Afraid to maintain an old plane

Ray Jr

Ray Jr

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Am I being crazy?

Im in the market for my first airplane. I want something that can put along at at least 140 knots. My usual trip is 650 miles. I don’t mind multi legs but I don’t want a head wind to double the trip time.

I would like the versatility of a C177 or 182 (tall pilot, likely passengers) but my price range is about 80000 which puts me in the bargain bin of these models. I am tempted to get an RV 6 instead for the simplicity of systems and the fact that it would be 10 years old instead of 65. That really limits the space for people and bags of course.

Is is crazy to assume a 60s model Cessna will be forever a maintenance pig?
 
I'm flying around in an 80 year old airplane. Does it present the occasional challenge?
OH YEAH.
But it's all manageable, and it's rarely down for mechanical issues other than inspections and having to bleed the brakes periodically. Usually a 10-20 minute time hash.
 
Bell206 said:
Based on what?
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Based on everything that’s that old is a maintenance pig?

This will be my first dive into airplane ownership. I read about strange little parts costing like 800 or something to replace. And the plane is a collection of 10,000 of those little parts. As a newbie outsider, seems pretty scary.
 
If you buy one that's sat for a while and has been neglected the first annual might be a little high. But after it's maintained and your A/P knows the plane it's not bad at all. Sure there might be an oddball annual here and there. But not that bad. Usually under 2k.

Need a "what plane should I buy" thread. Planes aren't cars. There's things to look for. There's thing you can do to minimize an expensive annual. Pre-buy...always pre buy.
 
Do you have the funds available is a top overhaul were required in the first couple of years? How about a complete overhaul? How about a prop overhaul?
 
I had the same concerns. Bought the 9 year-old RV. In three months, I've replaced an engine-driven fuel pump, one tire, and I just sent my EFIS in for replacement/upgrade. Moral of the story....if your baseline vehicle maintenance is automobiles, all airplanes are maintenance pigs. I don't regret it for a moment.

I will say that maintenance in the Experimental world appears to be a lot cheaper.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Do you have the funds available is a top overhaul were required in the first couple of years? How about a complete overhaul? How about a prop overhaul?
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Technically yes. But would certainly rather not have to obviously
 
MacFly said:
I had the same concerns. Bought the 9 year-old RV. In three months, I've replaced an engine-driven fuel pump, one tire, and I just sent my EFIS in for replacement/upgrade. Moral of the story....if your baseline vehicle maintenance is automobiles, all airplanes are maintenance pigs. I don't regret it for a moment.

I will say that maintenance in the Experimental world appears to be a lot cheaper.
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Interesting. Which RV did you get?
You went with an RV because you wanted something newer basically?
 
Racerx said:
If you buy one that's sat for a while and has been neglected the first annual might be a little high. But after it's maintained and your A/P knows the plane it's not bad at all. Sure there might be an oddball annual here and there. But not that bad. Usually under 2k.

Need a "what plane should I buy" thread. Planes aren't cars. There's things to look for. There's thing you can do to minimize an expensive annual. Pre-buy...always pre buy.
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That’s reassuring tbh. I would prefer a big comfy 177 RG.
I thought ppl didn’t like the what plane should I buy threads.
 
MacFly said:
I will say that maintenance in the Experimental world appears to be a lot cheaper.
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No doubt about that. I'm in the process of adding ADSB out and while it's dollars ... they are small bucks compared to the certified stuff ...
 
Ray Jr said:
Technically yes. But would certainly rather not have to obviously
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Nobody wants to overhaul. But things happen. They might say 2000 hours. Sometimes they make it there, they often don't. That Cardinal overhaul is good for 25-35k. Actually was looking at the logs on my dads Cherokee Six and it's never made it past 1200 before both overhauls. First was a crank issue, second was due it it only being run for 20 hours in 15 years. Needed an IRAN this year for a cracked accessory case. That was an expensive annual, but prior to that always under 2k. Was looking at a Cherokee 160 that had 30 hours since last major. Sounds good right? But that major was in 97 and the owner lost his medical and it's sat there. So that overhaul doesn't mean much. Could someone luck out and it be OK? Sure. But I'd be prepared to spend 20k on an overhaul if I was to be seriously interested. It's a tough buyers market right now and while I've been looking sporadically myself. I'm really looking for the right project at the right price. And it's just not happening in this market. I'll wait.
 
I’m surprised to be the first. Now that the Cardinal has been mentioned, Buy A Bonanza!
 
Ray Jr said:
That’s reassuring tbh. I would prefer a big comfy 177 RG.
I thought ppl didn’t like the what plane should I buy threads.
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Was sort of said in jest. But the RG adds complexity and maintenance cost because there's more parts. But also the insurance for a retractable low time pilot would be more of a financial hurdle than maintenance on an older plane vs newer. You buy a newer RV, unless you build it yourself you're still taking it to someone for an annual.
 
Crashnburn said:
I’m surprised to be the first. Now that the Cardinal has been mentioned, Buy A Bonanza!
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Was concerned about purchase price AND maintenance. Didn't think it needed to be said.
 
As far as "Putting along". On your 650 nm trip, how often is that really going to be done? The difference between 140knots and 125 knots is what 35 minutes?
 
Ray Jr said:
Interesting. Which RV did you get?
You went with an RV because you wanted something newer basically?
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RV-9A.

I went with an RV because I wanted something that would be fun to fly, easier (and cheaper) to maintain, and newer.

I spent most of this morning with a buddy pulling the EFIS's (EFI?) and sending them off for upgrade. Experimental avionics are very "cost-efficient" to buy, I've found. I confess that I didn't particularly enjoy my time this morning under the panel, but was gratified by what I wasn't paying an A&P.
 

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Ray Jr said:
Im in the market for my first airplane...my price range is about 80000...
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Buying is the cheap part. Based on your wants, I’d tell you to save another few stacks of high society to get a better selection of aircraft that meet your wants.

Bargain bin purchases are that way for a reason and this isn’t exactly the value season for buyers.
 
Racerx said:
As far as "Putting along". On your 650 nm trip, how often is that really going to be done? The difference between 140knots and 125 knots is what 35 minutes?
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The trip would be done once a month hopefully, if the plane is fast enough and the trip can easily be done. Right now it’s a twice a year drive at 17 hours. Barf
 
No, you are not being crazy, BUT... if you are on a budget (as are we all) it is hard to beat a good all metal airplane that has been well maintained with less than 1000 hours SMOH on the engine. If you look for awhile the right airplane will show up at a price you can afford and leave room for some upgrades and repairs. Newer airplanes are more expensive, even if they have the same total hours. They may also be more expensive to maintain because the parts they use are also more expensive, but I admit that may not always be the case.

Everything sooner or later needs tires, brakes, battery, mags, bearings, bushings, etc etc etc. Newer airplanes need them too, just maybe not yet. Airplanes last a long time if properly maintained and flown regularly. It doesn't matter what you buy, how old it is or how new it is, it is likely to bite you sooner or later. The trick is to find a bird that won't bite you too hard. Buy an airplane type that has a proven history of good reliability. Get a good pre-buy, find a mechanic or two you can trust, and do the maintenance as needed. One of the best value areas is an airframe with less than 3000 hours and less than 1000 hours SMOH, if you can find it. That is just my opinion. YMMV

I own a 1964 Mooney (2800 TT) and previously owned a 1968 Cherokee (4800TT) for 14 years. The most expensive single repair was less than $3000. I could have bought both of them at the same time for your $80k budget. So, you know what side if this discussion I'll be on.
 
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TCABM said:
Buying is the cheap part. Based on your wants, I’d tell you to save another few stacks of high society to get a better selection of aircraft that meet your wants.

Bargain bin purchases are that way for a reason and this isn’t exactly the value season for buyers.
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Yes exactly what I’m afraid of. Even though I can afford to buy one, not sure I can afford to buy one
 
Ray Jr said:
The trip would be done once a month hopefully, if the plane is fast enough and the trip can easily be done. Right now it’s a twice a year drive at 17 hours. Barf
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4.6 hours vs 5.1. Lessen the cruise a bit, enjoy flying an extra 30 minutes, and your purchase model list increases. You say passengers plural. Unless you're looking at an RV-10, an RV is only 2 seats.
 
Ray Jr said:
Yes exactly what I’m afraid of. Even though I can afford to buy one, not sure I can afford to buy one
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You’re missing to point. How much are you comfortable spending just to own the plane?

Let’s say you just won AOPA’s RV-10 and someone pays the tax for you, so it really is free to you and essentially new across the board.

How badly do want to pay for a hangar, insurance, and chart subscriptions? How badly do you want to pay for the annual inspection and any required or preventative maintenance such as oil changes? We haven’t even started burning avgas yet.

ETA: it’s kind of like having a kid. Doesn’t usually cost a lot to get, but comes with a lifetime of cost.
 
Racerx said:
4.6 hours vs 5.1. Lessen the cruise a bit, enjoy flying an extra 30 minutes, and your purchase model list increases. You say passengers plural. Unless you're looking at an RV-10, an RV is only 2 seats.
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Yes, that is the sacrifice to get a "new" airplane.
The fight is easy west in the New England region. The headwinds heading west are not to be messed with. The sped is mostly about contending with them.
 
TCABM said:
You’re missing to point. How much are you comfortable spending just to own the plane?

Let’s say you just won AOPA’s RV-10 and someone pays the tax for you, so it really is free to you and essentially new across the board.

How badly do want to pay for a hangar, insurance, and chart subscriptions? How badly do you want to pay for the annual inspection and any required or preventative maintenance such as oil changes? We haven’t even started burning avgas yet.
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I'm comfortable spending as anyone I guess. But if I can avoid a loan on top of that I would like to. That's where the 80k comes in.
 
I fly a 67 year old Cessna. It has the same motor, same prop, burns the same fuel and requires the same maintenance as a plane 30, 40 or even 50 years newer. Unless you buy a turd, maintenance and operating costs aren’t much different.
It’s another I want to cruise fast, haul a ton, have 4 passengers, but don’t have the money for a big turbo prop thread. When reality sets in and you realize that 99% of the time you don’t get anywhere near gross weight, and the extra speed only saves a half hour, and your budget is actually less than you thought, you go buy a decent 182 and live happily thereafter.
 
Ray Jr said:
The trip would be done once a month hopefully, if the plane is fast enough and the trip can easily be done. Right now it’s a twice a year drive at 17 hours. Barf
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That is exact the same reason we bought our first plane. At 125kts with one stop and no wind less than 5.8 hours. At 140kts is less than 5.4 hours. Cherokee 180 or 235, Viking, Mooney, C182, Navion, there are a ton to choose from! Read Buying and Owning Your First Airplane to help you decide.
 
I shall repeat

Buying the airplane is the down payment for airplane maintenance

Certificated parts are crazy expensive.

I own a mode that was manufactured in 1979, I was born a few years before that. We both have parts to be replaced from time to time, the only difference is for the plane I can throw a few credit cards and it’s all good, not so much for my parts though.

Don’t compare car expenses with planes, you will be a tad disappointed.
 
I think you guys answered it. I appreciate all your advice very much. I have lots to think about. Cheers
 
If you're comfortable with and enjoy working on a plane (do you work on your own car?) then the RV or other experimental makes a lot of sense. If not, parts for the RV will cost a lot less but not all A&Ps are willing to work on experimentals, so it may depend on who your mechanic is or will be. Also how often do you really need 4 seats, can you rent for those occasions?

Racerx said:
...You buy a newer RV, unless you build it yourself you're still taking it to someone for an annual.
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But you can do routine maintenance and repairs yourself, without an A&P.
 
Ray Jr said:
Based on everything that’s that old is a maintenance pig?

This will be my first dive into airplane ownership. I read about strange little parts costing like 800 or something to replace. And the plane is a collection of 10,000 of those little parts. As a newbie outsider, seems pretty scary.
Click to expand...
It CAN be that way. We just spent $6K on a part for one of our Cardinals...
 
Dana said:
If you're comfortable with and enjoy working on a plane (do you work on your own car?) then the RV or other experimental makes a lot of sense. If not, parts for the RV will cost a lot less but not all A&Ps are willing to work on experimentals, so it may depend on who your mechanic is or will be. Also how often do you really need 4 seats, can you rent for those occasions?


But you can do routine maintenance and repairs yourself, without an A&P.
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STC's are really expensive. I just bought a G5 Experimental and installed it myself....$1250 all-in. And I can toggle it between HSI and DG.
 
Crashnburn said:
Buy A Bonanza!
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Dang. Beat me to it.

It's a crapshoot. You may find a lower time 177 that will need OH 50 hours after purchase. Or maybe that engine will go 500 past TBO.... I guess it's like others have said - be ready to spend some big $ year one if things start to need replacement/overhaul/repair.
 
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