ADSB question / collisions

Ben2k9

Ben2k9

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Ben2k9
1. If everybody had ADSB, wouldn’t ALL traffic show up on everyone else’s nav/com? Wouldn’t collisions become more of a thing of the past?

2. If #1 is correct, why the resistance to getting ASDB installed among some pilots? Simply a cost thing?

I’m new to all this, but seems like a safety no-brainer. Can’t imagine flying now without ADSB traffic and weather in.
 
1. ADSB is not required in all airspace around the country.
2. I will never install ADSB in my Champ.
 
some people still think NORDO is acceptable. I hear what you're saying, but as smarter and safer as it would be, not everyone is onboard and I understand their objections. but yeah, it would be nice if we at least had a blip per plane. the tracking, not so much.
 
There is still a lag in the information being captured, computed, sent to the ground towers, transmitted to the properly equipped aircraft, and displayed on screen (MFD or Tablet).

The Mark 1 eyeball still rules the day.
 
Ben2k9 said:
1. If everybody had ADSB, wouldn’t ALL traffic show up on everyone else’s nav/com? Wouldn’t collisions become more of a thing of the past?

2. If #1 is correct, why the resistance to getting ASDB installed among some pilots? Simply a cost thing?

I’m new to all this, but seems like a safety no-brainer. Can’t imagine flying now without ADSB traffic and weather in.
Click to expand...

You need ADS-B In to see other traffic, and ADS-B In is much more expensive than out.

It's not foolproof, but it is pretty good. There are circumstances where the ADS-B tower won't send or receive information very well, so an aircraft may drop off the screen for a moment.
 
Ben2k9 said:
why the resistance to getting ASDB installed among some pilots?
Click to expand...
Frequently the cost of the devices, plus the speed at which the tech is developing and becoming available. What you purchase during 2019 might be made obsolete with a less expensive product two to three years later.
 
Ben2k9 said:
1. If everybody had ADSB, wouldn’t ALL traffic show up on everyone else’s nav/com? Wouldn’t collisions become more of a thing of the past?

2. If #1 is correct, why the resistance to getting ASDB installed among some pilots? Simply a cost thing?

I’m new to all this, but seems like a safety no-brainer. Can’t imagine flying now without ADSB traffic and weather in.
Click to expand...

It helps, but...

It’s not the panacea you think. Collisions are most likely in the pattern and pilots need to be looking outside then, not at a screen. While in the pattern, I am using the radio and looking around to monitor traffic, not looking at the iPad on my knee. ADSB isn’t much help at that point.
 
I really like ADSB but I have 3 issues to installing it.

1. it costs more than 10% the value of my aircraft.
2. I don't have space in the panel or else where in the aircraft for it.
3. Biggest issue I don't have enough electrical power to run it for a typical 5 hour flight.

These are not totally unresolveable issues, but about 95% of the ADS-B products available simply won't work in my aircraft for one or more of the above reasons.
Most Transponders use more electrical power than everything else in my aircraft combined (Radio, Computer, instruments)

Brian
 
Eric Gleason said:
You need ADS-B In to see other traffic, and ADS-B In is much more expensive than out.

It's not foolproof, but it is pretty good. There are circumstances where the ADS-B tower won't send or receive information very well, so an aircraft may drop off the screen for a moment.
Click to expand...

I thought there were some pretty cheap ADSB-in products...
 
Eric Gleason said:
You need ADS-B In to see other traffic, and ADS-B In is much more expensive than out.

It's not foolproof, but it is pretty good. There are circumstances where the ADS-B tower won't send or receive information very well, so an aircraft may drop off the screen for a moment.
Click to expand...


That’s backward.. It’s ADSB out that’s expensive.
 
Eric Gleason said:
You need ADS-B In to see other traffic, and ADS-B In is much more expensive than out.

It's not foolproof, but it is pretty good. There are circumstances where the ADS-B tower won't send or receive information very well, so an aircraft may drop off the screen for a moment.
Click to expand...

I think you misspoke a bit. You need ADSB-In to see the broadcasted traffic info(it's cheap, ex Stratus). But you need ADSB-Out permanently installed system($$$$) to reliably trigger that broadcast and give your own position/info.
 
brcase said:
I really like ADSB but I have 3 issues to installing it.

1. it costs more than 10% the value of my aircraft.
2. I don't have space in the panel or else where in the aircraft for it.
3. Biggest issue I don't have enough electrical power to run it for a typical 5 hour flight.

These are not totally unresolveable issues, but about 95% of the ADS-B products available simply won't work in my aircraft for one or more of the above reasons.
Most Transponders use more electrical power than everything else in my aircraft combined (Radio, Computer, instruments)

Brian
Click to expand...


Stratux receiver suction-cupped to the window, iPad mini on your knee, spare battery pack. ADSB in for less than $500. No aircraft mod.

That’s what I do in the rentals I fly.
 
Plus the uAvionix sky beacon is now a cheap option for ADSB out. Cost should no longer be a MAJOR factor
 
Ben2k9 said:
1. If everybody had ADSB, wouldn’t ALL traffic show up on everyone else’s nav/com? Wouldn’t collisions become more of a thing of the past?

2. If #1 is correct, why the resistance to getting ASDB installed among some pilots? Simply a cost thing?

I’m new to all this, but seems like a safety no-brainer. Can’t imagine flying now without ADSB traffic and weather in.
Click to expand...


Are you also new to computers and government?

Yes you’d still have midair’s, which in themselves are super rare.
 
Ben2k9 said:
Plus the uAvionix sky beacon is now a cheap option for ADSB out. Cost should no longer be a MAJOR factor
Click to expand...

Assuming you already have a transponder!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
AggieMike88 said:
There is still a lag in the information being captured, computed, sent to the ground towers, transmitted to the properly equipped aircraft, and displayed on screen (MFD or Tablet).

The Mark 1 eyeball still rules the day.
Click to expand...

This is definitely true. I was watching a guy both by eyeball and in The Matrix the other day, he was maybe 2 miles away, 1000' lower, and offset to the side, going the same direction as me. I watched him start a 180º turn, but the blip in The Matrix kept going straight for a good 10-15 seconds before it started the turn. By that point he had turned at least 90°.
 
Half Fast said:
Stratux receiver suction-cupped to the window, iPad mini on your knee, spare battery pack. ADSB in for less than $500. No aircraft mod.

That’s what I do in the rentals I fly.
Click to expand...

I should have been clear I was talking about ADS-B out. I actually have a PCAS, ADS-B 1090ES device called FLARM. It is low power, provides a GPS source, collision avoidance with other Flarm equiped aircraft (mostly sailplanes), 1090ES ADS-B, and Mode-C transponders (PCAS), it also has flight logging capability and can link to my Tablet.

Brian
 
Ben2k9 said:
1. If everybody had ADSB, wouldn’t ALL traffic show up on everyone else’s nav/com? Wouldn’t collisions become more of a thing of the past?

2. If #1 is correct, why the resistance to getting ASDB installed among some pilots? Simply a cost thing?

I’m new to all this, but seems like a safety no-brainer. Can’t imagine flying now without ADSB traffic and weather in.
Click to expand...


At this point in time, even with the latest band-aids, the system doesn't work reliably as designed or promoted. Mandate or not, why waste your hard earned bucks on equipment that's either going to need upgrades later, or be sent to the scrap heap. Weather data delays are well known, but if you're trusting your life to the aircraft position data displayed on your screen, stop it, quite often aircraft position data is delayed and flawed.
 
We have the Lynx ADSB system that will transmit traffic to your ipad and foreflight via bluetooth.

I think its great, but you still have to look out the window. Easy to fixate on the ipad.
 
When there's 15 planes converging on Ripon, I'm looking outside all the time and carefully holding my 1800' altitude. My ADS-B screen will be a sea of red arrows, and I can't afford to look down at the panel. Now, 30 miles outside of Ripon, that's a different story but even then, it's 90 percent looking outside for actual airplanes.
 
I think ADSB traffic is great, and I don't even have ADSB out yet. There are enough planes that have it in my area that I am seldom not getting either direct position reports from participating aircraft or picking up the traffic broadcast for someone else. I will definitely have to install the out equipment before 2020, and am looking forward to having it. Once most people have "out", you won't have to worry much about delays in the system, because the reports will be direct plane to plane. I am not saying you don't have to still look outside, but a quick glance down at the traffic page will help your situational awareness immensely. And yes, it has helped me in the pattern as well!
 
You're only slightly more likely to be killed in a mid-air than to be eaten by a Bandersnatch. We, GA, just don't hit each other very often - and almost never in cruise. . .

It's not really for collision avoidance, and if you share airspace with me, please look out the effing window?

Seriously, it's of limited value to GA - not worthless, by any means, just not worth the cost, either to us, or the FAA budget, when considering GA.
 
Art Rose said:
At this point in time, even with the latest band-aids, the system doesn't work reliably as designed or promoted. Mandate or not, why waste your hard earned bucks on equipment that's either going to need upgrades later, or be sent to the scrap heap.
Click to expand...

Why? Well, a couple of reasons (for me -- YMMV). One, more information is always better than less, even if it's a far cry from perfect. Just recognize its shortcomings and don't trust it more than it warrants; it's still better than not having it.

And two, well, I'm based at a class C airport, so that's pretty much that in a year and change. :)
 
Information, maybe; it still takes cycles and resources to appreciate, using time maybe better spent on higher value analysis. And if it's just data, heck, bad data is worse than no data. . .
 
Bad data is worse than no data if you don't know it's bad or don't know how it's bad. If you know these things and are able to adjust then not so much. As with most things, there's a little more complexity going on.
 
Last Friday cruising home at 7500 feet i get an alert that an aircraft is converging on my six. i check his airspeed on the adsb and he is doing twice my airspeed. Altitude difference is showing 50 feet - then 0 feet difference.

At 1.5 miles he is still on the same course so i immediately roll into a turn. At the 90 degree point in the turn a large twin passes thru the airspace i just vacated.

Twice in the past two months the adsb has helped me avoid wake turbulence from military transports out of Travis AFB.

ADSB may be of more benefit to those flying in areas of high traffic BUT if you think your eyes are enough to keep you out of danger you are seriously mistaken. ADSB is a huge step up in aviation safety and it amazes me that some pilots still minimize its contribution.
 
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I just got my arrow back from the avionics shop. I installed the GTX345, so I am 2020 compliant. It puts traffic and weather on my ipad and gtn, so thats pretty nifty. My only issue with the whole adsb thing is making the information public so anyone can track anyone. If I cant track up look up license plates on cars (I really dont want to, just sayin) why can you track every airplane?
 
Ben2k9 said:
1. If everybody had ADSB, wouldn’t ALL traffic show up on everyone else’s nav/com? Wouldn’t collisions become more of a thing of the past?

2. If #1 is correct, why the resistance to getting ASDB installed among some pilots? Simply a cost thing?

I’m new to all this, but seems like a safety no-brainer. Can’t imagine flying now without ADSB traffic and weather in.
Click to expand...

Not everyone needs ADS-B for them to appear on your ADS-B solution. TIS-B traffic (transponder) will appear as long as you have ADS-B out installed and you're within range of a tower. But as @eman said above, some people still fly NORDO and think that's ideal flying. (grrr)
 
To make ADS-B safe you need someone in your plane to watch the screen while you're flying the plane. Head down pilots scare me.
 
Croomrider said:
I think ADSB traffic is great, and I don't even have ADSB out yet. There are enough planes that have it in my area that I am seldom not getting either direct position reports from participating aircraft or picking up the traffic broadcast for someone else. I will definitely have to install the out equipment before 2020, and am looking forward to having it. Once most people have "out", you won't have to worry much about delays in the system, because the reports will be direct plane to plane. I am not saying you don't have to still look outside, but a quick glance down at the traffic page will help your situational awareness immensely. And yes, it has helped me in the pattern as well!
Click to expand...


One of the hurdles they've been trying to resolve is the systems ability to handle large volumes of data. I understand a recent system test in the Chicago area failed. If it's failing already, what are we to expect when everybody is contributing data, especially in congested areas? Nope, not buying into this government engineering fiasco until forced.
 
cgrab said:
To make ADS-B safe you need someone in your plane to watch the screen while you're flying the plane. Head down pilots scare me.
Click to expand...

The system gives visual and audible alerts. Takes no more time than your typical instrument scan. I guess if you have no instruments, or never look at them, it might take an extra second or two, assuming audible alerts are disabled.
 
Half Fast said:
That’s backward.. It’s ADSB out that’s expensive.
Click to expand...

We're taking about ADS-B compliance for safety. Out is the minimum equipment level to meet the regs, and Out does not receive other aircraft positions, it just sends yours.

Sure, there are cheap portable In solutions, but that doesn't help in this context.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Eric Gleason said:
We're taking about ADS-B compliance for safety. Out is the minimum equipment level to meet the regs, and Out does not receive other aircraft positions, it just sends yours.

Sure, there are cheap portable In solutions, but that doesn't help in this context.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


No, if you'll refer back to the very first post, we're talking about displaying weather and traffic. That's a function of ADSB-IN. Agreed that OUT is what's needed to satisfy the upcoming reg, but OUT alone does not put anything on your display.
 
Ben2k9 said:
1. If everybody had ADSB, wouldn’t ALL traffic show up on everyone else’s nav/com? Wouldn’t collisions become more of a thing of the past?
Click to expand...

We still have collisions in class C or D airspace where 3 people should be looking at what's going on (2 pilots and a controller). As long as "maintain visual separation" is a thing, there will be midairs. Even if we put everyone on IFR and made the entire NAS class B, there would still be midairs due to controller and pilot mistakes and equipment failures.

Have there been any midairs in Class B after the mandate of Mode C and TCAS with a TCAS equipped aircraft? I didn't see any. Seems like GA mixing it up with airliners has largely been eliminated.

Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Flight_182, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-air_collision
 
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