request a contact approach.
Click to expand...
Why?
 
Contact approach is still an ifr clearance. it allows you to legally scud run. I use them frequently.
 
So why not just take the visual? If the goal is to get into conditions you can legally cancel in, that would work as well as any. I've found more controllers (especially enroute ones) understand visual than contact.
 
Going Iinto my home airport with mountains in the traffic pattern, the visual will require vectoring well west of the airport. If I am ccoming from the south or east it may be more efficient to dive between broken layers on a contact approach. but, I only do them in familiar areas and during the day.
 
Walboy said:
I canceled with approach just below the cloud bases at an uncontrolled field because it's one in and one out. The controller was very appreciative as traffic was backed up waiting to get in. Sometimes common sense applies. He knew there was no conflicting traffic.
Click to expand...

Who was showing common sense there?
 
Walboy said:
What happened?

How did the ASI know if the airplane was in Class E or Class G?
Click to expand...
Better yet, how would the ASI know that the ceiling, on the side of the airport that the guy came in on, was close enough to the plane to be a violation?
 
Walboy said:
What happened?

How did the ASI know if the airplane was in Class E or Class G?
Click to expand...
If I recall correctly, it was resolved short of a certificate action. I don't remember a lot of the details, but I don't think there was any disagreement that it took place in Class E. It was some years ago.
 
If flying into a field with no ATC radar coverage, I have ATC if I can have someone relay the cancel IR.
So far it has worked everytime. Around Boston they just say ask someone to relay. Around western MD they have always given me the call sign of someone they want to relay.
Much faster then waiting for me to pull off the runway and get my phone out.

Tim

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
 
Walboy said:
Interestingly enough, I have learned that just because clearances exist in the regs, it doesn't necessarily mean a facility can issue them. For example, I was stunned to learn during a tower tour at an airport with parallel runways that they were not "certified" to issue "line up and wait" instructions.

I suppose that's also true of approach clearances. Lots of things in the background that pilots are unaware of. A contact or visual approach may not have been in the cards for that particular facility.
Click to expand...

Yup. There used to be a world where any Tower Controller could say ‘position and hold’ at any time. That world ended in 1991 when USA1493 landed on SKW5569.
 
Rgbeard said:
Rather than cancel, I’d be tempted to request a contact approach.
Click to expand...

That


Once you cancel you are canceling IFR, thus are now operating under VFR rules, all of them
 
midlifeflyer said:
There's a story about someone who did that and there just happened to be an ASI on the ground listening in. It appeared in a flying mag.
Click to expand...
I believe in that instance, the weather was below VFR requirements, so canceled in the air, now VFR in IMC conditions.
 
Walboy said:
I canceled with approach just below the cloud bases at an uncontrolled field because it's one in and one out. The controller was very appreciative as traffic was backed up waiting to get in. Sometimes common sense applies. He knew there was no conflicting traffic.
Click to expand...

Yep.

I was going into Eagle Creek (EYE) a couple of years ago for the Red Bull races at the Indianapolis Speedway and a lot of others were flying in there too. It's IFR and no tower, but you can reach ATC on the ground. The shmuck in front of me lands, slows, turns off the runway, onto a taxiway, still hasn't called to cancel his IFR clearance (long enough that Approach and I are talking about it on the radio), so ATC has to break me off of the approach and come back around and fit back into all the traffic coming into EYE for the Red Bull races. ATC couldn't see him on radar anymore, but I was getting good ADS-B data on him showing him at runway altitude and 30 knots of speed and slowing on the runway before turning off. :mad: He was probably on the local announcing. "Dude, no one is going anywhere with it being IFR conditions and you not cancelling!" :mad::mad::mad:

I canceled with them shortly after breaking out to help the 4 or more planes behind me get in.
 
tawood said:
Better yet, how would the ASI know that the ceiling, on the side of the airport that the guy came in on, was close enough to the plane to be a violation?
Click to expand...
And unless you're in a surface area, the CEILING is entirely immaterial. You just need to be 500' below the cloud above you (or outside of controlled airspace, just clear of it).
 
tawood said:
Better yet, how would the ASI know that the ceiling, on the side of the airport that the guy came in on, was close enough to the plane to be a violation?
Click to expand...
If it is a Class E Surface Area airport the AWOS controls for the entire surface area. That's controlling and the ASI knows that.
 
Walboy said:
Interestingly enough, I have learned that just because clearances exist in the regs, it doesn't necessarily mean a facility can issue them. For example, I was stunned to learn during a tower tour at an airport with parallel runways that they were not "certified" to issue "line up and wait" instructions.

I suppose that's also true of approach clearances. Lots of things in the background that pilots are unaware of. A contact or visual approach may not have been in the cards for that particular facility.
Click to expand...
Contact approaches and cruise clearances (and SVFR, for that matter) are becoming so little used that I think sometimes controllers have to think too hard about what they mean. I usually try to give some advance notice if I'm going to use them.
 
I don't understand why one would cancel IFR when flying into a tower-controlled airport. That's makes NO sense.
 
SbestCFII said:
I don't understand why one would cancel IFR when flying into a tower-controlled airport. That's makes NO sense.
Click to expand...

There are scenarios where it can help. The Tower being able to call Approach/Center and say you’ve cancelled can get the next guy his approach clearance sooner. Tower could have an IFR departure ready to go that needs you down before it can be released. Your cancellation could come out far enough that they could launch that departure before you land.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Contact approaches and cruise clearances (and SVFR, for that matter) are becoming so little used that I think sometimes controllers have to think too hard about what they mean. I usually try to give some advance notice if I'm going to use them.
Click to expand...


Just my own experience is that contact approaches are not unfamiliar to ATC. I’ve never had a hesitation on a request.
 
FORANE said:
Same applies to canceling as soon as you descend below a cloud deck. can't report bases at 2000 and request cancel at 1800...
Click to expand...

That's silly, why would you report the cloud bases then? I think they were 2300, weren't they?
 
Rgbeard said:
Just my own experience is that contact approaches are not unfamiliar to ATC. I’ve never had a hesitation on a request.
Click to expand...
Yeah, contact approaches are less of a problem than the others. The unfortunate thing about them is that apparently sometimes pilots aren't as good as the think they are at finding the airport...I've been refused contact approaches for that reason.
 
I was refused a contact approach in the SF Bay area, but other than that, I think my few requests have all been granted.
 
SbestCFII said:
I don't understand why one would cancel IFR when flying into a tower-controlled airport. That's makes NO sense.
Click to expand...

Most of the time, it doesn't. However you have some non-radar towers where if you go in IFR, it can significantly delay the next IFR arrival or departure. There were a few times going into IPT (Williamsport, PA) where I would cancel when in VMC and knowing I could get to the airport to help out someone else. For example, once they put me in line ahead of the Dash 8 while I was in the Aztec, and he was going to get delay vectors. So I canceled and saved the passengers a few minutes.

Canceling IFR promptly is courteous when going into non-towered fields, however I'll make sure I'm in legal VMC before canceling for the scenario @midlifeflyer noted. I'll also generally try to get the phone number for the local ATC facility so that if I have to cancel on the ground, I can do so promptly and get the next person in. Again, 99% of the time it's a non-issue since most non-towered airports on IFR/MVFR days aren't very busy.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Most of the time, it doesn't. However you have some non-radar towers where if you go in IFR, it can significantly delay the next IFR arrival or departure.
Click to expand...
That's true. We tend to think in terms of universal radar coverage to the ground, but it doesn't exist everywhere. The last real hold I got was coming into Santa Fe, NM (towered), some 10 years ago. The hold was to wait for an IFR departure because Albuquerque TRACON could not provide radar separation all the way down.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Most of the time, it doesn't. However you have some non-radar towers where if you go in IFR, it can significantly delay the next IFR arrival or departure. There were a few times going into IPT (Williamsport, PA) where I would cancel when in VMC and knowing I could get to the airport to help out someone else. For example, once they put me in line ahead of the Dash 8 while I was in the Aztec, and he was going to get delay vectors. So I canceled and saved the passengers a few minutes.

Canceling IFR promptly is courteous when going into non-towered fields, however I'll make sure I'm in legal VMC before canceling for the scenario @midlifeflyer noted. I'll also generally try to get the phone number for the local ATC facility so that if I have to cancel on the ground, I can do so promptly and get the next person in. Again, 99% of the time it's a non-issue since most non-towered airports on IFR/MVFR days aren't very busy.
Click to expand...
Additionally, SUA can be affected. Most pilots don’t care but for those sensitive to efficient use of taxpayer dollars (like @James331), expensive training can be delayed or terminated.
 
Flying into 6B6 a few weeks ago with weather on my tail (I broke out of clouds 20ft above MDA), there were three planes waiting to get into other local fields. Not sure why (LOA, radar, whatever) they would only allow one plane at a time in block. So with me on approach no one else could get in.
ATC asked for a quick call once on the ground so they could get the next plane in (no radio coverage at the field). I asked if another plane could relay. ATC said yes, when I was on the runway and slow enough to taxi, I called for the relay to cancel IFR. Easily saved five minutes for the next plane, and I heard two more planes use the same method while taxing back to my hangar and putting the plane away.

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
 
Cooter said:
Additionally, SUA can be affected. Most pilots don’t care but for those sensitive to efficient use of taxpayer dollars (like @James331), expensive training can be delayed or terminated.
Click to expand...
I thought that IFR traffic was kept out of active SUA. :confused2:
 
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