ADS-B Out and Passive Radar Homing Missile

Maxnr said:
For what its worth. You can tell when an AA fire control radar has you "locked up" because your transponder reply light is steady on. Ask me how I know.
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The radar doesn't cause that to happen, the IFF interrogator does. Radar and transponders work in different frequencies.
 
Did you do a forum search? I’m sure this has been covered ad nauseam before.
 
Maxnr said:
For what its worth. You can tell when an AA fire control radar has you "locked up" because your transponder reply light is steady on. Ask me how I know.
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Your APX (Mode 4) shouldn’t alert you to that. Probably had a 72 like I have in the man cave (below). Steady green is normal working condition. If it flashes, you’ve been interrogated by the “good guys.”

Your RWR will alert you to a lock. Like in 2004 in Iraq I got (computerized voice) “Fixed Wing! Fixed wing! Lock!” :eek:

Edit: yeah like @EvilEagle said.

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Most chaff carried by aircraft is TBC (track break chaff) intended to break the lock of a firecontrol radar and spoil the shot provided the aircraft is also maneuvering. It is designed for specific frequencies most of which are much higher than surveillance radars. TBC would have little operational effect over surveillance radar and it would have none if your transponder and/or ADSB out is on. Flares also are tuned to be as close to a jet exhaust in frequency as possible. Modern IR missiles would not be expected to be decoyed by an single civilian illumination flare as the flare rejection capability of modern missiles is quite good. Watch video of fighters dispensing chaff and flares and you'll see they are pumping out a lot if they are being engaged. A single flare of chaff burst would not be very effective. One of the Airplane movies had the pilot of a Concorde fire a flare pistol out the cockpit window to decoy an IR missile--totally ridiculous.​
 
qchen said:
The GPS position report is only broadcasted once a second. Unless the missile has a terminal guidance system/or equipped with nuclear warhead, this scenario is very unlikely.
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Most general aviation aircraft haven't moved much in one second.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
The patience required to sit on a burner login for four years and then drop this thread is epic. I’ll buy the first round. You’ve earned it for sure.
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Indeed. This is epic troll. The patience index is well above average. Sleeper cell quality. Al Qaeda would be proud (this is a joke, for the NSA sniffer meta-reading this :D).
 
Salty said:
How effective would a missile guidance system be that simply uses the adsb out data to track a target?
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At the risk of this being an actual, albeit hopefully theoretical, question: pulses are way to far apart for terminal phase targeting.
 
jsstevens said:
At the risk of this being an actual, albeit hopefully theoretical, question: pulses are way to far apart for terminal phase targeting.
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I’d assume altitude would be too “approximate” for terminal phase as well, but would it work well to get it in the neighborhood?
 
Not sure what the fuss is all about, I just hit the "Chaff Dispense" button on my transponder when ever my Garmin announces missile lock. The latest Garmin software update commands the AP to make a max authority turn away from the chaff and incoming missile.
 
Even if you go full Martha Lunken, they'll still track you with the chip you aren't aware was implanted in you. Next time you fly, wrap aluminum foil around your head. Coat your plane with bee's wax - it absorbs radar.
 
WDD said:
Even if you go full Martha Lunken, they'll still track you with the chip you aren't aware was implanted in you. Next time you fly, wrap aluminum foil around your head. Coat your plane with bee's wax - it absorbs radar.
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I've got 20 some hives so if you need any beeswax I'll be happy to donate...just to see someone do it
 
Just finished an A-7 book. During Desert Storm 60 bundles of chaff weren’t cutting it so they took empty coffee cans, filled them with chaff and when they jettisoned their ordnance, chaff would just fill the sky. It worked and not a single SAM hit an A-7 during the war. Lebanon? Not so much. :(
 
WDD said:
Even if you go full Martha Lunken, they'll still track you with the chip you aren't aware was implanted in you.
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That brings up another question....
Do you need two compass deviation cards based on if a vaccinated person is on board given that the magnetic field is strong enough to make a BRASS (non magnetic) Kwikset key stick to you?
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luvflyin said:
Ok. How do you know? Did the locker on tell you? Or did you just assume because you were out of AT
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luvflyin said:
Ok. How do you know? Did the locker on tell you? Or did you just assume because you were out of ATC Radar coverage? There coulda been something other than a fire control radar interrogating you maybe.
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I departed Mobile, AL in a Helo heading pretty much due south. I had carried out all preflight requirements including a call to FSS, particularly asking the status of Warning Areas W 453 & W 155. My route was down the dividing line between them. Got a "No activity and nothing planned." About 30 minutes into the flight (and 45 minutes after my FSS briefing) I saw some sort of boat or ship dead ahead about 5-7 miles. Came a little left to pass about 200 yds E at 1500' alt. Reply lite was steady on. I recalled that in previous years, reply lite came steady on just before being intercepted by US Customs Citations. You know of course, they had all been retrofitted with F-16 radars.

At about about a mile, ID'ed it as a USN Destroyer likely home ported in Mississippi. I noticed that ALL her guns were tracking me. Lite still on. She had the drop on me. I looked to the east about 2 miles and saw a plane towing a target. She let me pass. Lite went out 5 miles later.

I burned up the phone line to FSS when I returned to Mobile. I told the guy "YOU LIED TO ME!" He kinda shrugged and said that the Warning Areas could go hot on a 30 minute notice. There is no FSS remotes or ATC repeaters S of Mobile and E of the Mississippi river delta available. I had no means to get an update.

Back some decades when I was flying DustOff helos in Nam, I came across a USAF intel paper that there was a radar directed AA gun located in the Bong Song pass. The pass was a gap in the mountain range along the coast. Caught a flight up the pass 2 days later. Somebody had told me that you cold hear static cause by radar on the FM com radio. I heard some but it could have been anything.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
That brings up another question....
Do you need two compass deviation cards based on if a vaccinated person is on board given that the magnetic field is strong enough to make a BRASS (non magnetic) Kwikset key stick to you?
Screen-Shot-2021-06-10-at-6.21.00-PM-768x407.png
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That was hilarious. Ya really need to see the whole video, which I’m sure you have. Probably belongs in the Joke Thread:biggrin:
 
Maxnr said:
There is no FSS remotes or ATC repeaters S of Mobile and E of the Mississippi river delta available. I had no means to get an update.
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You can always call any of the coastline approach freq's and ask them about the status of the W-areas. They'll know if it's active.
 
wanttaja said:
Got a friend with a very low serial number Bonanza. It has a chute, for use with the WWII-style flare gun. Could you use that for justification for an STC?

Ron "Panache, not flare" Wanttaja
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My parent had an old Bonanza that had three paper-covered holes on the left side of the fuselage behind the wing with mounts for parachute flares in the baggage compartment.
 
Salty said:
I’d assume altitude would be too “approximate” for terminal phase as well, but would it work well to get it in the neighborhood?
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Yes, I'm sure it would though my original answer was based on just homing on the transmission, not decoding it for location. Terminal phase takes a lot of quick tracking especially considering the target will be doing whatever it can to evade...
 
Maxnr said:
I departed Mobile, AL in a Helo heading pretty much due south. I had carried out all preflight requirements including a call to FSS, particularly asking the status of Warning Areas W 453 & W 155. My route was down the dividing line between them. Got a "No activity and nothing planned." About 30 minutes into the flight (and 45 minutes after my FSS briefing) I saw some sort of boat or ship dead ahead about 5-7 miles. Came a little left to pass about 200 yds E at 1500' alt. Reply lite was steady on. I recalled that in previous years, reply lite came steady on just before being intercepted by US Customs Citations. You know of course, they had all been retrofitted with F-16 radars.

At about about a mile, ID'ed it as a USN Destroyer likely home ported in Mississippi. I noticed that ALL her guns were tracking me. Lite still on. She had the drop on me. I looked to the east about 2 miles and saw a plane towing a target. She let me pass. Lite went out 5 miles later.

I burned up the phone line to FSS when I returned to Mobile. I told the guy "YOU LIED TO ME!" He kinda shrugged and said that the Warning Areas could go hot on a 30 minute notice. There is no FSS remotes or ATC repeaters S of Mobile and E of the Mississippi river delta available. I had no means to get an update.

Back some decades when I was flying DustOff helos in Nam, I came across a USAF intel paper that there was a radar directed AA gun located in the Bong Song pass. The pass was a gap in the mountain range along the coast. Caught a flight up the pass 2 days later. Somebody had told me that you cold hear static cause by radar on the FM com radio. I heard some but it could have been anything.
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Thought it was likely something offshore. Ships are going to have surveillance radar, Carriers most definitely so. There’s the find airplanes and see who they are stuff and there’s the lock on to that puppy and shoot it down stuff. It would be the secondary surveillance radar interrogating your transponder that lights off the reply light. IFF is more of the military term,Identification Friend or Foe. SIF, Selective Identification Feature is the Civilian term. But Military Radars interrogate the Civilian modes also. Or something like that. There are folk here who will probably go into more details about all the Modes.
 
EvilEagle said:
You can always call any of the coastline approach freq's and ask them about the status of the W-areas. They'll know if it's active.
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I just had a phone brief less than hour before & it was NEG. I was out of range of both MOB & GPT APC at 1500' & 40 + miles out. Check the US Gulf Coast chart. I was with company flight following. I wrote this up for our Safety Director. Who knew about the "Could go hot w/in 30 min" deal. That's not published.
 
luvflyin said:
But Military Radars interrogate the Civilian modes also.
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It my understanding that the kids in the Combat Information Centers of US warships have all that capability at hand. I'm told that they can even hack your phone in your pocket, but that's just a rumor. Look up "Aegis Cruiser"
 
luvflyin said:
Thought it was likely something offshore. Ships are going to have surveillance radar, Carriers most definitely so. There’s the find airplanes and see who they are stuff and there’s the lock on to that puppy and shoot it down stuff. It would be the secondary surveillance radar interrogating your transponder that lights off the reply light. IFF is more of the military term,Identification Friend or Foe. SIF, Selective Identification Feature is the Civilian term. But Military Radars interrogate the Civilian modes also. Or something like that. There are folk here who will probably go into more details about all the Modes.
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But like Evil and I said, the Mode 4 reply light has nothing to do with getting locked up. The Radar Warning Receiver is what provides that. Two separate systems on two separate freqs.

It’s easily Googled but military Mode 1 and 2 are non encrypted modes. Mode 1 is only two digits max number is also 7 just like a 4096. It’s selectable and is adjusted by time based in the Air Tasking Order (ATO). Generally we’d forget to update it and no one cares. Mode 2 is like Mode 3A but varies by aircraft if it’s non adjustable or not. Some have a sleeve over it and can be adjusted. Some like in my pic above are not adjustable and are hardwired into the system. Skipping mode 3A onto 4, it’s an encrypted mode that takes an interrogation from a friendly military interrogator (not to be confused with fire control radar) and spits out a confirmation in the form of a green light. There might be transponders that show a hostile interrogation but I haven’t used those. A bad interrogation (fill dropped) might show as a caution but there’s no indication of who (friendly or foe) that caution goes with. Mode 5 is brand new and became the standard last year. Never used it myself, maybe Evil can describe.

RWR is a whole separate system that is a passive warning device that gets radar hits or “spikes” from different friendly or hostile radar sites. Old school RWR just puts a blip or line on the screen and an annoying tone in the helmet. Newer stuff will show the type (SA-3, SA-8, ZSU, etc) system on the display and a computerized voice to alert the pilot. Based on the various systems, crew action on contact might be to pop chaff, flares, or if using DIRCM (R2D2) you disable the missile with a laser.

Below you can see the black RWR antennas on the nose of the Black Hawk…disregard the completely unnecessary nose art. The second pic is an Afghan, correction now Taliban Black Hawk. Notice something missing? ;)
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qchen said:
It will effective against all aircrafts that operates within the airspaces prescribed in 14 CFR 91.225.
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Call me crazy, but if someone is launching surface to air missiles, 91.225 is on my list of things to ignore.
 
qchen said:
I understand that the FAA would never approve a flare dispenser STC, because the flares constitute a serious fire hazard to the ground.

However, should it be possible to get a STC for a chaff dispenser for my 152?
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What's the problem? The side windows in a 152 open, don't they?
 
Velocity173 said:
Your APX (Mode 4) shouldn’t alert you to that. Probably had a 72 like I have in the man cave (below). Steady green is normal working condition. If it flashes, you’ve been interrogated by the “good guys.”

Your RWR will alert you to a lock. Like in 2004 in Iraq I got (computerized voice) “Fixed Wing! Fixed wing! Lock!” :eek:

Edit: yeah like @EvilEagle said.

View attachment 99731
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Holy cow! That's a blast from the past. That one photo just took me back 30 years!
 
jsstevens said:
Yes, I'm sure it would though my original answer was based on just homing on the transmission, not decoding it for location. Terminal phase takes a lot of quick tracking especially considering the target will be doing whatever it can to evade...
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But if you used adsb signal to track initially they wouldn’t know they needed to evade. Lol
 
Salty said:
But if you used adsb signal to track initially they wouldn’t know they needed to evade. Lol
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An AIM-9 missile modified with a stratux ADS-B receiver is my biggest nightmare.

The hostile aircraft do not need to enable any radar. Or have any radar at the first place. The pilot will open special version of foreflight on his iPad, and tap on the plane icon that represents your Cessna to fire the missile without even needing a LOS to the target. It will be impossible to evade since the IR guidance only kicks in at the very last seconds.

Such system will allow virtually all GA aircraft to carry and fire wi-fi and Bluetooth enabled missiles, provided that the STC is within the W&B limit. Shouldn’t that be a concern for you?
 
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Hang 4 said:
Not sure what the fuss is all about, I just hit the "Chaff Dispense" button on my transponder when ever my Garmin announces missile lock.
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"I'm gonna hit the brakes ... he'll fly right by!" - Maverick :D
 
qchen said:
An AIM-9 missile modified with a stratux ADS-B receiver is my biggest nightmare.

The hostile aircraft do not need to enable any radar. Or have any radar at the first place. The pilot will open special version of foreflight on his iPad, and tap on
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That’s the exact scenario that keeps me up at night. This ADS-B crap has gotten way out of hand.
 
Maxnr said:
It my understanding that the kids in the Combat Information Centers of US warships have all that capability at hand. I'm told that they can even hack your phone in your pocket, but that's just a rumor. Look up "Aegis Cruiser"
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They have every reason to be paranoid. In the Falklands War I think the Royal Navy lost like nine ships before the Argentines ran out of Exocets.
 
You guys are all crazy. It is well known that the best defense for such a threat is an AOPA membership.
 
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