advice for handling A&P shop

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traumamed

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traumamed
Longtime lurker, first-time poster. I hoped my first post would be something more positive, but I need some advice. I think I'm being run through the ringer by an A&P shop. A plane I bought eight months ago hasn't once left the ground with me in it yet. I bought it sight-unseen (bad mistake, lesson learned) on the other side of the country. I hired an A&P shop local to the area who had experience with this experimental type to do the prebuy, and the previous owner flew it to them. They found a few little things here and there, nothing major. I closed the deal. I then hired this same shop to fix what they had found and to do a $25K avionics upgrade.

Almost immediately, more stuff started turning up. Somehow they hadn't noticed the nose wheel was severely corroded, or that the wheel fairings scraped the wheels. Ok fine, fix that too. My pickup day arrives (five months ago) so I fly in. When I get there, they inform me the engine is leaking from the front crank seal, the landing light is inop, and the cowl flap motors are inop. None of this was in the pre-buy or had ever been mentioned to me before. The mains are both nearly flat. The left aileron scrapes the wing because the tolerance is too tight. There is a gaping hole in the panel where they had pulled an old component as part of the avionics upgrade, but didn't do anything to cover the resulting hole. The top of the dash fell off in my lap when I pulled on it because it wasn't affixed to the airframe or instrument panel. I fire it up and discover the throttle sticks and tries to spring back to ~1600 RPM whenever trying to close it beyond that. The charge system voltage is reading high. Neither COM radio works (and a GPS/NAV/COM was part of the upgrade). I notice the flaps are set to be fully retracted, but aren't aligned with the wing trailing edge.

I deem the plane unairworthy. I ask them how they missed all this stuff on the prebuy and they tell me "it wasn't apparent." I didn't even bring up the shoddy panel work. Reluctantly, I hire them to fix most of this stuff, because, well, I can't fly it anywhere else. More stuff starts popping up as the weeks go by. They say the brake system has multiple issues and needs a complete overhaul. Ok fine, rebuild the entire brake system. Pickup day #2 was supposed to be this Monday, but after booking travel, I get a call two days ago that the brakes "catastrophically failed" on a taxi test and the plane won't be ready. "And oh by the way, the right-seat PFD is having bootup issues now. We'll call you with more details tomorrow." Two days go by, no follow-up call.

I'm exasperated. I'm out several tens of thousands of dollars beyond my purchase price on a plane I probably wouldn't have bought had I known its true condition. That's water under the bridge I guess. The question now is how do I deal with this shop? The plane isn't airworthy to fly somewhere else.
 
It’s an experimental, is there a type forum for it? Like mooneyspace, beechtalk, etc…that may have expertise to help?
I would post airport and shop name, maybe someone either has direct experience or is local and can act as your eyes and ears.
I hope you haven’t been paying as you go, ultimately withholding payment is your only leverage other than reporting them to FAA or BBB.

When I bought my plane, I used a buyers broker (I hired a local broker to represent me). Still, my prebuy missed a bad muffler and gearbox issue I discovered on my flight home.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
It’s an experimental, is there a type forum for it? Like mooneyspace, beechtalk, etc…that may have expertise to help?
I would post airport and shop name, maybe someone either has direct experience or is local and can act as your eyes and ears.
I hope you haven’t been paying as you go, ultimately withholding payment is your only leverage other than reporting them to FAA or BBB.

When I bought my plane, I used a buyers broker (I hired a local broker to represent me). Still, my prebuy missed a bad muffler and gearbox issue I discovered on my flight home.
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I'm not quite ready to post the name of the shop or the airport yet since this remains an unresolved situation and I'm trying not to make things worse. Unfortunately yes, I have been paying as things have come up. I have a small outstanding balance, but it's a drop in the bucket. There is a type forum for the aircraft and I am active on that forum, although the membership is small. It has been helpful in terms of gaining a better understanding of the workings of the aircraft. Most of the folks active on there are current or recent builders. They may be able to help me get some of the build quality issues sorted eventually, like the flap alignment and aileron tolerances, but step one is getting the plane into a flyable condition, which this shop seems unable to do despite being on a continuous money infusion.
 
Sorry, that is a rough start. I imagine the seller is of no help?
 
traumamed said:
I hired an A&P shop local to the area who had experience with this experimental type to do the prebuy,
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Seems atypical for a shop experienced with the experimental type. Makes one suspect the depth of that experience. With experimentals, I believe a builder is the best choice.
 
traumamed said:
I deem the plane unairworthy. I ask them how they missed all this stuff on the prebuy .
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It's easy! There is no standard scope and detail for inspection items on a "prebuy." Did you not tell them everything you wanted checked? Otherwise, a "prebuy" can range from a glorified preflight inspection to ? ? ?

The question now is how do I deal with this shop? The plane isn't airworthy to fly somewhere else.
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If necessary, get a ferry permit. Good luck.
 
traumamed said:
The question now is how do I deal with this shop?
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To be blunt, my recommendation would be to pay your bill and go get your aircraft either with a trailer or take someone with you to make it flyable. Cant comment on the rest of the post as we only have one side of a two sided story. And I'll leave it at that. Good luck.
 
As an experimental you can fix all those issues yourself. You do need an A&P to sign off on a condition inspection once a year but you are allowed to fix/fabricate/repair anything you want on the plane yourself. I would suggest trailering the plane home, finding a local EAA chapter and seeing if there are any A&Ps in it that would be willing to work with you to sign off on the condition inspection after you fix the issues yourself. Also note that it only needs to be an A&P to sign off on the condition inspection. They do not need their IA like in the certified world.
 
sourdough44 said:
Sorry, that is a rough start. I imagine the seller is of no help?
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Nope, other than to basically say "sorry that sucks, I thought the plane was fine."

martym said:
It's easy! There is no standard scope and detail for inspection items on a "prebuy." Did you not tell them everything you wanted checked? Otherwise, a "prebuy" can range from a glorified preflight inspection to ? ? ?
If necessary, get a ferry permit. Good luck.
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I did explain to them that I was purchasing sight-unseen so they were to be my eyes and ears. I'm not sure that my $1,500 even paid for a glorified preflight based on what I found when I got there. I don't need a ferry permit fortunately. Technically it hasn't been "declared" unairworthy by anyone but me, but there is no way to safely fly it. The brakes don't work. They did when I was there in November, but they don't now. I have no idea if the COMs work yet, but it's at a Class C airport and home base is a Class C airport so I need COM to fly. I guess I could figure out a way to get it into another hangar at that airport, but there's no way that shop is letting me or a third party I hire go in there and use their hangar to do my own work.

Bell206 said:
To be blunt, my recommendation would be to pay your bill and go get your aircraft either with a trailer or take someone with you to make it flyable. Cant comment on the rest of the post as we only have one side of a two sided story. And I'll leave it at that. Good luck.
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Yeah, one of the options I'm considering if I can't work things out with this place. And I understand your skepticism, I'm some rando on the other side of the internet who is an unknown on this site.
 
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traumamed said:
I did explain to them that I was purchasing sight-unseen so they were to be my eyes and ears.
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Particularly if they knew your profession, they may have seen dollar signs lighting up in front of them based on what you say that you explained and asked of them. Fairly based or not, it is possible there may be commonly perceived ideas floating around that tie a particular profession together with private aviation.

traumamed said:
I have no idea if the COMs work yet, but it's at a Class C airport and home base is a Class C airport so I need COM to fly.
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Handheld radio at least as a backup if your COM goes out while in the air?

traumamed said:
I then hired this same shop to fix what they had found and to do a $25K avionics upgrade.
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Hindsight is 20/20. Live and learn. Next time get the aircraft home as the main priority and then work with a local shop.

Have you considered hiring an experienced commercial pilot to pick up the aircraft and fly it back to you? If the brakes can be made to work then perhaps a good commercial pilot will be able to make do with the radios using a handheld?

What is the total $$$ you have sunk in so far? What was the purchase price? What is the total you have paid to the shop so far inclusive everything? Just trying to get an idea. May not be relevant. $$$ mean different things to different people as obviously we all have our unique financial circumstances.

How far (nm) is the airport where the aircraft is currently located to your homebase airport?
 
.

How long is your runway and how many feet does that plane need to land/roll to a stop?

Oh wait-it’s experimental just throw a parachute out the window after you land!

sorry for joking about but bell above is correct, get the plane away from those people

or, take a week off and live at their shop
 
traumamed said:
I bought it sight-unseen (bad mistake, lesson learned) on the other side of the country.
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This is what the rest of us should learn not to do^^^^^^^^^ Why wouldn't you go look at it in person especially as soon as it got to the shop that was going do the prebuy?

Sorry about your troubles but I bet the shop barely looked at it at first since you weren't there showing interest?

I thought experimental were cheaper to maintain? Although I bet not that much cheaper to repair/buy parts for?
Sorry I am not helping, just surprised you didn't look at it yourself before even sending it to a pre buy shop.
Sounds like a wore out experimental that might not have been a good build to begin with?
I still think you need to get out there in person and get this situation under control with a trusted mechanic if need be if your not comfortable calling the shots yourself.
Good luck.
 
traumamed said:
Yeah, one of the options I'm considering if I can't work things out with this place.
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I think you are beyond "working" things out at this point if not at an earlier point. But its your money.
traumamed said:
And I understand your skepticism, I'm some rando on the other side of the internet who is an unknown on this site.
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Its a bit more than that. Been in aircraft maintenance for 40+ years and involved in a number of similar scenarios both directly and indirectly. Your narrative is simply vague and typical. Use this as a learning experience and move on.
 
If the purpose of a pre buy is to identify only the apparent issues, why does one need a pre buy.
 
Clip4 said:
If the purpose of a pre buy is to identify only the apparent issues, why does one need a pre buy.
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You don’t need a prebuy for some of the things the OP describes: panel falling off, throttle sticking, etc.
I would only used prebuy to find the most expensive issues, like corrosion, engine, etc, a test flight before making an offer would identified these issues…oh well.
 
Almost every PB begins with; “ How much for a PB?” . Seldom heard is how
much it takes to do a thorough investigation.

The Buyer should determine the areas the PB should focus on. “Any corrosion?”
can involve tank removal and really in - depth ( and co$tly) inspection.

All PBS vary depending on many factors.My thought is it’s best to involve the
“Gaining Tech” in the process as much as possible. This can save a lot down the road.

One PB needed to be done in a hangar with the entire floor covered in ice.
If done a couple weeks earlier during the Annual or later after when Spring arrives
the task would have been much easier and safer. The Buyer wanted it NOW though.
 
traumamed said:
Longtime lurker, first-time poster. I hoped my first post would be something more positive, but I need some advice. I think I'm being run through the ringer by an A&P shop. A plane I bought eight months ago hasn't once left the ground with me in it yet. I bought it sight-unseen (bad mistake, lesson learned) on the other side of the country. I hired an A&P shop local to the area who had experience with this experimental type to do the prebuy, and the previous owner flew it to them. They found a few little things here and there, nothing major. I closed the deal. I then hired this same shop to fix what they had found and to do a $25K avionics upgrade.

Almost immediately, more stuff started turning up. Somehow they hadn't noticed the nose wheel was severely corroded, or that the wheel fairings scraped the wheels. Ok fine, fix that too. My pickup day arrives (five months ago) so I fly in. When I get there, they inform me the engine is leaking from the front crank seal, the landing light is inop, and the cowl flap motors are inop. None of this was in the pre-buy or had ever been mentioned to me before. The mains are both nearly flat. The left aileron scrapes the wing because the tolerance is too tight. There is a gaping hole in the panel where they had pulled an old component as part of the avionics upgrade, but didn't do anything to cover the resulting hole. The top of the dash fell off in my lap when I pulled on it because it wasn't affixed to the airframe or instrument panel. I fire it up and discover the throttle sticks and tries to spring back to ~1600 RPM whenever trying to close it beyond that. The charge system voltage is reading high. Neither COM radio works (and a GPS/NAV/COM was part of the upgrade). I notice the flaps are set to be fully retracted, but aren't aligned with the wing trailing edge.

I deem the plane unairworthy. I ask them how they missed all this stuff on the prebuy and they tell me "it wasn't apparent." I didn't even bring up the shoddy panel work. Reluctantly, I hire them to fix most of this stuff, because, well, I can't fly it anywhere else. More stuff starts popping up as the weeks go by. They say the brake system has multiple issues and needs a complete overhaul. Ok fine, rebuild the entire brake system. Pickup day #2 was supposed to be this Monday, but after booking travel, I get a call two days ago that the brakes "catastrophically failed" on a taxi test and the plane won't be ready. "And oh by the way, the right-seat PFD is having bootup issues now. We'll call you with more details tomorrow." Two days go by, no follow-up call.

I'm exasperated. I'm out several tens of thousands of dollars beyond my purchase price on a plane I probably wouldn't have bought had I known its true condition. That's water under the bridge I guess. The question now is how do I deal with this shop? The plane isn't airworthy to fly somewhere else.
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can you pull the wings and transport it closer to you or to a shop that is known to do work on this type of plane?
 
Like Bell206 pointed out, we only got a small part of the story. I am sorry for the OP, wish it wasn't this way for them. Hard to imagine the seller misrepresenting the plane so much.

Wonder if the plane was bought from the original builder? How old was the plane?

I hope the OP doesn't disappear from this post which happens so many times.
 
Gary Ward said:
Hard to imagine the seller misrepresenting the plane so much.
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I have an aircraft which was very much misrepresented. It is what it is. If I wanted something with a money back guarantee then I would buy factory new.

Used car. Used house. Used boat. Used airplane. You take your chances.

Another aircraft I purchased turned out to be an awesome deal. Both times I had people far more experienced and expert than I was assisting with the sale and pre-buy and inspection. I also had far more experienced pilots picking up and flying the aircraft back. There is still a limit as to what can be discovered. Doesn't mean I was not onsite for everything but I certainly was not the one trying to pretend to have knowledge far in excess of my own reality.
 
I wanted a 182. A friend lost his medical and asked me to fly one of his planes which was a 172 shortly after I got my PPL. I got to "test" fly it for 6 months and helped with the annual inspection which showed the plane to be in good shape. I decided it was a sure bet and a OK plane to start out with. So I made him an offer and he accepted it. It even came with a AP/IA that helps me maintain it. I could not turn down that deal. Hopefully some day I will find a 182 to purchase? But it won't be from the other side of the country.
 
^ I have found it is smarter to spend more to buy a plane closer to where you live. Thousands more actually.
I ferry airplanes as a side hustle. I have never picked up a plane that was in the stated condition.
Factor in a Ray Charles pre buy like the OP paid for, flying yourself and maybe your own mechanic to see it, deal with the pressure/cost of rejecting multiple candidates, etc. Assuming you can haggle the details of the squawk items then you have the cost of the ferry flight.
Unless it's an extremely rare aircraft, just wait for a nearby example to pop up.
Oh, and why on earth would you pay someone on the other side of the country huge money to do a panel upgrade?
 
aftCG said:
I ferry airplanes as a side hustle. I have never picked up a plane that was in the stated condition.
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Neither have I. But I’m convinced that is often as much a problem with the buyer not knowing what they’re looking at as it is with the seller not knowing what they really have. What is “nice” to one person is often mediocre or downright garbage to another.
 
I don't buy high dollar items sight unseen (houses, cars, planes, motorcycles, etc.) as that is a great way to get burnt. As the situation currently stands I vote with those that say go get it and take it where qualified people can do the needed repairs and get an A&P to sign the condition inspection.

A friend recently bought a plane sight unseen. When the plane was delivered those of us that looked it over were very impressed with the build quality and maintenance that had been done. But that's an exception, not the rule. There is no way on this planet that I'm spending large $$$ for something I have not at least looked at with my own two eyes.
 
To answer some of the above questions: The aircraft was completed in 2013, has ~300 hours on it, ~40 hours since IRAN (case crack was discovered by the previous owner's A&P so the PO IRAN'ed it), and the PO purchased from the original builder in 2018. The PO's stated reason for selling was that he barely used the aircraft and due to his family size, needed a different aircraft for his mission. As far as the ground transport option goes, I have been advised that removing and reattaching the one-piece wing for ground transport would be a much bigger undertaking than I first thought and may not be the most economical solution.

As to the "What were you thinking buying it sight-unseen on the other side of the country" questions. This is not my first purchase of a big ticket item sight-unseen. I took what I believed were appropriate precautions by vetting the seller, verifying the history of the aircraft, and hiring what I thought was an honest and experienced maintenance shop to inspect the aircraft on my behalf and advise on its condition. This general approach has worked well for me on multiple acquisitions of vehicles, boats, and even a vacation house. I realize that things break, and when you buy used, you take some risks. Had something broken on the way home or 10-20 hours into my time with the aircraft, then I could accept these things happen. I have had catastrophic failures on brand new cars before. Complex machines break sometimes, that's life. But I haven't so much as taken one flight in this plane. Things seem to be magically breaking just by sitting in the hangar at this shop, and the "repairs" seem to be making things worse.

This is my first aircraft purchase and based on the responses here, the aircraft market is obviously caveat emptor. That apparently extends to licensed and credentialed A&P facilities. Lesson learned. I assumed a field as strictly regulated and high-stakes as aviation would have more reputable players. Clearly this was a very bad assumption to make. In any case, being reminded of what an idiot I am is not productive to working a solution.

Thank you all for your input. It seems I will have to figure out a way to get local boots on the ground to help get this situation under control.
 
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It seems there are a few shops that do pre-purchase and miss MAJOR items. There is a story here about a guy who bought a Mooney. The shop did the PPI knowing that if he purchased, it would become an annual. They were supposed to do the full annual inspection. But seems they missed MAJOR corrosion, after he purchased.
 
Pinecone said:
It seems there are a few shops that do pre-purchase and miss MAJOR items. There is a story here about a guy who bought a Mooney. The shop did the PPI knowing that if he purchased, it would become an annual. They were supposed to do the full annual inspection. But seems they missed MAJOR corrosion, after he purchased.
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Yes I think I stumbled on his post while I was researching other posts about what people stuck in similarly unfortunate situations have done. I saw another about a gentleman who bought a terminally corroded Cherokee as well. Awful situations, and my heart goes out to those folks.

My plane is glass, so thankfully corrosion is much less of a concern. Fortunately the airframe itself looked ok when I was there. The paint could use some work, but there were no signs of delamination, poor bonding, or other issues that would condemn the airframe, at least to my untrained eye. It's all systems-related items keeping it grounded. This does give me hope that once I can get the thing right enough to get out from under these guys who have it now, that it still might ultimately work out to be a good airplane.
 
traumamed said:
Longtime lurker, first-time poster. I hoped my first post would be something more positive, but I need some advice. I think I'm being run through the ringer by an A&P shop. A plane I bought eight months ago hasn't once left the ground with me in it yet. I bought it sight-unseen (bad mistake, lesson learned) on the other side of the country. I hired an A&P shop local to the area who had experience with this experimental type to do the prebuy, and the previous owner flew it to them. They found a few little things here and there, nothing major. I closed the deal. I then hired this same shop to fix what they had found and to do a $25K avionics upgrade.

Almost immediately, more stuff started turning up. Somehow they hadn't noticed the nose wheel was severely corroded, or that the wheel fairings scraped the wheels. Ok fine, fix that too. My pickup day arrives (five months ago) so I fly in. When I get there, they inform me the engine is leaking from the front crank seal, the landing light is inop, and the cowl flap motors are inop. None of this was in the pre-buy or had ever been mentioned to me before. The mains are both nearly flat. The left aileron scrapes the wing because the tolerance is too tight. There is a gaping hole in the panel where they had pulled an old component as part of the avionics upgrade, but didn't do anything to cover the resulting hole. The top of the dash fell off in my lap when I pulled on it because it wasn't affixed to the airframe or instrument panel. I fire it up and discover the throttle sticks and tries to spring back to ~1600 RPM whenever trying to close it beyond that. The charge system voltage is reading high. Neither COM radio works (and a GPS/NAV/COM was part of the upgrade). I notice the flaps are set to be fully retracted, but aren't aligned with the wing trailing edge.

I deem the plane unairworthy. I ask them how they missed all this stuff on the prebuy and they tell me "it wasn't apparent." I didn't even bring up the shoddy panel work. Reluctantly, I hire them to fix most of this stuff, because, well, I can't fly it anywhere else. More stuff starts popping up as the weeks go by. They say the brake system has multiple issues and needs a complete overhaul. Ok fine, rebuild the entire brake system. Pickup day #2 was supposed to be this Monday, but after booking travel, I get a call two days ago that the brakes "catastrophically failed" on a taxi test and the plane won't be ready. "And oh by the way, the right-seat PFD is having bootup issues now. We'll call you with more details tomorrow." Two days go by, no follow-up call.

I'm exasperated. I'm out several tens of thousands of dollars beyond my purchase price on a plane I probably wouldn't have bought had I known its true condition. That's water under the bridge I guess. The question now is how do I deal with this shop? The plane isn't airworthy to fly somewhere else.
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Any advice I gave you would likely get you arrested so I’ll refrain.
 
Remove wing, ship the plane to another A&P. Somewhere fairly near you that’s less than a 1 hour car ride from you.

Local EAA chapter likely has some knowledgeable and friendly people willing to jump in the deep end with you. That way you might be able to keep it closer and work on it with others.
 
traumamed said:
This is my first aircraft purchase and based on the responses here, the aircraft market is obviously caveat emptor. That apparently extends to licensed and credentialed A&P facilities. Lesson learned. I assumed a field as strictly regulated and high-stakes as aviation would have more reputable players. Clearly this was a very bad assumption to make. In any case, being reminded of what an idiot I am is not productive to working a solution.
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I certainly never meant to insinuate that you were any less than an honorable & trustworthy person. Apologies if I came across otherwise.

Many years ago I was very much like you. My flight instructor was warning me about scams in aircraft buying as I was looking for one to purchase. My statement was much like yours in that I believed in the integrity of pilots, the processes put in place to assure the safety of aircraft that were available, etc. I was told that I was very naïve and to get a grip. He told me that there are people that would count the money you handed them and walk away as you crashed into the trees upon departure.

In the years I've been building, buying, selling and watching others do the same I've concluded that he was harsh in his words but absolutely correct. But to the credit of most of us that get caught flat footed in a raw deal it is enough to say that years ago the world, while still corrupt, wasn't quite as much as now. Used to be a man's word was his bond and a handshake could seal a deal. Now it takes lawyers, contracts, and a court battle and even then you might just toss good money after bad.

This is not to say that there are not honorable people out there, but it seems they are getting harder to find ...
 
Do you have your local mechanic lined up yet? It might be time to get a third party involved. Savvy would be another possibility, but not sure how much they do in the experimental world.
 
Lol - my first Mooney about 39 years ago had a “thorough” pre buy and the very reputable San Diego FBO missed a cracked engine case.

A P51, “reputable” mechanic who had gone to test pilot school in Van Nuys replaced an overhauled engine on an airplane of mine and only hand tightened the spark plugs along with several other large misses.

An FBO in Hawthorne did several “pre buys” for friends of mine which included little more than holding up a thumb at the plane and charging a steep price.

A mechanic in Chino installed a doubler plate on a Seneca I own bucking the rivets himself while reportedly heavily on the bottle bucking his own rivets - did you know you could stuff two rivets in the same hole? I didnt. Neither does the FAA, but they still haven’t taken his ticket away.

A pre buy ideally is an annual inspection on certified airplanes by a paranoid, detail oriented mechanic that converts to an annual upon completion. The same thing should apply to experimentals as a conditional inspection of type worked on by the IA. If I pay for such an annual and the same shop hires discovers several other discrepancies, I would take issue with their annual billing, creation of legal liability and if inflexible in their. I’m king and accountability, I would take it to the FSDO after finding the appropriate inspector. This works with airplane factories too, to positive results.

As a consumer, hiring someone who represents themselves as a proper maintenance shop of specific experience is great…and taking your money to perform work does create some liability by then to you. If the scope of your ask was incomplete or poorly documented, regrets in your loss of dollars.

I do business with repeat customers extending a warm hand, over delivering and under promising - but as a consumer it’s handy to have an attorney on speed dial.


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Paid $25k for avionics on a plane you never flown or seen?

Is it April 1st again?

Sorry but you broke all the rules of common sense. Hope your checkbook can handle your tuition for your semester at the school of common sense.
 
What sort of plane is this? I can't think of a glass plane with a one piece wing.
 
Cheap route - one way or another, bring the airplane home. Join EAA and get help fixing it. Lots of people build aircraft from scratch. If you can use a screwdriver, you have the mechanical ability to learn the rest.
 
pfarber said:
Paid $25k for avionics on a plane you never flown or seen?

Is it April 1st again?

Sorry but you broke all the rules of common sense. Hope your checkbook can handle your tuition for your semester at the school of common sense.
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Hmmm nah.

I had a “budget conscious” first time airplane owner that dropped by our now busy little paint shop to have his Cherokee redressed. Nice man. I’d even call him a friend now.

An avionics shop down the street sold him a used 430 takeout with no 8130 and indicator.

The cost installed?

A cool $12k. A month ago. And that’s a steal compared to some of the stick ups I’ve seen lately from some shops. I’ve bought complete flying airplanes for less…I saw another customer be charged $22k and be without a plane 8 months for a simple Dynon 3 screen install.

I think I pooped the 430/106 harness in a day and threw in an audio panel. The Dynon took us 3.

Plenty an eager new pilot with some cash or credit in their pocket. Can’t blame their desires, but it does present opportunity for unscrupulous, or capitalistic shops who may not care about follow on business.

Nothing wrong with a buyer who wants to spend $25k on a panel. I’ve seen them dump $80-100k in a blink on brand G.

Give me a skanky tailbeacon, two round dials, a handheld radio, a 15 year old gps and an eyepatch anyday and I’ll spend the remaining $100k on hookers and blow going everywhere :) (ducking and running) “I was just kidding, honey!”


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pfarber said:
Paid $25k for avionics on a plane you never flown or seen?

Is it April 1st again?

Sorry but you broke all the rules of common sense. Hope your checkbook can handle your tuition for your semester at the school of common sense.
Click to expand...

I noticed the date before reading and got half way through before thinking it HAD to be this ^^ .. It's definitely an sad story otherwise.
 
Fact is there is no such thing as a "pre-buy" inspection, it's a made up thing. There is no regulatory guidance or stated procedures as to what it is supposed to encompass and in most cases it's nothing more than a short conversation between the prospective buyer and whoever he choses to do the look-see. In the OP's scenario what should have been done is an annual (or in this case conditional) inspection with an agreement between the parties that if passed the sale is made. Even if it does not pass there is still a logbook entry with a signature, the inspection is complete and not due for another calendar year and a list of discrepancies exists which the two parties can negotiate over.

I know this doesn't help the OP but people need to get this whole pre-buy nonsense out of their heads or at least understand that this entire concept of buying a machine like this (sight unseen) is a crapshoot and be prepared for the possible consequences.

To the OP: sorry, I don't mean to be harsh on you personally. You should have been told this beforehand. My only advice now is follow Bell206's advice - get it out of that shop, lick your wounds and regroup.
 
Owners need to be aware, send 3 mechanics out to inspect an airplane and they will likely find 3 separate issues. Send them out again and I bet they find more. IMO, its not realistic to count on an inspection coming back clean since it was just inspected a few days before.

I cant tell you how many times I saw an airplane get walked by 5-6 people (plus a dedicated inspector) when it rolled into a hangar. It gets worked all night by those people. Then as the same group pushes it out of the hangar to start its flying day, more issues are found.
 
I've been telling the potential buyers of my aircraft that:
  1. I have represented it honestly and to the best of my ability.
  2. It is very possible that something big could break the minute they take possession.
  3. That purchasing any aircraft is a risk, and you have to be ready to write big checks. Just how it is.
I feel badly for @traumamed , but that's just how it goes. The situation could have been the exact same had he gone and inspected it himself. It could have been way worse, on the advice of the mechanics he could have gone to fly the thing home and wound up with a smoking hole somewhere. I suspect the situation is even worse for an experimental than a spam can, at least with the latter there's regulatory guidance.

All in all, I think it's actually OK. @traumamed is just out some money. I think about taking off in a new type in which the OP may not have experience, now taking off in a new type with some wicked build flaws, it sounds really dangerous. @traumamed can always make more money. We can't make a new @traumamed. Aviation is really unforgiving of mistakes. Better all this happened on the ground.
 
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