Advice Needed: DPE conflict of interest

C

CardinalFlyer

Guest
I really don't want to post this publicly for fear of someone I know seeing it and it coming back to haunt me but I need advice. I have been training with a flight school. The flight school is owned by the ONLY DPE available to me. To get another DPE will require that I take a commercial flight to another state. I am ready for my checkride. I have the hours, my instructor says I'm ready, I feel good about it. Everything is good. HOWEVER

I bought a plane so that I don't have to deal with scheduling conflicts at the school, and ever since then the owner of the school / my only DPE option has become very...aggressively opinionated about me. He has told my instructor repeatedly that he needs to make sure I am 100% ready because he's going to be very strict with me. Because I own my own plane (And therefore will not be renting from him after my checkride), he says that he has to be more strict than with a normal candidate who doesn't own a plane and that I need to do everything perfectly or I'll fail.

He refuses to do the checkride in my plane because it's uninsured, which I get, I guess. My ******** detector says that he holds that stance to force me to continue renting his planes, because of his attitude toward money, though. Ever since my plane purchase he has become very aggressive in regards to money. The way we pay here is normally after the lesson via direct deposit into the school's bank account. He texted me last night after 9PM with my total due for the day's lesson and then texted me this morning before the bank was even open reminding me that he's waiting on his money. I have yet to screw him out of money and I don't intend on starting now.

All of this has added up though, and now I really truly don't know what to do about my checkride. Part of me wants to just take a commercial flight elsewhere, fly a few hours with an instructor in the new location, and schedule a ride there to avoid the obvious bias that's happening here. Part of me wants to take the checkride and nail it so that there's nothing to do but pass me. At the end of the day, I know I'm capable, but I fear that this crap has gotten into my head and that I'm not going to perform "perfectly" and will have wasted more money on the plane rental and the DPE only to have to do it again and again until he's satisfied that I'm perfect.

Thoughts? Opinions? Do I go with him, try to do it perfectly, accept my likely failure and try again or do I just bite the bullet, go somewhere else, and get examined by someone who doesn't have pre-conceived biases against me?
 
If you have the means to go elsewhere, do it. A checkride is already enough to worry about and taking it with somebody you already know and don’t trust that they would give you a fair shot doesn’t need to be added to that. No need to waste the time or money on a potential failed checkride there if you feel you would do better with someone else.
 
So rent his plane for the check ride and then wait a couple weeks before paying for it.

Or ask him point blank in his face with other people around if you have ever been late on a payment. Ask him why he is so aggravated about you buying your own plane. If he refuses to answer, or you do not like his answer, move on.
 
CardinalFlyer said:
I really don't want to post this publicly for fear of someone I know seeing it and it coming back to haunt me but I need advice. I have been training with a flight school. The flight school is owned by the ONLY DPE available to me. To get another DPE will require that I take a commercial flight to another state. I am ready for my checkride. I have the hours, my instructor says I'm ready, I feel good about it. Everything is good. HOWEVER

I bought a plane so that I don't have to deal with scheduling conflicts at the school, and ever since then the owner of the school / my only DPE option has become very...aggressively opinionated about me. He has told my instructor repeatedly that he needs to make sure I am 100% ready because he's going to be very strict with me. Because I own my own plane (And therefore will not be renting from him after my checkride), he says that he has to be more strict than with a normal candidate who doesn't own a plane and that I need to do everything perfectly or I'll fail.

He refuses to do the checkride in my plane because it's uninsured, which I get, I guess. My ******** detector says that he holds that stance to force me to continue renting his planes, because of his attitude toward money, though. Ever since my plane purchase he has become very aggressive in regards to money. The way we pay here is normally after the lesson via direct deposit into the school's bank account. He texted me last night after 9PM with my total due for the day's lesson and then texted me this morning before the bank was even open reminding me that he's waiting on his money. I have yet to screw him out of money and I don't intend on starting now.

All of this has added up though, and now I really truly don't know what to do about my checkride. Part of me wants to just take a commercial flight elsewhere, fly a few hours with an instructor in the new location, and schedule a ride there to avoid the obvious bias that's happening here. Part of me wants to take the checkride and nail it so that there's nothing to do but pass me. At the end of the day, I know I'm capable, but I fear that this crap has gotten into my head and that I'm not going to perform "perfectly" and will have wasted more money on the plane rental and the DPE only to have to do it again and again until he's satisfied that I'm perfect.

Thoughts? Opinions? Do I go with him, try to do it perfectly, accept my likely failure and try again or do I just bite the bullet, go somewhere else, and get examined by someone who doesn't have pre-conceived biases against me?
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Go somewhere else. He's making it obvious he doesn't want your business.
 
The more check rides you fail, the more of his “lost” income he “recovers”. You’re a solo student pilot... get your CFI’s approval for a cross country flight to somewhere you can meet up with a different DPE. You don’t need to fly with a new instructor if you’re ready to take the check ride.

Also... there are DPEs who are active airline pilots, and you may be able to find one who can either come to you or meet you somewhere close enough to make it work.
 
I think that I understand the DPE's issues.

You and your plane are uninsured, so all the risk for his instructors who fly with him is on him and his insurance. That is possibly huge, if he has a high deductible, and you have a low net worth. Flying without insurance implies you have nothing to loose, and flying as a student, you are a relatively high risk. I imagine you have gotten a quote for insurance, and the $$$ they want just for liability turned you off.

I suspect that he had hoped to drive you to another school, to alleviate the risk you posed to his schools financial future.

Go to another DPE who does not know of your financial risk, and get your PPL.

Then get insured, as an owner with a PPL, the rates will be much less, and cover the risk all the rest of us have with you flying over us.

I have been through 2 serious events with uninsured parties, and the process is not pleasant for either party. I only lost a car, totaled by a drunk who stole and drove an uninsured car belonging to a man in jail. The drunk also went to jail.

I am surprised that the DPE/Owner of the school allowed his instructors to fly in an uninsured aircraft, period.
 
Everything you’ve written here just screams bad dojo. Don’t play his games.
 
I had a similar but much less antagonistic experience for my PP checkride. My DPE didn't like the way one of the A/Ds had been signed off on my plane by the A&P/IA we were using at the time and wouldn't fly the checkride in it, although the oral portion went very well and got along great. I was on kind of a time schedule for host of reasons and did not want to delay the ride, so he gave me the option of renting one of his 152s and suggested I go fly for 30 minutes first with one of his other instructors who happened to be on the field. He even gave me a break on the rental and instructor rates. The checkride went great, except for the first simulated emergency landing.. the 152 didn't sink near as fast as my Cherokee. He laughed and let me try it again, and passed me with some nice comments.
I found out after the fact that there had been some bad blood in the past between this DPE and the A&P/IA we were using at the time, and I'm guessing that contributed to the nitpicking re/ the AD signoff. In YOUR situation, I'd definitely go elsewhere.
 
Kristin said:
Why would you take a commercial flight and not take your own plane? Have you checked the FAA website for other examiners in the area?
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There is only one other examiner, who happens to be very close with the owner of my school. I plan on talking with my instructor tomorrow to see what he thinks I should do here, as he knows both examiners very well.

DaleB said:
Also... there are DPEs who are active airline pilots, and you may be able to find one who can either come to you or meet you somewhere close enough to make it work.
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This is something I have also considered and I may pursue it.

geezer said:
You and your plane are uninsured, so all the risk for his instructors who fly with him is on him and his insurance. That is possibly huge, if he has a high deductible, and you have a low net worth. Flying without insurance implies you have nothing to loose, and flying as a student, you are a relatively high risk. I imagine you have gotten a quote for insurance, and the $$$ they want just for liability turned you off.
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@geezer, his instructors have never flown in my plane. I have done ALL of my training in his planes. I only bought my own to be able to fly after I'm licensed. I have no problem with him not wanting to fly in my plane, though I still firmly believe his reasoning is BS. My problem is that he is outright telling my instructor that I'm going to be judged more critically than other candidates simply because I own a plane. That just doesn't seem right to me and doesn't make sense anyway.

@MuseChaser I really want this to all be a big misunderstanding and for me to go into the checkride and come out squeaky clean. I just fear that I'm not going to be judged to the same level as other PPL candidates and that I will have spent a thousand bucks for nothing, and have a mark on my record to show for it.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Let’s make this clear. There is no “judging more critical” on an FAA checkride. There is a standard, period.
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let’s be clear that what you said is the policy in a book of regulations. Regulations don’t give checkrides. Humans do and there are definitely variations in standards. Sometimes significant enough the FAA evaluates whether or not the human can be trusted.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
let’s be clear that what you said is the policy in a book of regulations. Regulations don’t give checkrides. Humans do and there are definitely variations in standards. Sometimes significant enough the FAA evaluates whether or not the human can be trusted.
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Exactly. But when you hear a boast or evidence of a DPE “judging more critical” then it’s time to make the FSDO aware of his/her behavior.
 
CardinalFlyer said:
Because I own my own plane (And therefore will not be renting from him after my checkride), he says that he has to be more strict than with a normal candidate who doesn't own a plane and that I need to do everything perfectly or I'll fail.
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And because he is wrong, you should fly with a different DPE.
 
Nope, nope, nope. Get that thing insured, fill it with gas and go elsewhere.
 
CardinalFlyer said:
I really don't want to post this publicly for fear of someone I know seeing it and it coming back to haunt me but I need advice. I have been training with a flight school. The flight school is owned by the ONLY DPE available to me. To get another DPE will require that I take a commercial flight to another state. I am ready for my checkride. I have the hours, my instructor says I'm ready, I feel good about it. Everything is good. HOWEVER

I bought a plane so that I don't have to deal with scheduling conflicts at the school, and ever since then the owner of the school / my only DPE option has become very...aggressively opinionated about me. He has told my instructor repeatedly that he needs to make sure I am 100% ready because he's going to be very strict with me. Because I own my own plane (And therefore will not be renting from him after my checkride), he says that he has to be more strict than with a normal candidate who doesn't own a plane and that I need to do everything perfectly or I'll fail.

He refuses to do the checkride in my plane because it's uninsured, which I get, I guess. My ******** detector says that he holds that stance to force me to continue renting his planes, because of his attitude toward money, though. Ever since my plane purchase he has become very aggressive in regards to money. The way we pay here is normally after the lesson via direct deposit into the school's bank account. He texted me last night after 9PM with my total due for the day's lesson and then texted me this morning before the bank was even open reminding me that he's waiting on his money. I have yet to screw him out of money and I don't intend on starting now.

All of this has added up though, and now I really truly don't know what to do about my checkride. Part of me wants to just take a commercial flight elsewhere, fly a few hours with an instructor in the new location, and schedule a ride there to avoid the obvious bias that's happening here. Part of me wants to take the checkride and nail it so that there's nothing to do but pass me. At the end of the day, I know I'm capable, but I fear that this crap has gotten into my head and that I'm not going to perform "perfectly" and will have wasted more money on the plane rental and the DPE only to have to do it again and again until he's satisfied that I'm perfect.

Thoughts? Opinions? Do I go with him, try to do it perfectly, accept my likely failure and try again or do I just bite the bullet, go somewhere else, and get examined by someone who doesn't have pre-conceived biases against me?
Click to expand...

Get rid of the Cardinal so he won’t hold that against you. Sell it to me for say $10,000. After your checkride I’ll sell it right back to you for the $10,000. I promise
 
Go elsewhere, but GET INSURED. Personally I wouldn’t get near your plane without insurance. It’s not just the hull physical damage that is the issue, it’s liability. If you damage another plane/injure or kill another person the lawyers are coming for you. Insurance covers that. I’m a claims adjuster, i deal with real world cases every day, have had claims on checkrides. It ain’t pretty.

If you take the stance of “insurance is a waste of money” then hey, you better have a mid 6 figure reserve of cash in case the S^&*t hits the fan.
 
Mid 6 figures is likely not enough. One can easily do millions of dollars of damage with wrongful deaths in an airplane accident.

I assume the OP intends to insure after he can fly the plane as PIC with his private certificate.
 
Go somewhere else. I think that’s the consensus. Come back on here next week and tell us you’re scheduled. Then again when you passed. Congrats on being almost done. It’s not a small investment of time, money, and self.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Mid 6 figures is likely not enough. One can easily do millions of dollars of damage with wrongful deaths in an airplane accident.

I assume the OP intends to insure after he can fly the plane as PIC with his private certificate.
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Yes, exactly. I have tried to get insurance and was basically told to come back after I'm licensed. For now she's just sitting there waiting on me :(
 
Someone explain uninsured to me?

I bought a brand new 172 with 8 hours in my book and the CFI that finished my training (12k hours; GIV typed; C130 typed retired military pilot) had zero issues flying with me...the DPE had ZERO issue getting in the aircraft with me...

The school I started my training had HUGE issues flying with me...

It was all about them not renting an aircraft to me...
 
Doc Holliday said:
Exactly. But when you hear a boast or evidence of a DPE “judging more critical” then it’s time to make the FSDO aware of his/her behavior.
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You're right... but I'd bet lunch that not a single soul would be able to remember the DPE ever saying any such thing... since they all work for him.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Mid 6 figures is likely not enough. One can easily do millions of dollars of damage with wrongful deaths in an airplane accident.
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What you point out about insurance will always be a risk. Even if you have millions of $ of coverage, a single accident always has the possibility of liability exceeding your coverage. I always say that the more insurance you have, the more likely you will be sued. Lawyers won't usually work for free if they think there is no money to recover. They love deep pockets.
 
CardinalFlyer said:
Yes, exactly. I have tried to get insurance and was basically told to come back after I'm licensed. For now she's just sitting there waiting on me :(
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Interesting. I bought my cherokee before I took the checkride, and did about half my training in it, including solos. Never had a problem getting insurance, altho expensive. I suggest you contact Falcon in Kerrville, TX. I’ve been with them for 20yrs.
 
murphey said:
Interesting. I bought my cherokee before I took the checkride, and did about half my training in it, including solos. Never had a problem getting insurance, altho expensive. I suggest you contact Falcon in Kerrville, TX. I’ve been with them for 20yrs.
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It has been many years, and I know the insurance industry has changed since I was a student pilot. However, I did the same thing. My first plane was a PA-38 Tomahawk that I did my primary training in. I had it insured with Avemco. I even leased it back to the fbo for others to rent and made sure it would be covered on my Avemco policy. I have no idea if this is relevant in today's insurance market.
 
murphey said:
Interesting. I bought my cherokee before I took the checkride, and did about half my training in it, including solos. Never had a problem getting insurance, altho expensive. I suggest you contact Falcon in Kerrville, TX. I’ve been with them for 20yrs.
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yup i got a great rate for a tailwheel plane and zero TW time w them...
 
murphey said:
Interesting. I bought my cherokee before I took the checkride, and did about half my training in it, including solos. Never had a problem getting insurance, altho expensive. I suggest you contact Falcon in Kerrville, TX. I’ve been with them for 20yrs.
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Did the same thing with my Skyhawk, was no issue.
 
Get the airplane insured and fly to another location for the check ride.
 
One interpretation of what the DPE said, is as soon as you say you have your own airplane, some areas of the checkride are going to get extra emphasis. Airworthiness requirement, inspections, owner responsibilities. This probably shouldn’t happen,but I am sure it does to some degree.

Depending on the how the school is set up. While it shouldn’t happen, I can see that check rides with students that they know are going to continue training (Instrument) under the supervision of their instructors might get slightly preferential treatment, even though it shouldn’t happen. The examiner may have been saying this to his instructor without actually saying it.

Examiners are required to have the FAA observe a number of checkrides. This can happen unannounced.
Another option is you could talk the FSDO about your concerns and invite them to show up unannounced to observe and make sure the checkride is fair. They would love the invitation, it shows a compliance attitude on your part, “ I don’t mind you watching how I perform, because there is nothing wrong with it, and you can help me fix it if there is”.

There is also the possibility that you have done or said something that makes the examiner think you might a bit of an Anti-authority Attitude or other hazardous attitude and he is a bit concerned that if something happens after the checkride, that there is not any question the with he tested you if someone starts asking.

The examiner does not want to fail you. Ask what he charges for retests. It is usually minimal. A failure goes against his instructor as much or more than it goes against you. It is advantages for CFI’s to have at least a 80% pass rate for easy renewal of their certifcaties.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
CardinalFlyer said:
Yes, exactly. I have tried to get insurance and was basically told to come back after I'm licensed. For now she's just sitting there waiting on me :(
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Sounds like you need a better insurance broker too.

At least get ground not-in-motion coverage on her, in case a tornado or drunk idiot in a truck come along and skooshes your new plane where it sits.
 
CardinalFlyer said:
Yes, exactly. I have tried to get insurance and was basically told to come back after I'm licensed. For now she's just sitting there waiting on me :(
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This is strange. I purchased a 1969 Cardinal pre-solo and my subsequent training in it. No problem obtaining insurance. My rates dropped some with a certificate, more experience, and an instrument rating, but not even 30%.

As others have said, try a different insurance broker perhaps.
 
Some students, locations, planes, credit profiles, age profiles, sex profiles, or combinations thereof are simply not insurable. I assure you, I have tried to insure the plane. Before purchasing, I spent literally months trying to get estimates on coverage and was told to pound sand by each and every broker. Something about me, my location, my choice of plane, my blood type, something... is simply not worth the risk of coverage according to everyone, including Avemco. I assure you, I've tried and do not enjoy owning an expensive piece of machinery with no coverage.

I was told that my best case might be to transfer the ownership to a business and get business coverage on the plane. No, I'm not joking...

Thank you to everyone for your advice. I will think some more on my options. You've all been very helpful.
 
Welcome to the corrupt cronyistic process that is the designation system. I was fortunate that the DPE available in our area was not only fair but eager to fly in the Navion.
 
frfly172 said:
Get the airplane insured and fly to another location for the check ride.
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This. You're going to need insurance so get it. If necessary insure the plane without you as a PIC. Find an independent CFI and work them to get yourself up to speed in your plane. Then fly with the CFI it to where the DPE is and take the ride.

I did instruments in my own plane and I flew myself two states away for my checkride because that was the closest DPE I could find that fit my schedule.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
This. You're going to need insurance so get it. If necessary insure the plane without you as a PIC. Find an independent CFI and work them to get yourself up to speed in your plane. Then fly with the CFI it to where the DPE is and take the ride.

I did instruments in my own plane and I flew myself two states away for my checkride because that was the closest DPE I could find that fit my schedule.
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Or just get a CC signoff for the ride which is what I did.
 
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