After a Crash

That wasn't my experience at all. Lots of cops and emergency people and TV newscritters showed up (forced landing in a big smooth looking field that turned out to be a swamp and the airplane cartwheeled, within view of a busy interstate highway, so no doubt dozens if not hundreds of 911 calls). The cops didn't really know what to do, though I think one of the state cops was from their aviation section or something. It probably helped that one of the first LEOs on the scene was my next door neighbor. I had to sign something saying I was refusing medical attention (though they let me sit in the air conditioned ambulance on that very hot day to get away from the newscritters). It did take 4 hours or so before I left, but a lot of that was arranging to have the plane removed and transported to a place where it could be disassembled. FAA never came that day; I talked to them on the phone the next day and they came out to look at it and my paperwork a week later.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I understand. The ambulance did show up, but he refused treatment. When I crashed, I did the same. Looking back, not so smart.
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Bingo. Concussion, internal bleeding, who knows what could be going on that one may not realize.
High school students playing football are subject to more precautions when injured than your friend decided he needed.
 
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Dana said:
It did take 4 hours or so before I left, but a lot of that was arranging to have the plane removed and transported to a place where it could be disassembled.
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Did you keep the plane? They asked us where we wanted it moved to and I told them he didn’t care. As soon as he hit the ground the plane belonged to the insurance company!
 
Lowflynjack said:
What state were you in? I'm wondering how much of this is the Texas State Troopers and the FAA vs. other states.

Also, a gear-up landing may not be considered a priority as compared to a bigger crash.
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Let's just say that the experience in the SAT FSDO vs say Lubbock is amazing...
 
My guess is the police officers saw a crashed airplane, heard FAA, and were going to do whatever they were told even if it seemed stupid.

Something that I see more of every year in our culture is people afraid to take initiative/use their judgment and authorities coming down on anyone who dares to try. We build increasingly complex bodies of laws, regulations, policies, and procedures that tie the hands of people on the scene to take an action even if it is obviously the best choice for everyone involved. This stems, IMO, from an obsession with liability and accountability. Don't get me wrong, people should be held responsible for their own actions but at some point you have to acknowledge that human beings are imperfect even when trying their best. Just look at all the human factors research done with air crashes over the past 50 or so years to see how that works.

Government officials, bosses, and administrators have figured out the magic formula- discourage your subordinates from using any judgement and make sure their every action is justified by a peer reviewed/studied/approved/rubberstamped set of documents so you have a good legal defense if they were following it and a good defense if they weren't. It's certainly easier than putting trust in people to make the right choices most of the time and giving them a chance to learn from mistakes. Might as well let the AIs take over, we're already doing our best to make humans blindly follow their programming.
 
If I am physically capable, and not in restraints, or otherwise advised by counsel, I am going to get as far away from the crash as possible. Cannot think of much good that can come from being right there. News/police/faa/bystanders; what good can these guys do for you in those early hours?
"I am in shock; I don't think I can answer your questions right now."
After I have caught my breath and got my HR down, my attorney and I will discuss privately what has to be said or done publicly.
 
A trip to the hospital,is always in order. Gives you time to organize your thoughts.
 
AOPA Pilot Protection Service. Well worth it.

They were the first ones I called. Gave me step by step instructions including phone numbers.

Texas DPS troopers couldn’t have been more helpful, gave me a ride back to my car at home base.
 
I'm not saying that the victim in the OP should have refused treatment, but there is a downside to going to the hospital, particularly in an ambulance if you don't really need it.

Costs. Unless you have medical insurance that covers it, both the ambulance ride and the ER visit will amount to multiple AMU's. Several years ago, I was in a motorcycle accident that involved two ambulance trips and three days in the hospital. Insurance did cover it but I saw the raw numbers. The two ambulance runs alone were ten grand, and the total bill was over $50K. And nothing was broke, just some road rash and massive 'blunt force trauma to the body.' My out of pocket costs for deductibles and co-pays were still on the order of about an AMU.
 
FAA doesn't have arrest powers, as far as I know, or the authority to direct LE to detain. "Officer, I was just in a plane crash - I'm going for medical treatment. There isn't going to be any further conversation, with you or the FAA today".

Police policy ain't law. Just internal policy. Not ragging on the officer in the field following his org's protocols, but call an ambulance and I doubt he'd refuse your departure.
 
I have a good friend who is a FAA safety inspector. I emailed him about your issue and he told me the following. I have paraphrased a little.

1. The accident scene belongs to the first responders until after all victims needing medical attention are treated, all decedents are removed, and here is no risk of fire.

2. FAA are NOT first responders.

3. All FAA questions can and should wait until medical attention is taken care of.

4. The troopers should not have detained your friend on behalf of the FAA. There is no expectation that they do so. They should just secure the scene.

5. When the FAA first starts asking questions after an accident, they are merely investigating the accident. If they start to believe they are crossing into an investigation of an airman, they will issue a PBR notice first.

6. The FAA does not go to the scene looking to make a case against an airman but just to do their investigation.

7. Even if the investigation shows there was error on the part of the airman, it seldom results in certificate action beyond a 709. Usually not even that. Very seldom does it go beyond that and if it does, you’ll probably agree with the FAA that it was needed.

8. The perceptions that some people have about the FAA and their processes on this site and in aviation circles in general are not founded in reality.
 
I didn't talk to the FAA until a couple days later for my accident(maybe the next day?). Night of I talked to the NTSB due to it probably being substantial damage, they approved removal of the aircraft from the runway and just collected all the contact information. The city PD just wanted to make sure I was ok and took some pictures. Airport manager called a tow truck and we got it moved out of the way and I went home.

I believe the 'accident' stayed with the NTSB but I don't believe either agency ever viewed the aircraft.

I don't want to push my luck, but other than having to drop by the FSDO and chat for an hour I've heard nothing further from the FAA, and it's been a year. Soon after the incident I took remedial training on my own before the FAA suggested it and had the CFI send the documentation over.
 
Lowflynjack said:
To say you can't leave the scene or you'll be detained is treating someone like a criminal in my mind. I'm not blaming the police, and no, it had nothing to do with them being unsure of the protocol. They clearly told me they had called the FAA and the FAA told them not to let him leave the scene until they arrived. They told me this is standard protocol. In Texas, the State Troopers always handle airplane accidents. It's the FAA causing the issue, not the police.
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My FAA friend says this is 100% hogwash. The FAA does not do this.
 
Lowflynjack said:
Did you keep the plane? They asked us where we wanted it moved to and I told them he didn’t care. As soon as he hit the ground the plane belonged to the insurance company!
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The plane wasn't insured (liability only). The crash was in a state park and the park officials demanded that it be removed immediately. One of the cops offered to call an offroad wrecking company "that had experience in moving airplanes" and I let him, they came out a few hours later with a Bobcat forklift and a flatbed. They got the plane out of the swamp with no further damage, cut down a few trees to get it to the road, put it on the flatbed, and with two cops (one of them my neighbor) blocking traffic, moved it 3 miles down the road to a place where I arranged to leave it for a few days until I could take the wings off to take it home. The wrecker cost a bit over $3K, but insurance paid that because the property owner required the immediate removal. Avemco was great about it, though they were probably just happy that I didn't have hull on it too.
 
timwinters said:
Was he there? Maybe hiding in the weeds?

You got pretty big balls to call the man a liar.
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woah! If anything he’d be calling the cop a liar. But I think even that is a bit over incendiary.
 
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Salty said:
Wo

woah! If anything he’d be calling the cop a liar. But I think even that is a bit over incendiary.
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I will respond to this post rather than the others as your reading of my comment is the most accurate. Yes, I was saying that the state trooper saying that it was the FAA’s call to detain was hogwash. I was not saying that Jack saying the trooper said it was hogwash. Big difference.

Based both upon what my friend (yes, I do have some) told me and my own knowledge of how the FAA functions, I highly doubt that the FAA ASI requested that the cops detain Jack’s friend on scene or anywhere else for that matter.

Now maybe the cop’s superior told him to detain or maybe the cop himself assumed he had to do it, but the likelihood that the ASI made the call is not likely. If it did happen then the ASI acted far outside of his policy and his authority and should be reported, however I doubt that he did so.
 
I am going to reach out to the ASI, but I had several people respond that the same thing has happened to them. I’m beginning to think this is mainly the San Antonio FSDO. I do believe the Troopers when they say the FAA told them to keep the pilot there.
 
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pburger said:
I am a strong supporter of law enforcement, so please don't read anything negative regarding law enforcement into this comment.

Did the troopers do any kind of sobriety or drug tests? Take any samples? I'm just curious.

When a buddy of mine had a taxiing accident (that involved three other planes), the local law enforcement did a drug screen on him while they waited for the FAA to arrive. I think they also did a breathalizer. This was in Missouri. There he was, faced with a situation he has never encountered in his life, totally unaware of his rights. He was clean and knew it, but he didn't know if he had to do these tests, or if he could refuse, and if he refused if it would cost him in some way.
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Yes, he could have refused a request for those tests, but he would rather quickly receive a registered letter from the FAA advising him of his emergency revocation.

The regs require you to cooperate with the request of local law enforcement for drug / alcohol testing. And if I were in an accident where someone was injured or killed I would request that test if the police didn’t ask for one.
 
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My experience cooperation is a one way street...the FAA went silent about their employee who crashed in my aircraft...And would not talk to two different local agencies who were conducting a criminal investigation...the six year old killed in the accident had been kidnapped from her mother over a month prior ( estranged father) and he was described by one detective as parinoid and on the run...you could write a book on this one...
 
timwinters said:
Was he there? Maybe hiding in the weeds?

You got pretty big balls to call the man a liar.
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Between the “lost in translation” potential stemming from FAA person (who knows what FAA person?) speaking to the LEO and the LEO reporting what he heard AND the somewhat inconsistent policies of the “FAA” (we have plenty of evidence of different FSDOs interpreting FARs differently in other contexts), I can easily see a way to reconcile both points of view without anyone lying.

I think the exact behavior you get in a similar situation can vary widely - from a very friendly LEO doing everything they can to help the pilot to a heavy handed approach like what Jack reported. All while the actors present are attempting to do what they think/are told is right.

Btw - I too think Jack's response was quite reasonable and I may have had a bit less patience...
 
Salty said:
woah! If anything he’d be calling the cop a liar. But I think even that is a bit over incendiary.
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I didn't say WHO he called out!! :cool:

but we all know that every fsdo works off of the exact same playbook and investigates incidents in the exact same manner as every other one does.

Har, I crack myself up.
 
FORANE said:
Seem to me this is a very different country than just a few decades ago. My grandfather told my father that there were less freedoms late in his life than there were in his youth. My father told me he has observed the same over his life. I too have noticed it over my life.

My wife crashed a snowmobile in Montana a few years back while on vacation. I was the only person to observe her accident. There were no other persons or property involved. She was on a trail riding within the speed limit; just an inexperienced rider. She was taken to an ICU for a few days, had surgery then endured a long painful trip back to Tennessee. A couple weeks after getting home she received a citation for reckless operation of a vehicle with a fine.
A few years ago she was driving on an interstate in Virginia. She said another driver swerved into her lane cutting her off causing her to go off the side and lose control in gravel resulting in her car getting stuck off the side of the interstate. As she waited for a tow truck, a Virginia state trooper came along and cited her for failing to maintain control of her vehicle or some such. Then, and here's the kicker, he drove off leaving her there alone on the side on I81 as she waited on the tow truck.
I used to look to authorities as helpful servants of the citizen. It seems these days issuing citations and fines are paramount. Heck, even my father who is retired CHP says that's what it has become.
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I would of written both those tickets as well, while under no pressure to issue citations and/or collect fines (although I agree that the pressure is out there)...sometimes doing my (past) job, I made people angry...it was part of my job.

RudyP said:
Between the “lost in translation” potential stemming from FAA person (who knows what FAA person?) speaking to the LEO and the LEO reporting what he heard AND the somewhat inconsistent policies of the “FAA” (we have plenty of evidence of different FSDOs interpreting FARs differently in other contexts), I can easily see a way to reconcile both points of view without anyone lying.

I think the exact behavior you get in a similar situation can vary widely - from a very friendly LEO doing everything they can to help the pilot to a heavy handed approach like what Jack reported. All while the actors present are attempting to do what they think/are told is right.

Btw - I too think Jack's response was quite reasonable and I may have had a bit less patience...
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I agree that Jack was reasonable...I also would have had less patience and pushed it farther.
 
Lowflynjack said:
Did you keep the plane? They asked us where we wanted it moved to and I told them he didn’t care. As soon as he hit the ground the plane belonged to the insurance company!
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Did he have the road made and was likely going to have a roll out coming to a stop, but the car is what careened him out of control, or was he not able to set it down under control anyway before he got to the car? If the former, that would be a real bummer to know that you had a successful landing made but one car ends up ruining that. Either way, he walked away and that's a good thing.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I understand. The ambulance did show up, but he refused treatment. When I crashed, I did the same. Looking back, not so smart.
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Yeah the adrenaline and effects from a concussion can have a negative effect on judgement. They can also mask a bad injury from others.

I was riding dirt bikes with a friend, through a field with some taller grass when he hit a hidden rock and went over the handlebars. It was a nasty crash but he got right up. I asked him if he was alright, he looked a bit rough but he said he was fine. I picked his bike up which was all bent up, beat the front wheel back in line as well as I could, and called his dad to come pick us up with a truck at the nearby road (so we did not have to ride all the way back with a busted motorcycle).

About 200 yards later he stopped in the middle of the trail and I rode up to see what was going on. He had a dazed look and wouldn't say anything other than "my back hurts". I could tell something was wrong so I got him off the bike and to sit down. Long story short he had a bad concussion and several broken vertebra. Ouch.
 
DutchRoller said:
My FAA friend says this is 100% hogwash. The FAA does not do this.
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Well, I've personally seen a similar situation in reference to a ground loop on an airport - not even on the road - where the DPS was called out, so I say Jack is telling the truth.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Well, I've personally seen a similar situation in reference to a ground loop on an airport - not even on the road - where the DPS was called out, so I say Jack is telling the truth.
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No one said Jack wasn't telling the truth. Local LEO's know very little about aviation and even less about what authorities the FAA does and does not have. Its not unimaginable that an FAA representative asking the LEO to 'ask the pilot if he wouldn't mind hanging around until we get there' could be interpreted as 'the FAA said you are not allowed to leave until they get here and if you try to leave we will arrest you'.

I once had a banner rope break while I was at 800' on the way to a tow over a city. I circled watching the banner fall and marked the spot on my GPS. Flew back to the airport and got in a car to get the banner back. By the time I got there the banner was folded up on the front lawn of a house. Right next door to house was a small fire station. The fire station building was literally 25' from the house. There was a local LEO standing by his car when I pulled up. No one else was there. No firemen, no home owner, just the one LEO. I walked up and he asked if I was the pilot. I said I was. He launched in diatribe about how he didn't know the FAA rules but he was damn sure I'd broken some law and he could throw the book at me if he wanted to yada yada yada. Then he told me about how the banner had been laying on the roof of the house and 'we had to get a fire truck all the way out here to get it down off the roof'.

I did an exaggerated dead pan look at the fire station, then the house, then back at the officer and said 'all the way out here? Yeah I can certainly see how that was a major hardship.' I think (hope) he realized how idiotic what just said sounded because he mumbled something about me not letting happen again or else and then got in his car and drove off.
 
I am reminded of something I read some years ago from an Air Force pilot from Vietnam. He said that in SERE (or period equivalent), he was told - “100% of pilots who have a crash or eject will go into shock. This can kill you”. They were told to lay down and raise their legs over a log or against a tree for 30 minutes if able. This relaxes you, pushes blood to the head and treats the shock.

A pilot who has been in an accident does not need to be detained at the accident scene. Sure the faa wants to see the airplane and wants to interview the pilot, but it only requires a report from the operator within 10 days. It does not require that the pilot be available to them immediately, which I think is one of the points the OP was getting at. The pilot’s contact information and securing the airplane are the key elements.
 
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bflynn said:
I am reminded of something I read some years ago from an Air Force pilot from Vietnam. He said that in SERE (or period equivalent), he was told - “100% of pilots who have a crash or eject will go into shock. This can kill you”. They were told to lay down and raise their legs over a log or against a tree for 30 minutes if able. This relaxes them, pushes blood to the head and treats the shock.
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For some reason, they seem to get excited about this sort of thing in Emergency Rooms.

I nicked my thumb in the table saw a bit over a year ago. No one around, so I wrapped a bunch of paper towel around it and drove myself to the ER.

I'm a clumsy SOB, so bleeding, bruising, etc. is nothing new. I checked in at the counter, explaining calmly what had happened, clutching my fairly blood-soaked paper towel. They put me in a seat to wait. I pulled out my phone for some one-handed surfing.

By this time, the adrenaline had backed off, and just sitting idly, I noticed I was starting to go into shock (see above about being accident prone. I recognize the symptoms). So I mentioned the person sitting next to me that I was getting a bit shocky, and was going to lie down, and that they shouldn't worry. So I went down on my back with my feet on the ER chairs and kept surfing.

Then someone else walked by and saw me. "THERE'S A MAN DOWN OVER HERE!"

I don't really blame the guy, but I *was* lying there holding my phone up, reading POA. Wasn't sprawled out, unconscious.

I immediately called out that everything was OK, nothing to see here, move along.

A minute later the ER head nurse was standing over me. We had a brief, polite discussion (during which I'm sure she was assessing my mental state and ensuring that I was in something approximating a normal state). "You know," she said, "They scrub these floors every night, but *I* sure wouldn't want to lie down on them." She suggested I sit down with my head between my knees. I offered that it had been about 20 years and 80 pounds of belly fat since I'd been able to do that. She then counter-offered with a suggestion that I sit upright, with my head as low as I could manage, and she'd get me a room quickly. And so it worked out.

Thumb tip is still numb, though....

Ron Wanttaja
 
Lowflynjack said:
I told you the story of my friend crashing. Now I'll talk more about what happens after you crash. You can call it a long-winded rant.

To start off, I'll tell those of you that haven't heard before, I was in a crash myself several years ago. What happened to me, happened to my friend, and now I'm hearing it happened to several other crash victims as well.

My friend crashed somewhere around 3:20PM. By the time I got to the scene, the firetrucks and most of the local police were gone. The State Troopers had taken over controlling the scene. When I pulled up, rolling my window down, I think I startled the Trooper who was blocking the road with his car. He turned on his siren! I laughed and told him I was stopping to talk to him. I told him who I was (my friend had told them I was coming) and he said it was okay for me to drive on up to the crash scene.

The first Trooper I ran into at the scene warned me that even though I was there to take my friend home, we couldn't leave until after the FAA came out to talk to him. I told him I understood that that is what he thought, but I was going to try to convince my friend to go to the hospital and if he was willing, we were leaving. He wasn't happy with me, and I asked if my friend was under arrest and he said no. I asked if he was being detained and he wouldn't really answer me. I told him I wasn't going to continue arguing with him and what happened next would depend on my friend's decision.

I know some of you are thinking I stirred things up unnecessarily, but I simply wanted them to understand that I know they can not refuse medical treatment.

My friend didn't want to go to the hospital and I didn't try to force him. Looking back, I should have. He had a cut on his head and wasn't acting right. That being said, we stayed.

After making him wait at the scene over 4 hours, the guy from the FAA finally showed up. He asked my friend a few questions. Where did you take off from? Where were you going? You weren't using the plane for business, right? Have you ever used the plane for business? You lost power? What altitude were you at? Then he asked the last question, "What do you think happened?" I cut my friend off and told him not to answer that and it was over. That's why he had to stay on scene for over four hours... for a handful of questions. He took photos of my friends license, medical, etc. He then walked around the plane for awhile and my friend said he didn't feel good and went to sit in my truck to get warm.

Around 8:30PM, I finally lost it and told the FAA rep that we were leaving. If he had anymore questions he could call. I told him my friend was feeling bad, he hadn't had any food, etc. He said he had more questions and it wouldn't take long and I told him no, we were done for the day. He had been on the scene for over 5 hours at that point.

Earler, one of the Troopers told me it was common to keep people on the scene until the investigation was over, even in a car accident. I told him I believed that to be somewhat true, but I gave him a comparison. Let's say this was a Chevy Suburban instead of an airplane. A guy loses control, hits another car and flips. You arrive and you see he is sober, he just lost control. Nobody was in the other car, and the driver only has minor injuries. Would he still be sitting on the scene 5 hours later? What about 2 hours later? He admitted they wouldn't.

I'm not asking you all to agree with me, and I do want to hear other people's opinions. In my opinion, when we're in an airplane accident we should be treated like victims. I believe we're treated like criminals. They will detain you if you try to leave! Why do we let them treat us this way? I sat out in the heat for over 4 hours when I crashed and the FAA never even showed up! I should be able to give my info to the police and then go home and wait for the FAA to call me.

I hope you're never in a crash, but if you are I recommend you go to the hospital whether you think you need to or not. It's the only way you can leave! I think they want to keep us on the scene so they can ask us questions while we're still in shock or not thinking clearly. I will also tell you the same thing I told my friend. NEVER answer the question, "What do you think happened?" Don't fall for that trap. They are the investigators, make them investigate. Maybe because of what I've gone through, but I always think they're trying to find something that will make it my fault. I wish I didn't feel this way.
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You're a good friend Jack.
 
Well, my friend really took this crash hard mentally. He's had a lot going on in his life and he just wasn't doing well. I finally got him out of the house today and he's back on his feet and doing well. We tried to go see the airplane and were told we couldn't touch it. We called the FAA and found out the NTSB has put a hold on it until they decide if they're doing further investigation. Because of this, I'm going to hold off on talking to the ASI since I don't want to make anything harder on my friend. I will follow up on this, just going to wait a little while!
 
As far as the NTSB is concerned. As the PIC, if you are involved in a reportable accident, as this was. you need to notify them immediately. Nothing in the 49 CFR Part 830 states you must remain at the scene until the FAA or the NTSB arrive. Sounds like an LEO protocol
 
By the way if anyone is interested, regardless of what I think of the whole FAA vs LEO debate on the detaining aspect of the situation, I also think Jack’s actions and care for his friend was very reasonable and in fact admirable. Trying to get his friend to seek medical attention and preventing him from answering questions while possibly in a state of diminished capacity was rock solid the right thing to do.
 
Nothing wrong with seeing a mental health professional, either of y'all. PTS(D) isn't just a war thing. It's a human condition that doesn't need to be an unknown.

I wouldn't fly into the clouds with the right tools and training. So, I wouldn't want to go through an event like this without knowing what is normal and what isn't by someone who is trained in dealing with this kind of cloud.

Opinions are like noses...
 
Mooney Fan said:
As the PIC, if you are involved in a reportable accident, as this was. you need to notify them immediately.
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How soon are you thinking “immediately” is? The only one I know is that you are required to file a report within 10 days.

Is there something else?
 
This is basically what you need to know about reporting an accident/incident:

https://www.ntsb.gov/Pages/Report.aspx

Note that it takes quite a bit to qualify as "substantial damage" for reporting purposes. Most off-field landings are "incidents" not accidents (if you flipped it or had a severe groundloop, it would be an accident). If I was ready to "leave the scene", I'd show the officer these reporting requirements and let him listen when I made the phone call to NTSB, give him my contact info, and wish him a good day. There is really nothing to be gained by waiting for the FAA (or NTSB) to show up hours later.
 
yetti said:
yes. Just like you can refuse on a traffic stop. but expect to go to the jail and have to get a lawyer to work things out. Traffic stops are weird things. You are not technically under arrest, but you are kind of not free to go, but the cop needs Probable Cause to detain you longer than reasonable period.

Back to the plane blocking the roadway. At some level it is your responsibility since you own the plane. Well the Insurance company at this point. At some level it is the first on the scene person's responsibility. In Texas the DPS would own the road closure. https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/TN/htm/TN.546.htm I think we all know what documents we have to produce for the Police or FAA. Always good to review.
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Even the most straight laced, never told a fib in their life type of person should watch that video
 
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