ADSB out creating more risk until 2020

Salty

Salty

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Salty
Just an opinion, but this weekend I had a close call with an aircraft climbing toward me at my 10 o clock, while I was descending. We were easily within 200 feet and he showed no sign he ever saw me.

How do I jump from this experience to my conclusion? I'm glad you asked.

The other pilot had ADSB out and I do not. I do have ADSB in. I was notified of him and reacted accordingly but he just kept going. I think until everyone is compliant, those that have been compliant for some time are going to be less cautious. I was far easier for him to see than he was for me. He just wasn't looking. I'm not going to claim having traffic information causes people to be less vigilant, but the reality is that it probably does at least to a small degree.

I think things are going to get worse until everyone is compliant. Those with "out" already, please remember all us cheap bastards are still out there sneaking around...
 
Well it's better than nothing. I've got TIS in the plane and TAS in the helicopter and I still scan just as much with it as with out. No need to stare at the display. If something pops up, I can see it in my normal Instrument scan. While VMC, that takes a split second and I'm back outside.

One thing I noticed going into SNF, forget about trying to figure out who's who in a dense environment. Just need to have your head on a swivel outside, because there's no way of tracking all the "sharks in the water" on some display.
 
Some people look out their windows, some don't. Some have blind spots due to wings, cowlings, attitude, etc., some don't. It's good to remind everybody to keep vigilant, but it seems a stretch to posit a causal relationship between this incident and ADSB.

It may seem counter-intuitive, but I think having the ADSB traffic display has improved my visual scan. Knowing how many airplanes that are out there, that I normally would not have seen, has made me more vigilant.
 
"The other pilot had ADSB out and I do not. I do have ADSB in. I was notified of him and reacted accordingly but he just kept going."

Just because they have ADS-B Out doesn't mean they have ADS-B In also.
 
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Velocity173 said:
I've got TIS in the plane and TAS in the helicopter and I still scan just as much with it as with out. ..Just need to have your head on a swivel outside, because there's no way of tracking all the "sharks in the water" on some display.
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I have TIS/TCAS and ADS-B in/out. In places like California the screen is very crowded with redundant targets (ADS-B draws an arrow, TCAS draws diamonds and circles).

The audible warnings make sure you do not miss a target that may become a problem. At that point looking down the closest targets are color coded and flashing.

Those who do not have ADS-B "in" will not understand or accept the value of the system and see the mandate to equip ADS-B "out" as a burden they should not have to withstand.
 
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citizen5000 said:
I have TIS/TCAS and ADS-B in/out. In places like California the screen is very crowded with redundant targets (ADS-B draws an arrow, TCAS draws diamonds and circles).

The audible warnings make sure you do not miss a target that may become a problem. At that point looking down the closest targets are color coded and flashing.

Those who do not have ADS-B "in" will not understand or accept the value of the system and see the mandate to equip ADS-B "out" as a burden they should not have to withstand.
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Oh, I got plenty of color coding last weekend. The problem is trying to make out the other pilot's intentions. There isn't enough definition in the display to make an accurate decision. Therefore, it's best to truck along and try to acquire visually before you do something aggressive and cause a conflict with another aircraft.

Still, I consider all the traffic systems as an invaluable tool. Not a no go item but definitely nice to have.
 
Wow. You got yourself a scare there. It's true you can't tell where the guy is going or whether they will suddenly ascend or descend. We have asked ATC if they see him (if very close) and advise. Or strain to try to find the guy in the sky now that you know for sure he is there. Even with the target nicely displayed with altitude delta and direction of flight it can be nearly impossible to see them physically until they are flying past you sometimes if ATC is not talking to them.
 
Salty said:
Just an opinion, but this weekend I had a close call with an aircraft climbing toward me at my 10 o clock, while I was descending. We were easily within 200 feet and he showed no sign he ever saw me.

How do I jump from this experience to my conclusion? I'm glad you asked.

The other pilot had ADSB out and I do not. I do have ADSB in. I was notified of him and reacted accordingly but he just kept going. I think until everyone is compliant, those that have been compliant for some time are going to be less cautious. I was far easier for him to see than he was for me. He just wasn't looking. I'm not going to claim having traffic information causes people to be less vigilant, but the reality is that it probably does at least to a small degree.

I think things are going to get worse until everyone is compliant. Those with "out" already, please remember all us cheap bastards are still out there sneaking around...
Click to expand...
If you were in a TRSA and ATC had you on their display, would the adsb-out guy be able to see you (the non-adsb-out target)? I thought the mode C stuff got fed into the adsb system as well.
 
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Salty said:
Just an opinion, but this weekend I had a close call with an aircraft climbing toward me at my 10 o clock, while I was descending. We were easily within 200 feet and he showed no sign he ever saw me.

How do I jump from this experience to my conclusion? I'm glad you asked.

The other pilot had ADSB out and I do not. I do have ADSB in. I was notified of him and reacted accordingly but he just kept going. I think until everyone is compliant, those that have been compliant for some time are going to be less cautious. I was far easier for him to see than he was for me. He just wasn't looking. I'm not going to claim having traffic information causes people to be less vigilant, but the reality is that it probably does at least to a small degree.

I think things are going to get worse until everyone is compliant. Those with "out" already, please remember all us cheap bastards are still out there sneaking around...
Click to expand...

You do realize that most mid airs occur in the pattern where ADSB is about worthless and all aircraft are not required to have ADSB after 2020?
 
Clip4 said:
You do realize that most mid airs occur in the pattern where ADSB is about worthless and all aircraft are not required to have ADSB after 2020?
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Yes, I am.
 
Clip4 said:
You do realize that most mid airs occur in the pattern where ADSB is about worthless and all aircraft are not required to have ADSB after 2020?
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Pattern flying is not enroute flying. Towered airports take care of separation but vigilance is still required. Non towered airports are accidents waiting to happen regardless of collions avoidance tech.
 
Gotta tell you, this is another reason I hate the iJunk and androcrap. The guys who reply to "Archer XYZ, traffic twelve o'clock opposite direction 3 miles [same altitude]" with "Got 'em on the fish finder"

How cool is that?

I flew with a guy that on EVERY traffic call, no lie, looked down at his iJunk before looking out the window. Won't ever fly with him again. Also no lie.
 
I've had plenty of close calls over the years without ADS-B. The only difference now is you can see how many other planes are out there that you didn't see before.
 
citizen5000 said:
Pattern flying is not enroute flying. Towered airports take care of separation but vigilance is still required. Non towered airports are accidents waiting to happen regardless of collions avoidance tech.
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Towered airports aren't that great, either. I've had more than one event where I saw the "IFR practice" pilot doing the missed procedure WRONG, and the tower either ignored or wasn't paying attention and forgot to inform me. Fortunately I saw and evaded about 30 seconds before the tower called traffic. Most of us feel the airport was safer and pilots more careful before we got the tower.
 
citizen5000 said:
I have TIS/TCAS and ADS-B in/out. In places like California the screen is very crowded with redundant targets (ADS-B draws an arrow, TCAS draws diamonds and circles).

The audible warnings make sure you do not miss a target that may become a problem. At that point looking down the closest targets are color coded and flashing.

Those who do not have ADS-B "in" will not understand or accept the value of the system and see the mandate to equip ADS-B "out" as a burden they should not have to withstand.
Click to expand...

There's no room in my panel to add any new equipment unless I take something out. All of the "in" benefits require adding something to the panel, or adding a non-certified display somewhere; can't yoke mount it, I'd lose the clock I use for flight time, time of day and changing fuel tanks. So I'll keep saving my ADS-B money and use it for avgas.

So it will be a long time before I start "showing up" on your tablets, and you will not show up on mine, either. Besides, it's usually in a bag in the back anyway; I wouldn't trust it with anything flight critical, and I really hate zooming in on the sectional to read it then zooming out to look ahead and zooming in again to read what's up there. In turbulence. Or seeing anything on it in bright sunshine.

Right now, ADS-B is but a half thought out flight tracker with limited benefits. The FAA knows many planes have no room for additional displays, so they "allowed" developers access to put the info on uncertified displays that we are not permitted to install . . . "Looky here at the neat stuff you can see. Just don't you dare attach the display to your plane or we'll bust you a new one. But ain't it pretty? Dontcha want one?" No thanks . . .
 
Salty said:
Just an opinion, but this weekend I had a close call with an aircraft climbing toward me at my 10 o clock, while I was descending. We were easily within 200 feet and he showed no sign he ever saw me.

How do I jump from this experience to my conclusion? I'm glad you asked.

The other pilot had ADSB out and I do not. I do have ADSB in. I was notified of him and reacted accordingly but he just kept going. I think until everyone is compliant, those that have been compliant for some time are going to be less cautious. I was far easier for him to see than he was for me. He just wasn't looking. I'm not going to claim having traffic information causes people to be less vigilant, but the reality is that it probably does at least to a small degree.

I think things are going to get worse until everyone is compliant. Those with "out" already, please remember all us cheap bastards are still out there sneaking around...
Click to expand...
I've never heard of anyone who got out installed and not in as well. While technically possible it makes no sense to spend 4 or 5 thousand to get out and not get in as well. So he had just as much warning as you did. If you saw him on a radar repeated ADSB out transmission he would have gotten the same thing. Now what he did with that information is another story.
 
jtheune said:
I've never heard of anyone who got out installed and not in as well. While technically possible it makes no sense to spend 4 or 5 thousand to get out and not get in as well. So he had just as much warning as you did. If you saw him on a radar repeated ADSB out transmission he would have gotten the same thing. Now what he did with that information is another story.
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The quotes I've been getting are $3-4K difference between the Out and the Out/In. Overall, that's almost 30% of the value of the airplane. It's a financial decision. Is it really worth 30% of the airplane value to fully equip ADSB or just $5-6K for the Out when the $150 stratux provides the In option?
 
murphey said:
The quotes I've been getting are $3-4K difference between the Out and the Out/In. Overall, that's almost 30% of the value of the airplane. It's a financial decision. Is it really worth 30% of the airplane value to fully equip ADSB or just $5-6K for the Out when the $150 stratux provides the In option?
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I'm not an ownwer, but with the rate of technology advance, I would think prices and options will improve still. If someone gets a wireless solution approved how cheap could they get? Look at Levil's Beacon and BOM products: http://aviation.levil.com/products.html
 
jtheune said:
I've never heard of anyone who got out installed and not in as well. While technically possible it makes no sense to spend 4 or 5 thousand to get out and not get in as well. So he had just as much warning as you did. If you saw him on a radar repeated ADSB out transmission he would have gotten the same thing. Now what he did with that information is another story.
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I have out installed but only portable in. So now you've heard it. I suspect there are many others who had a 330 who just swapped it for a 330es for minimal installation cost.
 
Clark1961 said:
I have out installed but only portable in. So now you've heard it. I suspect there are many others who had a 330 who just swapped it for a 330es for minimal installation cost.
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Right. If you have a Stratus or Stratux already with one of the major efb apps, no functionality is gained by adding ADS-B in to the airplane itself.
 
dell30rb said:
Right. If you have a Stratus or Stratux already with one of the major efb apps, no functionality is gained by adding ADS-B in to the airplane itself.
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While on the surface the statement is true in use there is a difference between installed and portable ads-b in equipment. There are parts of the country where the built-in stratus antenna is inadequate. It doesn't bother me enough to do anything about it but it is an operational consideration.
 
A few have collided in Alaska in the past couple of years. That's a few too many in my opinion. We have amazing technology in our lives. Having it in our planes is too simple to not utilize it. Most of the critics of ADS-B technology have very limited or no experience with it. Everyone with more than half a brain realizes we still need to look outside.
 
Salty said:
The other pilot had ADSB out and I do not. I do have ADSB in. I was notified of him and reacted accordingly but he just kept going. I think until everyone is compliant, those that have been compliant for some time are going to be less cautious. I was far easier for him to see than he was for me. He just wasn't looking. I'm not going to claim having traffic information causes people to be less vigilant, but the reality is that it probably does at least to a small degree.

I think things are going to get worse until everyone is compliant. Those with "out" already, please remember all us cheap bastards are still out there sneaking around...
Click to expand...

Except if he had ADS-B Out, he could see you too, if you were within radar coverage. Probably wasn't looking out the window OR at the traffic display. And that's nothing new - But for those who don't look out the window enough (which is probably all of us at some times), having another thing to alert you to nearby airplanes can help.

Hank S said:
There's no room in my panel to add any new equipment unless I take something out. All of the "in" benefits require adding something to the panel, or adding a non-certified display somewhere; can't yoke mount it, I'd lose the clock I use for flight time, time of day and changing fuel tanks. So I'll keep saving my ADS-B money and use it for avgas.
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I think you fly a Mooney, right? Why can't you yoke mount it? I use a yoke mounted iPad Mini that doesn't block anything important in the Ovation.

Besides, with a Mooney, you don't need near as much money for avgas as others do. ;p

But if you get ADS-B Out (via a transponder swap is plenty, no extra space required), everyone will show up on your tablet if you're in radar coverage thanks to ADS-R, regardless of whether they are equipped with ADS-B Out.

So it will be a long time before I start "showing up" on your tablets, and you will not show up on mine, either.
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Again - Not true if you're within radar coverage. If *neither* of you has Out, yes, visual reference is the only thing that'll help. If *one* of you has Out and you're within radar coverage, the guy with Out will be able to see the guy without thanks to ADS-R and the guy without Out will be able to see the one with because, well, he's broadcasting position. If *both* of you had out, you'd both see each other regardless of radar coverage. Kinda silly that where it's most needed it won't be required, but somebody's gotta please you and the rest of the "Bah Humbug" crowd.
 
I don't know if someone said this already but, he could have been 'out only', as that is the only requirement, some are only equipping for 'out'.

Would be kind of silly to have 'out' and not at least take advantage of all the 'in' information that your own plane is triggering from the ground stations, even if its only via a $150 stratux.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I think you fly a Mooney, right? Why can't you yoke mount it? I use a yoke mounted iPad Mini that doesn't block anything important in the Ovation.

Yes, I do. But the part of my post that you quoted stated clearly why I won't mount anything on my yoke. Please read it again.

But if you get ADS-B Out (via a transponder swap is plenty, no extra space required), everyone will show up on your tablet if you're in radar coverage thanks to ADS-R, regardless of whether they are equipped with ADS-B Out.

How does broadcasting my ADS-B information (Out) help me to receive (In), if I'm only equipped for Out?? And no, I won't depend on an uncertified tablet to do anything I the air that I can tell do without it.

Again - Not true if you're within radar coverage. If *neither* of you has Out, yes, visual reference is the only thing that'll help. If *one* of you has Out and you're within radar coverage, the guy with Out will be able to see the guy without thanks to ADS-R and the guy without Out will be able to see the one with because, well, he's broadcasting position. If *both* of you had out, you'd both see each other regardless of radar coverage. Kinda silly that where it's most needed it won't be required, but somebody's gotta please you and the rest of the "Bah Humbug" crowd.
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I don't think of myself as part of the "Bah, Humbug" crowd so much as the "I don't need this" crowd.

Please read my post again where I said I will not use uncertified electronics for flight critical information. The last I heard, there are no tablets made, even the fancy Garmin ones (696, 796, etc.), that are certified for use in flight and capable of mounting in the panel. Bolt your iPad in and stop by your friendly local FSDO and see what happens . . .

Build a decently priced ADS-B In unit that I can panel mount in place of something no longer needed (bye bye, transponder!) and I may change my mind, especially if I get tired of driving to Spruce from Coweta County since I can't get inside the 30nm line without it.

And no, ripping out my G430W and putting in a GTN650 is far, far, far from reasonably priced!! Even after selling the 430, that would still run 10 AMU or more net cost. No thank you . . . My Stormscope does a good job painting the weather, and my only close call was some genius crossing the departure end of the runway one evening a whole mile out to enter downwind as I was taking off; bozo hadn't bothered listening to UNICOM to catch my taxi or departure calls, either, but I answered his ATTITPPA call anyway when my landing light lit him up as I came over the trees. 10 years, one jerk--not worth $10,000 of my money.
 
Hank S said:
I don't think of myself as part of the "Bah, Humbug" crowd so much as the "I don't need this" crowd.

Please read my post again where I said I will not use uncertified electronics for flight critical information. The last I heard, there are no tablets made, even the fancy Garmin ones (696, 796, etc.), that are certified for use in flight and capable of mounting in the panel. Bolt your iPad in and stop by your friendly local FSDO and see what happens . . .

Build a decently priced ADS-B In unit that I can panel mount in place of something no longer needed (bye bye, transponder!) and I may change my mind, especially if I get tired of driving to Spruce from Coweta County since I can't get inside the 30nm line without it.

And no, ripping out my G430W and putting in a GTN650 is far, far, far from reasonably priced!! Even after selling the 430, that would still run 10 AMU or more net cost. No thank you . . . My Stormscope does a good job painting the weather, and my only close call was some genius crossing the departure end of the runway one evening a whole mile out to enter downwind as I was taking off; bozo hadn't bothered listening to UNICOM to catch my taxi or departure calls, either, but I answered his ATTITPPA call anyway when my landing light lit him up as I came over the trees. 10 years, one jerk--not worth $10,000 of my money.
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Nevermind that there is information floating around through the airwaves that could prevent a disaster, if my receiving device doesn't have an FAA Stamp on it, it doesn't exist to me, ... Ok. Anywho...
 
Ive got a quote for removing a KX155 and its VOR head, removing a King KLN90B IFR/GPS, removing a King Transponder and replacing it with a Garmin 650 and a new VOR head and a Garmin ADSB Transponder all for the princely sum of $25,000!!
 
coloradobluesky said:
Ive got a quote for removing a KX155 and its VOR head, removing a King KLN90B IFR/GPS, removing a King Transponder and replacing it with a Garmin 650 and a new VOR head and a Garmin ADSB Transponder all for the princely sum of $25,000!!
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When are you equipping? After all, this is ADS-B! :smilewinkgrin:
 
Garmin's GTX23-ES txp with GPS20A waas gps and GDL39-R. ADS-B in and out upgrade for under $2500.00 compared to the same system without ADS-B. Done.
 
Stewartb said:
Garmin's GTX23-ES txp with GPS20A waas gps and GDL39-R. ADS-B in and out upgrade for under $2500.00 compared to the same system without ADS-B. Done.
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What does weather & traffic display on? Do I really need to buy and install another WAAS GPS? Those antennas are pricey, and the whole interior has to come out to put it up there on the roof.
 
Salty said:
I think things are going to get worse until everyone is compliant. Those with "out" already, please remember all us cheap bastards are still out there sneaking around...
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I can't trace the path you followed to your conclusion.

At the base level there are two airplanes with the requirement to see and avoid each other. Has been before, still is, always shall be.

You saw a target with your ADS-B "In" hardware. You avoided him. Hopefully you'd have seen him with your Mark I eyeballs, too, but in any case, on-board traffic detection appears to have helped.

You can't take ownership of or make assumptions about the other pilot's actions. Whether he saw you or not, whether you appeared as a target to him or not on his display, is unknown.

We have to see and avoid. ADS-B should help us do that, over time. We can't rely on it instead of visual separation, but overall, it should help.
 
Hank S said:
Build a decently priced ADS-B In unit that I can panel mount in place of something no longer needed (bye bye, transponder!) and I may change my mind, especially if I get tired of driving to Spruce from Coweta County since I can't get inside the 30nm line without it.
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The unit you're looking for is the L-3 Lynx with that panel mount all-in-one requirement of yours, but they're too spendy for what they do. If they were about $1500-$2000 cheaper they'd actually be competitive.

And your protest that the interior needs to come out to put the GPS antenna on the roof... why? Put it on the tail.
 
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