ADS-B Practicalities

I believe the upper limit for all of them was 3 Watts, but if the bag had a different power rating, it still was essentially a car phone in a bag. Yes, the car phone was before the bag. I had my first car phone in 87 and my first brick at the same time. I never saw a bag until a few years later, but just because I never saw one before then doesn’t mean they did not exist before then. I believe that the chronology is the car phone first, the brick second and the bag later.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I could fly with charts and a whizwheel again too, but I’d rather not.
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Of course not, neither would I. But the other (now banned) poster said he wouldn't fly now without all the gee-whiz stuff, period. To me that's taking it too far.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I believe the upper limit for all of them was 3 Watts, but if the bag had a different power rating, it still was essentially a car phone in a bag. Yes, the car phone was before the bag. I had my first car phone in 87 and my first brick at the same time. I never saw a bag until a few years later, but just because I never saw one before then doesn’t mean they did not exist before then. I believe that the chronology is the car phone first, the brick second and the bag later.
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I don’t remember the limits but I definitely remember than the bricks were not as powerful as the bags and the installed ones. They also, of course, had compromised antenna systems and lower antenna gain.

The bricks couldn’t do 3W because, if nothing else, their NiCD batteries couldn’t provide the current necessary for longer than a couple of minutes before they’d be dead.

Oh well. Ancient tech. Worked well for what it was at the time. Remember when they used to give refunds for all dropped calls because calls were expensive and dropped calls were unacceptable to the carriers and users? Haha. I don’t think I paid for 50% of my calls back then.

It was four drops per conversation and then an immediate short code to customer service for credit. And back then they actually had real time billing. They could see your calls you hung up on moments before. Now they’re lucky to post them in 24 hours. Ha.
 
Mostly you're getting free weather and ATC services below levels where radar might pick you up, as well as traffic. Keep in mind that, with ADS-B out, you have the advantage of seeing all the traffic, not just those that also have ADS=B out, but also radar TIS-B traffic where-ever ATC can see them, you can too. That's advantage enought to have ADS-B, especially to those of us flying IFR for well ober a decade.
 
SbestCFII said:
Mostly you're getting free weather and ATC services below levels where radar might pick you up, as well as traffic. Keep in mind that, with ADS-B out, you have the advantage of seeing all the traffic, not just those that also have ADS=B out, but also radar TIS-B traffic where-ever ATC can see them, you can too. That's advantage enought to have ADS-B, especially to those of us flying IFR for well ober a decade.
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* caveats:

Free weather below radar.

No free ATC services. “Radar service terminated, Squawk 1200” is still the order of the day even if your ADS-B Out is being received if you’re out of radar coverage. ADS-B is never primary.

You have the advantage of seeing the traffic that isn’t blocked by your own fuselage on Mode-S receivers and whatever Mode-S makes it down to and back out of the computers and properly back onto the uplink in UAT. There is no guarantee of either one. It’s not designed for retry-retransmission of lost data for any reason. There’s also no monitoring nor flags for outages, nor NOTAMs for long term outages for any component of ADS-B.

...

In other words, don’t sell it higher than its design capabilities. It’s not exactly designed nor operated to get those things to and from the pilot as you described them.

Describing it directly as it is designed really shows the bad design and hodge-podge engineering that it really is. Huge list of “what if’s” and failure modes, and no promises they won’t happen at the most inopportune time.
 
ADSB-IN - yes, I like it, especially when flying through a busy Class B area or on Victor airways, which is my preferred route.

The issue I have with it is that it quickly becomes overwhelmed with airline traffic 20,000' above me at various flight levels. My screen looks like a mess and can look like an airplane parking lot. Yes, Garmin Pilot does call out aircraft as they get within a prescribed distance to you, but I would rather be able to filter out traffic that is above a specific vertical distance from me.

Maybe Garmin Pilot has this feature and I don't know about it or how to set it?
 
My 345 installation has a traffic mute button to block out audio reports when necessary so you carry on important radio communication.
 
MBDiagMan said:
My 345 installation has a traffic mute button to block out audio reports when necessary so you carry on important radio communication.
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that's up to the installer....it can be setup several different ways. One with no mute...or on an Aux channel...or whatever your audio panel allows. Garmin has it going into a non-mutable channel in their audio panel. Mine is setup into an Aux channel....that can be muted.
 
jimmyjack said:
The data represented in Foreflight via ADSB-In absolutely destroys anything that ATC will relay to you in an audio format.

ATC isn't going to give me a formatted list of NOTAMS.
ATC isn't going to give me PIREPS georeferenced on a moving map.
ATC isn't going (to want to) give me TAFs for all the nearby airports.
ATC isn't going to give me RADAR coverage. I've heard the delayed/incomplete argument before. I find it beyond suitable for reasonable use.
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NOTAMS are usually covered even before I take off, I have not encountered a NOTAM that popped up in the time I was flying.
PIREPS, sadly are far and few between. Pilots love getting them, but are usually too lazy to give them. Last few years on briefings have had on average 1 or 2 PIREPS.
TAFS, Same thing, unless I have been flying for 5 straight hours would have been covered prior to takeoff.
TRAFFIC, great tool, but I have found many pilots gave up looking for traffic, they just stare at the screen.

Actual radar is the biggest benefit. Even though there is a delay you can see where a TS Cell is heading.
 
Stephen Shore said:
ADSB-IN - yes, I like it, especially when flying through a busy Class B area or on Victor airways, which is my preferred route.

The issue I have with it is that it quickly becomes overwhelmed with airline traffic 20,000' above me at various flight levels. My screen looks like a mess and can look like an airplane parking lot. Yes, Garmin Pilot does call out aircraft as they get within a prescribed distance to you, but I would rather be able to filter out traffic that is above a specific vertical distance from me.

Maybe Garmin Pilot has this feature and I don't know about it or how to set it?
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ForeFlight has traffic filtering. Just sayin', @denverpilot. ;)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
ForeFlight has traffic filtering. Just sayin', @denverpilot. ;)
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As does GP, as I recall, by altitude but I’d have to check at home where the iPad is.

GP also has a dedicated traffic screen that’s great if you already have the map up on the GTN in busy airspace. Pinch zoomable. Works very well.

Were you thinking GP didn’t have filtering?
 
James331 said:
If someone here can't take a little name calling on the interwebz heaven help them when something that's actually serious happens,

Guess that's a difference between this this type of pilot



And this type of pilot





Oh well
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I hope that second woman is no longer a commercial pilot. That was so bad on so many levels.
 
denverpilot said:
As does GP, as I recall, by altitude but I’d have to check at home where the iPad is.

Were you thinking GP didn’t have filtering?
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Well, the previous poster clearly didn't know where to find it if it is there, and you aren't sure it's there...

But really I'm just poking the bear. LOL (Hint: You're the bear.)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Well, the previous poster clearly didn't know where to find it if it is there, and you aren't sure it's there...

But really I'm just poking the bear. LOL (Hint: You're the bear.)
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Never had so much traffic on the screen I worried about it. Even in the Bravo. But I don’t tend to zoom out that far, since I know where I’m going before I take off. :)

The dedicated traffic screen is really a nice feature. If not “actively” using the iPad for something and just following the magenta line on the GTN, it’s usually parked there. Of course the traffic also overlays just fine, but in busy airspace where I’m already looking out the window and know where I’m going, a nice big iPad mini sized traffic circle is nice.

Of course I know better than to trust ADS-B to see everyone, and it’s advisory only, but for participating traffic like a bunch of the various club and school aircraft in the practice areas, it works very well as the primary screen. It can be split screened also, I think. I don’t split screen the mini very often.

Want to go fly and test this stuff out some more but strangest thing here. Our airplane was scheduled to be picked up and moved into maintenance mid-last week and co-owner reports that it still hasn’t moved. Not impressed with the on field maintenance shop we’ve used successfully for various things at all right now. No call back on voice mail, nothing.

Almost a week of business days later and nobody’s touched the airplane after telling us their first opening was three weeks out and us scheduling it now almost a month ago.

If they’re billing as high as they always have, it’s a bad combo. No info, no calls, high prices. Ugh.
 
@Stephen Shore try setting the fillers in the top left of the Garmin Pilot traffic screen. I believe the filters carry over to the main traffic overlay, but I can’t test it right now.

Was going to screenshot them myself for you, but I forgot that screen gets dimmed and covered with a banner “No ADS-B Data” when not connected to the aircraft or other ADS-B In source.

So here it is from iPad pilot website from back in 2014 when the dedicated traffic screen was introduced... scroll down to item two I think it is.

https://ipadpilotnews.com/2014/07/6-new-garmin-pilot-tips-tricks/

Ping @flyingcheesehead ... dedicated traffic page since 2014... I thought ForeFlight always beat Garmin Pilot to all new features? Poking back.
 
denverpilot said:
Ping @flyingcheesehead ... dedicated traffic page since 2014... I thought ForeFlight always beat Garmin Pilot to all new features? Poking back.
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I'll see your poke, and raise you this:

Why does an EFB need a dedicated traffic screen?

I sometimes use the traffic screen on the GTN, but only when things get close, and that's because normally I'm on the map page with autozoom, so I'm usually zoomed waayyyyyyyyy out.

On the iPad with ForeFlight, I tend to keep it so that my 50nm ring is just inside the edge of the screen in Track Forward mode, so it's still relatively easy to see where traffic is relative to me, without having to switch to a traffic page.

Speaking of which, while I think it's smart of Garmin to have the UI of the GTN series and Garmin Pilot be similar, frankly, that interface could use some work. I coughed up the extra dough to get the voice control audio panel so I can just say "Show Traffic" when I need to instead of that annoying page->home->page thing you have to do otherwise.

It annoys me enough that I think if I used Garmin Pilot primarily, I'd be saying "Hey Siri, show traffic!" :rofl: (Note for the uninformed: That doesn't actually work.)

This whole thing reminds me of when everyone was ripping on ForeFlight for not having split screen, and instead they came out with something much better: Plates on Maps. That means that instead of seeing two too-small representations, you get all the information you want on one screen - Where you are now even if you're not on the plate, plus traffic and weather.

Both of them show traffic. That's what's important.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I'll see your poke, and raise you this:

Why does an EFB need a dedicated traffic screen?
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Because sometimes all you want to see is traffic? :)

Why does ForeFlight have a dedicated approach plate viewer? You say the plate on chart is better, so who needs it? :)

Same diff. You asked, and then gave a perfect example.

You probably want dedicated viewers for anything that can be layers like those in any UI. Sometimes you just want to see one thing.
 
denverpilot said:
Because sometimes all you want to see is traffic? :)

Why does ForeFlight have a dedicated approach plate viewer? You say the plate on chart is better, so who needs it? :)

Same diff. You asked, and then gave a perfect example.

You probably want dedicated viewers for anything that can be layers like those in any UI. Sometimes you just want to see one thing.
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Hint: You can already do that. Just turn off all the other layers, and you're left with just traffic.
 
I am not seeing “Traffic” as a choice in my layers selections. I can connect to my GTX345 in the Mooney or Stratux in the Cessna and see the traffic on the screen, but I can’t see traffic as a selection.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I am not seeing “Traffic” as a choice in my layers selections. I can connect to my GTX345 in the Mooney or Stratux in the Cessna and see the traffic on the screen, but I can’t see traffic as a selection.
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You don’t have this?


e34f06aee549c12e69ec43d8312245a7.png
 
Normally I bin government conspiracy theories and ignore those who purvey them. However, once you install your new ADSB out solution you will be tracked by anyone with a computer who wishes to do so. That little bit of anonymity you had flying VFR is gone. This isn't the government tracking your movements, its your fellow citizens, which is considerably more frightening.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
btw....you do realize that mode S is tracked also....similarly to ADS-B out units?
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Sadly I do. It was more difficult to track you VFR with Mode C, though it could be done. Just took a bit of work. I think it sux that to be complaint with the Man I must have my activities become public knowledge. An aviation board sees like an appropriate place to ***** about it.
 
They make these things called breakers that randomly pop when flying VFR.
 
steingar said:
Sadly I do. It was more difficult to track you VFR with Mode C, though it could be done. Just took a bit of work. I think it sux that to be complaint with the Man I must have my activities become public knowledge. An aviation board sees like an appropriate place to ***** about it.
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If you are that paranoid....pull the transponder breaker and power your phone down. You can be tracked, listened and observed thru your iPhone camera and mic.
 
steingar said:
Sadly I do. It was more difficult to track you VFR with Mode C, though it could be done. Just took a bit of work. I think it sux that to be complaint with the Man I must have my activities become public knowledge. An aviation board sees like an appropriate place to ***** about it.
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I can get a Stingray to sell you.... :O

Then there's this: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/22/technology/amazon-facial-recognition.html And if you think that they're only selling it to police, I have a couple of bridges and some swampland to sell you. It's not that tough for individuals, groups, or the like to set up such a system, and will become even more common as the software is refined and put into the public domain.

I know someone who was transferring flights in China and picked up his bag at Customs so he could carry it on the plane. He was tracked to his gate, identified by name, and questioned as to why he took his bag instead of rechecking it (because the airline let him have a bigger carryon for the flight home...). That's pretty close to the reality here.

Welcome to the surveillance state.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
If you are that paranoid....pull the transponder breaker and power your phone down. You can be tracked, listened and observed thru your iPhone camera and mic.
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That's news to me. I don't see how it's even possible unless you have an app running that uses the camera/mic and transmits the images and sound, which (at least in the case of images) requires considerable bandwidth. Most places here in Vermont, cell signal is sufficiently weak that I can't even send text messages with embedded images when I want to. I can't see how that could possibly work.
 
azure said:
That's news to me. I don't see how it's even possible unless you have an app running that uses the camera/mic and transmits the images and sound, which (at least in the case of images) requires considerable bandwidth. Most places here in Vermont, cell signal is sufficiently weak that I can't even send text messages with embedded images when I want to. I can't see how that could possibly work.
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It can. It requires either a "malicious" app or software be loaded on the phone. Same with Android. Part of the reason that I never update apps on the phone when overseas. Some can allow remote-turn-on of the phone.

Here's an example. It requires that someone get access to your phone long enough to load it: https://spyera.com/iphone-spy-app/ The government stuff is even more stealthy. No reason it can't be packaged into a legit app (the Apple store folks don't pick up everything...)

Can't do it with an iPhone or most of the newer androids but the rule in confidential discussions for a long time was to remove the battery. It's also part of the reason that phones are prohibited in SCIFs.

It doesn't necessarily transmit in real time - most of the packages store info on the phone and transmit it when it gets to a location with bandwidth. Like a hotspot.
 
wsuffa said:
It can. It requires either a "malicious" app or software be loaded on the phone. Same with Android. Part of the reason that I never update apps on the phone when overseas. Some can allow remote-turn-on of the phone.

Here's an example. It requires that someone get access to your phone long enough to load it: https://spyera.com/iphone-spy-app/ The government stuff is even more stealthy. No reason it can't be packaged into a legit app (the Apple store folks don't pick up everything...)

Can't do it with an iPhone or most of the newer androids but the rule in confidential discussions for a long time was to remove the battery. It's also part of the reason that phones are prohibited in SCIFs.

It doesn't necessarily transmit in real time - most of the packages store info on the phone and transmit it when it gets to a location with bandwidth. Like a hotspot.
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That doesn't surprise me at all - as you say, YOU NEED TO HAVE AN APP RUNNING that runs the camera and sound system and transmits the bytes. I have no doubt that such apps exist, and probably malware as well, but that function is not built into the OS and it's not part of normal operation. You can't just track anyone with a cell phone that's on.

If some developer packaged that functionality into a legitimate app, I've no doubt the outcry would be deafening. Personally I'd uninstall any app like that in a heartbeat if I learned it did that.

And as I said, it's not likely to be a very effective way of tracking someone in places where cell coverage is spotty, like here in Vermont.
 
MBDiagMan said:
No, I did not specify that I am using FF. If this is a FF screen, how do I get to it.
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no, that's garmin pilot. sorry, I thought GP was mentioned so if u use FF, I can't help cause I don't use it.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
no worries....yer safe in Vermont. o_O
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Didn't say that, just that if you want to actually SPY on someone through their cell phone camera, you better make sure there's enough bandwidth where they are to get the data out. There's a lot of rural areas where that's going to be a non-starter, not just Vermont.
 
azure said:
Didn't say that, just that if you want to actually SPY on someone through their cell phone camera, you better make sure there's enough bandwidth where they are to get the data out. There's a lot of rural areas where that's going to be a non-starter, not just Vermont.
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Thank you....you should be fine. ;)
 
azure said:
You can't just track anyone with a cell phone that's on.

If some developer packaged that functionality into a legitimate app, I've no doubt the outcry would be deafening. Personally I'd uninstall any app like that in a heartbeat if I learned it did that.

And as I said, it's not likely to be a very effective way of tracking someone in places where cell coverage is spotty, like here in Vermont.
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You can track with something like a Stingray. And not all of those are in the hands of law enforcement. That will give location and identification.

You might not even know about a tracking app. I won't go into details, but it's easy enough to stealth something. And there are ways to install something without you knowing. Heck, even now-White House Chief of Staff had his phone compromised: https://www.engadget.com/2018/06/11/john-kelly-hacked-foia-request/

Video and voice can be stored-and-forwarded.

No, it's not very common. The likelihood of YOU being a target is slim to none. Unless, of course, one happens to be a government official, work with classified info, or be engaged in something that would attract corporate espionage. Not likely for YOU, but living in DC area, I know a number of people who WOULD attract such malware.
 
wsuffa said:
You can track with something like a Stingray. And not all of those are in the hands of law enforcement. That will give location and identification.
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Yes, that's pretty bad in the wrong hands, but as I understand it's just getting location information by tricking cell devices into connecting to it. We were talking about SPYware, surreptitiously sending images and sound picked up by smartphone hardware. I still don't see that as a threat to everyone, though certainly a lot of people could be vulnerable. (I may have accidentally diverted the conversation by using the word "tracking"... my bad.)

Video and voice can be stored-and-forwarded.
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I was thinking about that as well. Still of limited utility to spy on someone who lives out in the sticks and rarely comes within range of cell towers or wi-fi.

And just in case someone (pokes at @Checkout_my_Six ;)) thinks I'm only concerned about my personal security, I'm in a little island with (usually) excellent cell reception, surrounded by dead zones of varying sizes only a couple of miles away, and I have broadband and wi-fi too. So theoretically I'm NOT safe. Practically, I'm not terribly concerned, plus I'm pretty choosy about the software I load on my phone. But plenty of people in this area have no or very limited internet bandwidth, and they rely on landlines for phone because cell coverage is nil.
 
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