Advice: 170 hours, 4 years, 2 practical test failures=frustrated

RoadRunner

RoadRunner

Filing Flight Plan
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Roadrunner
I suspect my situation might be extreme but not completely unheard of. I'm in my late fifties, work in financial services, with plenty of time in the back of business jets and millions of miles in commercial aviation travel. I've always wanted to fly but early on, the economics didn't square with starting a family, then a business, a later, the time commitments of being a senior businessman precluded the commitment required.
So finally in 2013 with the kids out of the house, and some business stability, I figured I'd just start taking lessons whenever possible, first in a 172, then in a DA40. It was a battle carving out time, but over the next four years I managed to accumulate, as of last week, 174 hours, with >45 hours solo. I've had five separate sign-offs for my checkride, three cancelled, once for business reasons, once for weather, once for equipment. The two tests I did take were failures; the first last summer when I unwisely tried to take it at an unfamiliar airport during an incredibly stressful span of time (immediately prior to both moving, and changing jobs) where the DPE basically said take me back after I fumbled my lost procedure. The second was last week which I took in a DA20. (the DA40 was down for service for 3 weeks and counting with no end in sight)
I aced the oral portion, messed up the practical pretty severely, and don't fault the DPE's decision in the least.

I could point to multiple reasons for this second failure, but rather than sound like I'm making excuses, would like to pose the the community the question: what would you do in my situation to wrap this up? Money is not a constraint, but time sure is. The flight school community is populated by some really great, committed, hard working people who love flying, but peel back the incentives and the reality is: what school operators want most is selling flight hours to help amortize their equipment fixed costs, and what CFIs want most is to build hours on someone else's dime so they can get a job with an airline. (which describes my last three)
Realistically, there just isn't anyone in the system who really wants to take ownership of the outcome for me.

I've seen American Flyers and a few other groups who offer 'finishing' programs that sound a lot like what I might need, so maybe I should bite the bullet, take a week off and camp at some stable-wx zipcode and practice maneuvers 5 hours a day? Another alternative might be to shop around for a 'private' CFI as their sole student with the single goal of getting me through my test. If such a thing exists?
Anyhow, I'm pretty frustrated, really want to pass this test, and curious to hear what others think...
 
IMO you need to stabilize this stuff.

Go find a good school and just go through the motions with the same place with a open mind.
 
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Being a pilot is a very personal avocation. YOU have to take ownership of the outcome.

If you cannot find time to concentrate and develop proficiency to pass the test, how do you expect to maintain proficiency once you have the sole responsibility in the cockpit?

You need to figure out a way to set aside all the other distractions at least long enough for a concentrated effort to achieve proficiency. Do it on one type of plane, in one place.
 
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How do you “fumble a lost procedure” so bad the examiner won’t continue? There must be some fundamental deficiency that would have made going further pointless. And he should have made that clear to you. Or did you decide to go back because you weren’t going to pass?
 
Please list your top 5 weak areas. Be honest. Be critical. Help the CFI's here (not me) know where you are really stuck.
 
You should be able to identify what problems in the practical kept you from passing. I would also suggest you practice the maneuver that you had trouble with, and try again as soon as possible. If you did not complete a procedure to standard, ask the DPE if you can CONTINUE the exam and pass as many maneuvers as possible. That way you only need to concentrate on those you did not complete successfully.

In terms of the CFI and accountability for outcome (and time)... I agree with the others that YOU need to take responsibility for the outcome. You need to take the time off as necessary to ensure you can keep up with the training, and perform the maneuvers within allowable parameters. Staying ahead of an aircaft means that you have to plan and think through what is occurring in the aircraft while it’s in flight. This translates well into pursuing your PPL as you’re in command of the training schedule and practice time, and you need to stay ahead of losing any skills you’ve developed through long lapses of time in the air.

My personal recommendation is that you sit down with your current CFI and plan out a course of action for the next 2 weeks to practice the maneuvers in the PTS, and plan to take time off from work as necessary to make this happen.
 
I would agree with @James331 you need to stabilize the situation. Personally I would find a single CFI to work with till you finish. I would try to find a consistent plane or at least a consistent model just to eliminate the variable although honestly I think this is an excuse. If you can find a place that will finish you up that has a good relationship with the examiner that might get you done but sounds like there are some fundamental issues that need to be addressed.
 
Answers to what’s ailing you without being there are impossible. A good instructor will be able to shake out any bad habits you’ve built and fix those pretty rapidly with a consistent flying schedule.

But. Here’s something you can think about and chew on.

You said you’re a business executive. If you had hired yourself to be your personal pilot and offered to pay for all of your training, how would you rate your performance in accomplishing the task? Would you have already had a serious talk with yourself about this?

Now let’s say there’s political reasons you can’t fire this pilot. What coaching or resources would you find to assure they completed the task?

I see hint words in your post that you’re leaning away from, instead of into, taking charge. Both out of and in the airplane. YOU are responsible for the outcome of the flight. This is training to be Pilot In Command. Not Pilot Distracted by Work.

This doesn’t end at the checkride. It begins in earnest. You’re 100% responsible for currency, proficiency, and the safety of yourself and passengers.

You don’t get to “flub” your lost procedures when you’re really lost. Or your engine out procedures. Or any of it. You also don’t get to say, “I was too busy at work to stay proficient, so we are going to die today. We’ll try again next week when the schedule is better.”

Make sense? Hire yourself. Evaluate yourself. And set goals that are no more flexible than your work schedule is. They’re going to clash. Get used to it.

You shouldn’t schedule checkrides when stressed any more than you should take passengers aloft when stressed. Become the PIC in this process.

Do what you would do to a failing employee or business unit. Put it on a hard goal and time and money budget and make it focus or get fired/downsized. Demand it perform to better than minimum standards. Get other things out of their way.

See where I’m going here?

I think that you have the ability to kick your own butt. Just apply the same focus you apply at work. This is serious business. Treat it as such. Your passenger’s lives depend upon your decision making skills.

The Private checkride is the minimum standard. Not the level you should be shooting for. You should be expecting better. You’re going to put your family on board with this “employee”.

Make sense?

Pep talk over. Make a decision. :)
 
Assuming you pass the checkride, does your free time allow you to stay proficient to fly as PIC? I have my doubts.
 
before my official checkride i had a different instructor, someone with whom i had minimal time, run me through a very aggressive oral and practice checkride. he worked me to death. when he "passed" me i knew i was ready. if you haven't done that you might consider giving that a try before your next checkride. don't give up.
 
JCranford said:
Assuming you pass the checkride, does your free time allow you to stay proficient to fly as PIC? I have my doubts.
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170 hours in four years is probably workable — I was thinking about that too. I’ve seen people who demanded high standards of themselves hold a good level of proficiency at that number of hours per year and even less, depending on the equipment flown, but they had to keep on themselves.

So I phrased it the way I did. Set goals higher than minimum proficiency standards. Fly that airplane like it’s your job to fly like a pro, and you’ll be okay at 50 hours a year.

Fly it like the ACS standards are the best you’ll ever do, and let things break into your currency and proficiency personal plan, and it’ll get ugly when the first big time gap comes along. And you’ll need a tough but fair CFI to beat better standards back into you. It’s all about building habits that you refuse to break.

The overly simplistic example is altitude holding. If you’re shooting for +-100 you’ll get +-100. Shoot for +-50 at all times. Then tighten it up more. Shoot for +-20. Whenever you think you’ve met an FAA standard, set a tighter one. If you can make the altimeter needle not move at all, you’ll laugh when someone says hold altitude within +-100.

That sort of thing. Focus and fly harder.

I’ve met a lot of older pilots who don’t get the flight time they always want to get in a year. But when they get into the airplane their plan is well planned, their cockpit is well organized, their weather is limited to something reasonable against a “look back” of their recent flying, and they stay up on everything. Their radio calls are crisp and intentional, their flying is solid, and they don’t mess around.

They KNOW they’d be more polished with 100 more hours aloft this year, so they push themselves to do each flight as well as they possibly can. PIC. The airplane never goes anywhere their brain didn’t already go.
 
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Without knowing anything more than what is written here, I suspect your lack of time available to devote to training is hindering you. Another possibility is that even when you are available there are distractions keeping you from focusing on the task of earning your certificate.

If you just took a checkride and didn't pass, go sit down with your instructor and review the things that you were found unsatisfactory on as well as the stuff you hadn't covered on the checkride yet. You're almost done so just do what it takes to finish.

Maintaining proficiency after the checkride is another story altogether. Do you have time to continue to fly so you can make sure your skills don't atrophy?
 
Am curious how much time in the DA20 you had before your checkride attempt? Switching planes at the last minute is a bad idea.

On another note, your view of your flight school and instructor's motivations seems overly cynical. If true you wouldn't have 45 hours of solo time and five checkride endorsements.
 
RoadRunner said:
I've seen American Flyers and a few other groups who offer 'finishing' programs that sound a lot like what I might need, so maybe I should bite the bullet, take a week off and camp at some stable-wx zipcode and practice maneuvers 5 hours a day? Another alternative might be to shop around for a 'private' CFI as their sole student with the single goal of getting me through my test. If such a thing exists?
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By the way... tactical not strategic comments now...

Yes. Either of these could work. And do exist. I suggest the latter. You want someone who does accelerated training and finish ups who holds you to high standards from the first day you hit the cockpit. You’ll feel beat up. You’ll get over it and rise to the occasion.

This is what I meant by a hard goal. Like... ten solid days available to finish and a place and instructor that specializes in that.

Most accelerated courses will have STRICT methodology and procedure. You’ll get told ONCE nicely what to fix. You’ll get scolded the second time you screw it up. And you’ll get barked at loudly the third such that you won’t forget it. They know they may also be breaking bad habits learned from previous experience so they don’t mess around much in being nice about it, because number three of anything means they’re breaking a bad habit.

And that takes a little shock and awe to break it in a short timeframe.

Now you know, so it won’t be a surprise. If you’re serious, it’ll feel tight anyway. You’ll know they’re not messing around and want you to succeed.
 
I suspect that 170 hours in 4 years makes it so that the density of instruction is too low, so it's endless re-learning. The OP must ramp it up. For comparison, I passed at 72 hours after 8 months. So, I was making 108 h/y rate versus 42 h/y for OP. And my rate was barely enough.

As far as staying proficient at 42 h/y -- the glossy magaznes are full of articles about it. Basically, yes -- you can, but typically you must do nothing but patterns. It's really no fun at all.

Maybe OP needs to buy a plane, and study and pass in his own plane. At least then he's not tugged around by equipment and scheduling issues.
 
Since you’ve been signed off multiple times to take the check ride, I’m thinking this is more about overcoming a psychological hurdle than a lack of knowledge and skills.

A finishing program, whether a dedicated program or something homegrown with your local CFI, could well be the ticket to get past your hurdle. The key is to take the time off, and focus exclusively on flying— no work, no family, get a hotel room if you need to.
 
I'm confused as to why you can't continue with the last DPE and only redo the practical portions that you busted. At least the oral portion would be a given. You don't say how far you got into the practical. My DPE discussed with me before the flight portion whether I would prefer to continue or stop in case of a bust and I told him I would prefer to continue. He also said I could retake the ride for free with him within some time frame.
 
exncsurfer said:
I'm confused as to why you can't continue with the last DPE and only redo the practical portions that you busted. At least the oral portion would be a given. You don't say how far you got into the practical. My DPE discussed with me before the flight portion whether I would prefer to continue or stop in case of a bust and I told him I would prefer to continue. He also said I could retake the ride for free with him within some time frame.
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:yeahthat: I don't understand this either. At least you've been exposed to this DPE, should hopefully calm you down some.
 
exncsurfer said:
I'm confused as to why you can't continue with the last DPE and only redo the practical portions that you busted.
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I wondered that also but he has some words in there that hinted that he moved. Maybe just a logistics thing.
 
Maybe the DPE is scared to fly with him a second time. :)
 
denverpilot said:
I wondered that also but he has some words in there that hinted that he moved. Maybe just a logistics thing.
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I interpreted that as he moved after the first try, not the last one.

Sounds like he just made his last attempt on a checkride last week. I think he really just needs to go back to his CFI, work on the unsatisfactory stuff and finish the checkride up. He'd be wasting money and time to do it any other way at this point.
 
mondtster said:
I interpreted that as he moved after the first try, not the last one.

Sounds like he just made his last attempt on a checkride last week. I think he really just needs to go back to his CFI, work on the unsatisfactory stuff and finish the checkride up. He'd be wasting money and time to do it any other way at this point.
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Yup. He needs to take charge of the whole thing.
 
....and a angle of attach indicator :)
 
I'm beginning to think this was a drive-by posting. 1 post and out?
 
I think we're all just speculating until @RoadRunner comes back and answers some questions. A lot of people take more than the average 60-70hrs, myself included. So it would be awesome for him to be able to finish. At some point you just want to be done!

Edit: I was thinking the same thing @exncsurfer - you beat me to it.
 
If money is not an issue:
Buy a full FAA approved simulator for home -> $10k (and fly all the time)
Hire aids for everything around the house and use all that time to fly/train (assuming staff of 3 full time)-> $15k per month
Hire a full time CFI (on salary) to fly whenever you got time
Buy yourself 2 airplanes to prevent anything being down
Buy yourself one airport to get familiar with

That all should help
 
Thanks everyone for all the reactions and opinions. I've been on web forums since before Mosaic debuted and you're all especially generous offering authentic reactions to a first time pseudonymous poster. (you can see by my join date however that i'm a longtime lurker; I signed up after my third lesson) And that's a lot of responses.
A couple of reactions to replies, and some more thoughts:
  • I agree with the sentiment that I, and only I, am ultimately responsible for a) passing the test; b) achieving/maintaining proficiency thereafter. I have a plan for the latter that involves buying a Cirrus for business travel, and hiring a safety pilot/CFI.
  • I failed my check ride last Thursday, and was pretty depressed about it. I probably shouldn't have posted, but my frustration levels had really peaked. I was signed off for this ride Feb 2, but was delayed by departure of CFI #4 to the airlines, 3-4 weeks later, departure of CFI #5 to the airlines, then the DA40 went down for a long repair ('should be about 1 week,' for 4 weeks). CFI #6 like every instructor previously, wants at least 4-5 hours of flight time to sign off for IACRAA. The DA20 took 5-6 hours to acquaint with Avionics, power settings, etc. All orientation time I should've been spent drilling fundamentals. During this time, my medical expired, along with my pre-April '16 student pilot certificate. 2 AMEs cancelled appointments, and in the scramble to book a third, missed a few flying days in countdown to test.
  • I should've DQ'd myself from taking the test, but I was worried about the abrasion on the DPE, who I'd scheduled then cancelled 4-5 times over the prior 2 months.
  • So to summarize: I have no CFI right now, the school will assign a new one, and I'll hit a reset with a brand new person. Again. My written expires the end of this month, so first hurdle will be to retake that. April is jammed with business travel that i pushed out of the late Jan/Feb calendar to clear it for test prep and flying. (I've done 27 hours in 2018, which is a 100hr/yr. pace) I have 60 days to retake test with current DPE. I'd love to de-risk the outcome of that as much as possible, but if I can't make the deadline, need an ironclad Plan B.
 
That’s a lot more info that we originally had.

Sorry to hear about all of that. It sounds like part of your resource planning, being that you’re acting as your own “executive” looking at your performance so far, would be to ask around for an old CFI who isn’t leaving for an airline and commit to them as they’ll commit to you, to hammer this thing out.

Here’s an honest assessment from a newbie CFI who has no plans to go anywhere to fly commercially and wants to teach...

I’d be at the airport every day and doing this for a living if it paid well enough.

Keep that in mind if you find that old CFI and he says he charges a bit more than the time builders. He’s too old to go play airline or retired from one and loves teaching.

Now I’m certainly not doing that yet, I’m at that awkward stage where numbers wise, I need to keep my day job and kill myself for a while with some students in my “free” time to even have an experience base to work from.

So far, all my study of this biz is that even a motivated and diligent student with money to spend will STILL choose the cheapest route over the expensive customized accelerated school with full time instructors who do nothing but that and know their stuff cold.

Because... this stuff is expensive. Even for someone who can afford to do that.

The industry and the regs create a Catch-22. But I’ll tell you flatly that if you hire another young instructor with shiny jet syndrome in his or her eyes they’re going to jump the moment their logbook says they have the hours to jump. The industry is in a feeding frenzy of hiring right now.

Finding someone who wants to stay at the low pay of instructing and teach, is going to be a significant challenge right now. You can mitigate it by flying more and getting done faster, or finding the old guy who’s not going anywhere.

And frankly they’re all busy too. The shiny jet syndrome crowd has them fully booked everywhere right now. It isn’t the 90s where instructors sat at the airport just hoping someone would come in wanting to learn to fly. I don’t know of any instructors who are having any trouble picking up new students right now.

Elbow your way in there and grab one and get it done quickly before they bail.
 
I'm still curious what you did that was so bad as to stop the entire practical immediately.
 
You are too worried about crap that doesn't matter and not worried enough about crap that does matter. Worried about being "abrasive" to the DPE???? Who cares? The DPE certainly doesn't. You've talked about work ten times, if you are too busy, then you can't fly, BUT, you obviously can fly and have, even with your busy work schedule, so that sounds like you are making excuses to cover for other deficiencies either real or imagined. You have to make up your mind if you want to fly and flying needs 100 percent of your attention while you are training for it, pre flight planning and actual flying, you can't worry about other stuff. (That means WHILE you have time to train, not that you have to give up everything else to train.) And worrying is an issue, I tell my kids, if you are worrying about something it's because you haven't done as much as could do so go and do the work then the worry will go away. All you should have when you fly is maybe a little nervousness, if you are worried then you are not prepared.

My advice is to get back in the trainer with a CFI, spend the 5 or 6 hours or maybe more to get the sign off you need. Schedule another check ride. Make the time for the CFI and take an hour a day every day to study, review everything, you'll pass with flying colors. As far as the 60 days to retake, don't let that go in unprepared again, if you need to start from square 1 because you exceeded 60 days, then so be it.

If you schedule the check ride and find yourself legitimately worrying about something that might cause you to flunk, call the DPE, tell him you need a little more time to work on something and reschedule. If anything that shows the DPE you are capable of good ADM. Then get back with your CFI and work it out.

Once again, nervousness before a check ride, normal. Worrying because you are not ready, that's a no go and stop worrying about what the DPE thinks other than what he will think about your great performance.

Good luck, if you make up your mind you'll be fine.
 
RoadRunner said:
Thanks everyone for all the reactions and opinions. I've been on web forums since before Mosaic debuted and you're all especially generous offering authentic reactions to a first time pseudonymous poster. (you can see by my join date however that i'm a longtime lurker; I signed up after my third lesson) And that's a lot of responses.
A couple of reactions to replies, and some more thoughts:
  • I agree with the sentiment that I, and only I, am ultimately responsible for a) passing the test; b) achieving/maintaining proficiency thereafter. I have a plan for the latter that involves buying a Cirrus for business travel, and hiring a safety pilot/CFI.
  • I failed my check ride last Thursday, and was pretty depressed about it. I probably shouldn't have posted, but my frustration levels had really peaked. I was signed off for this ride Feb 2, but was delayed by departure of CFI #4 to the airlines, 3-4 weeks later, departure of CFI #5 to the airlines, then the DA40 went down for a long repair ('should be about 1 week,' for 4 weeks). CFI #6 like every instructor previously, wants at least 4-5 hours of flight time to sign off for IACRAA. The DA20 took 5-6 hours to acquaint with Avionics, power settings, etc. All orientation time I should've been spent drilling fundamentals. During this time, my medical expired, along with my pre-April '16 student pilot certificate. 2 AMEs cancelled appointments, and in the scramble to book a third, missed a few flying days in countdown to test.
  • I should've DQ'd myself from taking the test, but I was worried about the abrasion on the DPE, who I'd scheduled then cancelled 4-5 times over the prior 2 months.
  • So to summarize: I have no CFI right now, the school will assign a new one, and I'll hit a reset with a brand new person. Again. My written expires the end of this month, so first hurdle will be to retake that. April is jammed with business travel that i pushed out of the late Jan/Feb calendar to clear it for test prep and flying. (I've done 27 hours in 2018, which is a 100hr/yr. pace) I have 60 days to retake test with current DPE. I'd love to de-risk the outcome of that as much as possible, but if I can't make the deadline, need an ironclad Plan B.
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When I see words like "School...assign...new CFI...reset button..." I start to see the problem. You've put yourself in the hands of the school and are, probably somewhat subconsciously, just waiting for them to tell you what to do; you're just along for the ride. F*** that. It's time for YOU to take charge. You're the customer, you're the one spending the money and carving out the time for this. You need to PICK a CFI that will work for you. If that means moving to a different "school" so be it. In your first post you identified part of the issue: at the school you're at, you're seemingly nothing but a cog in the wheel for the school and the revolving door CFIs. I know it's difficult, mentally, to cut ties this late in the game, but it's probably in your best long-term interest.

My advice, having seen folks struggle through these situations in the past: start asking around (here, other folks at the airport, local pilot Facebook groups, etc.) and find an independent CFI that you can work with, one that isn't focused on going to the airlines or churning hours. You need a CFI that's been around awhile, that does this because they want to not because they have to, and that has adequate time to dedicate to you and your progression. Most of the guys/gals that fit that bill will NOT be the type to hold your hand and tell you it's all going to be OK; they're going to be hard on you, hold you to a high standard, and won't sugar-coat things. But you don't want a friend, you want someone who is going to make you a good, licensed pilot. You don't need CFIs and school managers who appear to care more about keeping you "happy" and coming back with your $$, rather than getting you finished.

If money really isn't a major issue, seriously consider just buying a 152/172 (or even a Diamond if you play in that income strata) to get through the rest of your training and the first part of your PPL "career." Not only does that solve the school scheduling/maintenance issues, but it gives you a good way to build some hours before moving into a Cirrus.
 
Salty said:
I'm still curious what you did that was so bad as to stop the entire practical immediately.
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It's a story that is tangental to the core issue regarding the system, which DenverPilot summarizes above. And I also believe the past is the past, I hope I've learned from it, but don't want to dwell on it or lay blame. I just want to land on the most effective go-forward strategy.

<<edit>> Ok. I just typed it up, proof read, then realized there is just no benefit to detailing full story which involves some carelessness by flight school/CFI and a DPE undergoing review by the local FSDO. Suffice to say that the DPE wanted me and my flight school out of his life ASAP. I took off at an unfamiliar towered airport after long ground delays, headed for a XC in geography I'd never seen. His first directive was lost procedure and diversion. I blew it completely (wrong time/distance and course), and after 5 min or so he said, 'there's nowhere to go from here, just take me back.' I didn't know it was an option to continue the test even after knowing I'd failed, so just complied.
 
RoadRunner said:
It's a story that is tangental to the core issue regarding the system, which DenverPilot summarizes above. And I also believe the past is the past, I hope I've learned from it, but don't want to dwell on it or lay blame. I just want to land on the most effective go-forward strategy.

<<edit>> Ok. I just typed it up, proof read, then realized there is just no benefit to detailing full story which involves some carelessness by flight school/CFI and a DPE undergoing review by the local FSDO. Suffice to say that the DPE wanted me and my flight school out of his life ASAP. I took off at an unfamiliar towered airport after long ground delays, headed for a XC in geography I'd never seen. His first directive was lost procedure and diversion. I blew it completely (wrong time/distance and course), and after 5 min or so he said, 'there's nowhere to go from here, just take me back.' I didn't know it was an option to continue the test even after knowing I'd failed, so just complied.
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If he told you it was done you were done. I don't want to harp on you, but it's your test, you need to own it, you got lost and couldn't recover, you need to work on that. If the school is screwing up, call them out on it. It sounds like the school has some issues, sometimes it's better to pay more or drive a little further, saves money in the end.
 
Thanks for ongoing comments. I know from the rest of life that nervousness is inversely correlated to preparation. That's really at the core of my question: how best to prepare because what I've done so far isn't cutting it.
I have begun searching for a private CFI. Are there directories I should look at? Google returns one at Gleim, but the entries are timestamped 2003.
 
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