ADSB out creating more risk until 2020

[jtheune]

The quotes I've been getting are $3-4K difference between the Out and the Out/In. Overall, that's almost 30% of the value of the airplane. It's a financial decision. Is it really worth 30% of the airplane value to fully equip ADSB or just $5-6K for the Out when the $150 stratux provides the In option?

I did not say you had to /should get in in the panel, just have it. A tablet and strutux is 300 or 400 hundred total cost and if your going to spend 3-4k on out why not get the benifit of in?

 

[Brad Z]

The premise that 1) he wasn't looking because he didn't change course, and 2) he wasn't looking because he has ADS-B is flawed, in my opinion. If anything ADS-B traffic (I also have TIS as well) shows me how much traffic I never see. I'd argue folks are more likely to be looking outside if they get an alert; it's still possible to just not see the other aircraft. And yes, he might have had -out but not -in at the time.

Either way, both pilots should be looking, doubling the odds of spotting each other.

 

[kyleb]

And your protest that the interior needs to come out to put the GPS antenna on the roof... why? Put it on the tail.

Seems like the belly is the ideal place since the ground stations are all...on the ground, and half of the traffic will be below you too.

 

[coloradobluesky]

The GPS satellites orbit the earth. The GPS WAAS antenna picks up its signal from the GPS satellites so it is mounted on top of the airplane. The ADSB transponder antenna is mounted on the bottom of the airplane.

 

[Salty]

I can't trace the path you followed to your conclusion.

At the base level there are two airplanes with the requirement to see and avoid each other. Has been before, still is, always shall be.

You saw a target with your ADS-B "In" hardware. You avoided him. Hopefully you'd have seen him with your Mark I eyeballs, too, but in any case, on-board traffic detection appears to have helped.

You can't take ownership of or make assumptions about the other pilot's actions. Whether he saw you or not, whether you appeared as a target to him or not on his display, is unknown.

We have to see and avoid. ADS-B should help us do that, over time. We can't rely on it instead of visual separation, but overall, it should help.

I think it's human nature to be less attentive when you know there is a system in place to warn you than if you know that the only way you will know is by looking yourself. We can pretend that we will look just as hard, but it's just human nature that we won't. For those that have had ADSB for awhile, as time goes on from their install, I believe they will "forget" that not all of us do yet and be not as alert.

You may disagree that ADSB will reduce people's attentiveness, but if so we will have to remain in disagreement.

 

[citizen5000]

I think it's human nature to be less attentive when you know there is a system in place to warn you than if you know that the only way you will know is by looking yourself.

Not how it works in real life. Been flying with ADS-B for three years. When you see and hear the warnings they are miles out and if at your altitude you look for them outside. You may already have gotten an ATC warning or not. You may already be looking outside or not. But with the tech you WILL look outside when you hear the audible and verify the target on your screen to determine where to look. Without it you have the whole sky and 100% of your time in the air to miss them (possibly too late).

 

[Stewartb]

If your car has proximity sensors, and most do these days, do you stop looking out the window when you pull into a parking space or back out of your garage? Of course not. You use the sensors as a tool to improve on what information your eyes provide. You nay-sayers are rationalizing.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

If your car has proximity sensors, and most do these days, do you stop looking out the window when you pull into a parking space or back out of your garage? Of course not. You use the sensors as a tool to improve on what information your eyes provide. You nay-sayers are rationalizing.

I agree with you. The best advantage to having ADS-B traffic is it tells you where to look specifically when it alerts, not replacing the eyeball traffic scan. How many would turn down an extra pair of eyeballs to help you scan for traffic? I set mine for 10 miles +-2k ft enroute, 5 miles on approach to the airport. leaves plenty of time to see the target if I haven't already.

Pretty much every naysayer I know personally has changed their mind after flying with the system, myself included.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

yup....my only question is which one to pair with my 530W?

 

[denverpilot]

The GPS satellites orbit the earth. The GPS WAAS antenna picks up its signal from the GPS satellites so it is mounted on top of the airplane. The ADSB transponder antenna is mounted on the bottom of the airplane.

Some aircraft have diversity antennas on top and bottom for ADS-B because of "blind spots". Only a couple of manufacturers (like the L-3 box mentioned) make a diversity reception system that's approved.

 

[Salty]

If your car has proximity sensors, and most do these days, do you stop looking out the window when you pull into a parking space or back out of your garage? Of course not. You use the sensors as a tool to improve on what information your eyes provide. You nay-sayers are rationalizing.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Even your comment that most cars have proximity detection today is demonstrably wrong, but also irrelevant.

Proximity detectors on cars is used when proximity is EXPECTED. Very different than cruising in an aircraft where 99% of the time there is nothing anywhere near you.

 

[EppyGA]

We will have to agree to disagree.

Even your comment that most cars have proximity detection today is demonstrably wrong, but also irrelevant.

Proximity detectors on cars is used when proximity is EXPECTED. Very different than cruising in an aircraft where 99% of the time there is nothing anywhere near you.

Proximity detectors allow you to text and drive

 

[denverpilot]

Proximity detectors allow you to text and drive

LOL! They also lower your insurance considerably. A friend went from a late-2000s Subaru to a new one recently with the Eyesight cameras and all the sensors and his insurance rate dropped by half. All the safety gear other than the Eyesight is identical between the two cars. The actuaries know something.

 

[Stewartb]

We will have to agree to disagree.

Even your comment that most cars have proximity detection today is demonstrably wrong, but also irrelevant.

Proximity detectors on cars is used when proximity is EXPECTED. Very different than cruising in an aircraft where 99% of the time there is nothing anywhere near you.

You apparently don't drive current model cars!

Like I said in another thread, we're all entitled to our own opinions but not to our own facts. It reminds me of changing my business software. My employees all hate it and swear they'll always hate it. Six months later they say they don't know how they ever got along without it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Yes, I do. But the part of my post that you quoted stated clearly why I won't mount anything on my yoke. Please read it again.

Ah, got it. Timer. There's a billion other solutions out there, though... Heck, you could even put the iPad on the copilot side.

How does broadcasting my ADS-B information (Out) help me to receive (In), if I'm only equipped for Out?? And no, I won't depend on an uncertified tablet to do anything I the air that I can tell do without it.

Well, it won't help, if you're being stubborn instead of using perfectly reasonable tools that are available to you. The FAA allows the use of ForeFlight in plenty of part 135 ops, and the military uses it as well.

Do you still use paper charts?

I don't think of myself as part of the "Bah, Humbug" crowd so much as the "I don't need this" crowd.

Bah, humbug!

Please read my post again where I said I will not use uncertified electronics for flight critical information. The last I heard, there are no tablets made, even the fancy Garmin ones (696, 796, etc.), that are certified for use in flight and capable of mounting in the panel. Bolt your iPad in and stop by your friendly local FSDO and see what happens . . .

Again, if it's good enough for the FAA to allow in Part 135, it's certainly good enough for me. It's not replacing my eyes, it's a tool to improve situational awareness. I've gotten plenty of traffic calls from ATC where I look out the window, don't see the plane, look at the iPad to get a better idea of where it really is, look back out and pick it right up. It beats the crap out of using nothing.

Build a decently priced ADS-B In unit that I can panel mount in place of something no longer needed (bye bye, transponder!) and I may change my mind, especially if I get tired of driving to Spruce from Coweta County since I can't get inside the 30nm line without it.

 

[citizen5000]

It is a completely false premise that TCAS and/or ADS-B stops/hinders outside cockpit scans. In fact, the tech makes the scans more focused and efficient.

 

[Salty]

You apparently don't drive current model cars!

Like I said in another thread, we're all entitled to our own opinions but not to our own facts. It reminds me of changing my business software. My employees all hate it and swear they'll always hate it. Six months later they say they don't know how they ever got along without it.

Your "facts" are proven to be the ones in the wrong yet again. I have two cars less than a year old, both with one notch down from the most expensive package available and NEITHER have proximity alerts. Apparently YOU don't realize that MOST people don't have current model, luxury class vehicles.

Funny how I politely agree to disagree, and you feel the need to disparage me for my opinion and attempt to claim I'm ignoring facts - all while you rudely make claims that are demonstrably false.

 

[Salty]

It is a completely false premise that TCAS and/or ADS-B stops/hinders outside cockpit scans. In fact, the tech makes the scans more focused and efficient.

I respectfully disagree. Human nature says otherwise.

 

[Salty]

There seems to be some strawman building that I don't see value in ADSB. That has never been my position.

 

[denverpilot]

It is a completely false premise that TCAS and/or ADS-B stops/hinders outside cockpit scans. In fact, the tech makes the scans more focused and efficient.

Flat false. It's physically not possible to scan properly with eyeballs inside.

These tools MIGHT work that way if they announced via AUDIO the direction to look, but without that, if all thy say is "Traffic, Traffic" your eyeballs HAVE to leave your outside scan and look at a screen to gather that new information.

You've also now mixed in TCAS which has VERY specific requirements about what it must communicate to the pilot, including escape maneuver suggested. Let's not mix in a very expensive technology with MUCH more capability than ADS-B into a discussion of ADS-B.

Most implementations of ADS-B traffic alerts and information are frankly, crap. They're not bad for a first effort by the coders, but they're not optimized for safety and known ergonomics in the slightest way, yet. If they were, you wouldn't have to LOOK at them.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Eyeballs come inside for a number of legitimate reasons and still maintain proper traffic scans. Are engine instruments in the green...back outside. On course and altitude...back outside...what's the OAT...back outside. Potential traffic conflicts within 10 miles? Back outside. You even gain awareness of targets overtaking from behind and to your right which a "proper" scan will never see.

You don't have to intently focus inside to glean any of this information. A quick glance will do.

 

[ifly4fun]

I'm kinda shocked this question hasn't been asked - but if you see traffic at 10 o'clock, visually or on your ADSB-IN, Why did you allow him to get within 200' of you?

 

[Ravioli]

If your car has proximity sensors, and most do these days, do you stop looking out the window when you pull into a parking space or back out of your garage? Of course not. You use the sensors as a tool to improve on what information your eyes provide. You nay-sayers are rationalizing.

Sensors, look outside. I have a backup camera. I don't look outside when using it because I back IN to parking spaces 99% of the time and use the camera for that.

But in an airplane? Always looking out the window! I won't touch ForeFlight or Garmin Pilot or WingX or anything else running on a tablet. Sometime around December 2019 I'll pick an ADS-B out option and be done with it. Probably will be a used GTX330-ES, since everyone is throwing money at new shnizzles.

 

[Grum.Man]

I still think the Garmin GTX-345 is the best ADS-B solution out right now. It replaces your transponder so you aren't adding or removing any hardware, has ADS-B in/out and can transmit wireless to a handheld device. There is about $1,300.00 difference between the installed price of the 345 vs the 335 with out only. Seems like a no brainer if you are already spending 8k to equip. With that said, I will wait till the last minute or not at all as it isn't something that I need. Been flying without it well enough and every year a more affordable option comes out.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

• I'm kinda shocked this question hasn't been asked - but if you see traffic at 10 o'clock, visually or on your ADSB-IN, Why did you allow him to get within 200' of you?

  
  Not sure what you mean here. ADS-B gives you both relative vertical and horizontal position. Traffic can be 10 o'clock, 5miles and 200' above or below. Plenty of time to take evasive action.

 

[Salty]

I'm kinda shocked this question hasn't been asked - but if you see traffic at 10 o'clock, visually or on your ADSB-IN, Why did you allow him to get within 200' of you?

He was very difficult for me to see being above him and him ascending me descending. Dark colored plane blended into the ground very well. I didn't see the traffic alert until he was less than a mile from me. It takes time to interpret the written alert ".9 miles low at 10 o'clock" before your brain even knows where to look, at least it does me.

At a conservative 250 mph closing speed I only had about 15 seconds to find him. Perhaps I'm foolish, but as a new pilot I don't feel comfortable taking evasive action before I have visual contact, so I had to find him before I could react. By then, he was pretty close.

 

[jsstevens]

And with all this debate, no discussion of how the ADS-B in data is displayed (on a map vs. text vs. AR goggles vs. 3d hologram) nor variability among pilots (some keep their eyes inside way to much even without ADS-B in or even glass. Some do an excellent job of keeping a scan on instruments or glass or displays AND outside whether or not they have ADS-B).

I believe the traffic input will distract some and help others do a better job of finding what's out there.

All of you are right. Sometimes.

Now, (this being POA) let the argument continue.

John

 

[Chip Sylverne]

And with all this debate, no discussion of how the ADS-B in data is displayed (on a map vs. text vs. AR goggles vs. 3d hologram) nor variability among pilots (some keep their eyes inside way to much even without ADS-B in or even glass. Some do an excellent job of keeping a scan on instruments or glass or displays AND outside whether or not they have ADS-B).

I believe the traffic input will distract some and help others do a better job of finding what's out there.

All of you are right. Sometimes.

Now, (this being POA) let the argument continue.

John

You make a good point. Mine is up on an MX20 center stack. My buddy's is BT to an iPad on his lap. Not nearly as convenient for the scan, IMHO.

 

[exncsurfer]

Sensors, look outside. I have a backup camera. I don't look outside when using it because I back IN to parking spaces 99% of the time and use the camera for that.

But in an airplane? Always looking out the window! I won't touch ForeFlight or Garmin Pilot or WingX or anything else running on a tablet. Sometime around December 2019 I'll pick an ADS-B out option and be done with it. Probably will be a used GTX330-ES, since everyone is throwing money at new shnizzles.

What if there was a device that you could configure to your specifications(like distance and altitude thresholds) that would just trigger audible alerts on the intercom based on the 'in' data? Would you use something like that? Kind of like your own backup 'flight following' traffic callouts. Then you can keep looking out the window.

 

[ifly4fun]

• 
  
  Not sure what you mean here. ADS-B gives you both relative vertical and horizontal position. Traffic can be 10 o'clock, 5miles and 200' above or below. Plenty of time to take evasive action.

He said the plane was 200' from him - there was no 5miles. More details following your post, makes sense what the conditions were. I was envisioning something more along the lines of your scenario, which would have given ample time to be no where near 200' before finally passing by.

 

[jsstevens]

You make a good point. Mine is up on an MX20 center stack. My buddy's is BT to an iPad on his lap. Not nearly as convenient for the scan, IMHO.

And there was one description earlier in the thread describing a text line "2 miles 10 o'clock +200 feet" which would be my last choice for traffic display. Lots of brain work involved in interpretation that's just not required these days.

Audible would be good (sometimes). I really think AR goggles or heads up display with a highlight on the traffic would be excellent if the AR tech was there. And the accuracy of the ADS-B was that good and current. But neither is true yet.

John

 

[exncsurfer]

And there was one description earlier in the thread describing a text line "2 miles 10 o'clock +200 feet" which would be my last choice for traffic display. Lots of brain work involved in interpretation that's just not required these days.

Audible would be good (sometimes). I really think AR goggles or heads up display with a highlight on the traffic would be excellent if the AR tech was there. And the accuracy of the ADS-B was that good and current. But neither is true yet.

John

What do you mean about the accuracy not being good and current? I thought the whole point of it was that it was more accurate and current than radar? (unless its not working as designed, which could be true, I haven't used it yet). Positions updated every second and required WAAS GPS accuracy, no?

 

[jsstevens]

What do you mean about the accuracy not being good and current? I thought the whole point of it was that it was more accurate and current than radar? (unless its not working as designed, which could be true, I haven't used it yet). Positions updated every second and required WAAS GPS accuracy, no?

If you have radar on board, ADS-B is certainly not more current than radar. It's at best seconds old. (And I'm only talking traffic. Weather is, in normal operation, up to 15 minutes old and can be silently much older.)

ADS-B out broadcasts your position, velocity (I assume in three dimensions) and identify every second. ADS-B in allows you to receive all those broadcasts. So the info is pretty good unless there's a lot of traffic and the positions are stepping on each other, then the data can age a bit. It does allow this info in places where there is no radar coverage.

That's once everybody has it. In the mean time, when you are close enough to a ground surveillance station and you have ADS-B out, the station will reposed with the same data for contacts that don't have ADS-B out. (i.e. primary targets and those with mode C and mode S transponders.)

That said, the position broadcast is based on the GPS location attached (whether external or international) to the ADS-B device. And those positions can be (although usually not) off by hundreds of meters or more. They require certified GPSs which means the GPS knows when it's lost and will warn you, but there is no such thing as GPS that always knows exactly where it is. The satellite signals are too weak for that. (Don't get me wrong, it's amazing tech and I use it every day. But know the limitations!)

Also, AR goggles orientation sensors are still way below the required accuracy for the highlighting to be useful. The best orientation sensors we have are in the +- 1 degree range. And that requires periodic external calibration. 1 degree is not nearly accurate enough for highlighting something 2-3 or more miles off.

John

 

[murphey]

yup....my only question is which one to pair with my 530W?

Either the $5k gtx 345 (no gps) from garmin is a no brainer with the 530. Or if you've got a tablet, use the classic $113 stratux and get the 335. Or if you're happy with current transponder, one of the remote 3x5.

 

[Ravioli]

What if there was a device that you could configure to your specifications(like distance and altitude thresholds) that would just trigger audible alerts on the intercom based on the 'in' data? Would you use something like that? Kind of like your own backup 'flight following' traffic callouts. Then you can keep looking out the window.

Most likely not. Many discussions of this type get around to the fact that the GNS series "only displays 8 targets" while others have many more. Like 30 or more, and then the toys have more than that.

Normally missing target 1 is enough. I guess in rare cases you'd see targets 1 and 2 and deviate to miss both. What's the sense of all the other? And while you're picking the route through them, who is looking out the window? Probably not the guy analyzing a bunch of them thar target thingies on the fish finder.

 

[exncsurfer]

Most likely not. Many discussions of this type get around to the fact that the GNS series "only displays 8 targets" while others have many more. Like 30 or more, and then the toys have more than that.

Normally missing target 1 is enough. I guess in rare cases you'd see targets 1 and 2 and deviate to miss both. What's the sense of all the other? And while you're picking the route through them, who is looking out the window? Probably not the guy analyzing a bunch of them thar target thingies on the fish finder.

Yea well, thats why I added 'that you could configure' so you might only HEAR ones you consider to be threats. Something that you don't have to look at.

 

[Stewartb]

Any of you antis fly with a moving mad GPS or iPad? Do uou use the obstacles feature? Ever notice the radio towers? That's one of my fav features when the air is scuzzy. Knowing where those towers are doesn't stop me from looking for them, it allows me to locate and avoid them better than I could have without the assist. I've never hit a tower because my eyes were inside looking at a screen for one. Best part, I'm aware of the tower location long before I'm close to it so I have the opportunity to avoid it completely or to continue towards it with knowledge of my position relative to it. Does that change how I look outside while piloting? Yes it does. It frees me to keep my eyes open rather than fixating on a tower that may or may not be there.

 

[ChiefPilot]

What if there was a device that you could configure to your specifications(like distance and altitude thresholds) that would just trigger audible alerts on the intercom based on the 'in' data? Would you use something like that? Kind of like your own backup 'flight following' traffic callouts. Then you can keep looking out the window.

That was a few evenings with the stratux source - certainly trivial to do for traffic that encroaches within a certain radius. It's not perfect, because the stratux only knows about track, not heading. Moreover, depending on the source of the traffic (direct or rebroadcast), the reported position lags the actual position by a non-trivial amount. For example, a TIS-B report would have suggested that the Blackhawk was at my 1:00, but I could see him at about 11:30 - he was crossing my path a mile or so in front of me from right to left. The latency associated with the FAA receiving the radar traffic, processing it, and sending me the traffic report meant that by the time the traffic was reported that traffic had moved a fair amount.

Direct traffic broadcasts had little or no perceptible latency, as you'd expect. And for that reason, I think such an approach will be more accurate as we near the 2020 deadline. Still, I dropped the idea for now on the premise that incorrect information is probably worse than no information.

If you want to hack stratux to do this, have a look at traffic.go, specifically isTrafficAlertable(), for a starting point. It's just the generic code I submitted a few weeks ago, but that'd be a great place to add the audio alerts etc (and was where my proof-of-concept did it's thing).

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Either the $5k gtx 345 (no gps) from garmin is a no brainer with the 530. Or if you've got a tablet, use the classic $113 stratux and get the 335. Or if you're happy with current transponder, one of the remote 3x5.

already have an ADS-B "in" box that I use with an iPad WingX setup.....so I'm thinking of an GTX330ES or the King KT-74 with ES. Both allow my turbo use above 18K feet....but I'm not ruling out the NavWorx ADS600B 2.0 when they get that worked out.

and I'm hearing rumors of other cheaper boxes coming available in a year or so.....

 

[citizen5000]

I respectfully disagree. Human nature says otherwise.

The tech is no different than any other instrument in the plane. By your reasoning there should be nothing inside the cockpit because all of it would cause a distraction.

How long have you been using ADS-B in/out?