ADS-B Out and Passive Radar Homing Missile

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qchen

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qchen
According to this research, an ADS-B out antenna is a significant source of radio emission. Does an installation of ADS-B out equipment significantly increase the threat of the aircraft being locked on by a modern fire-control radar?

It really concerns me.


9/4 Edit:

One of greatest threat ever to GA aircraft may be realized soon: AIM-9X modified with a Stratux ADS-B receiver.

stratux-aim9.png


A cost-effective $100 modification to the already deadly sidewinder missile. The hostile aircraft doesn't even need LOS to lock on to your Cessna. The Wi-Fi and Bluetooth connectivity also makes it ForeFlight compatible.

This is pure nightmare.
 
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If you have ADS-B out, you already have a mode C or S transponder transmitting. How would adding a second transmitter make a difference?
 
qchen said:
According to this research, an ADS-B out antenna is a significant source of radio emission. Does an installation of ADS-B out equipment significantly increase the threat of the aircraft being locked on by a modern fire-control radar?

It really concerns me.
Click to expand...

Why are you so concerned about this ?
 
Well if you’re in an area with the threat being that high, won’t matter if you’re emitting ADS-B or not. Fire control radar can easily lock on to a primary target. In that case, I hope you’re good at flying NOE.
 
While you're at it try flying in front of a pave paws antenna!
 
Maybe interesting, but flying my PA-17 into KPOU on Tuesday, they didn't seem to be able to see me on the radar on my 5 mile straight in final (their request).
After asking all the other planes if they could see me, they told everything else in the pattern to circle until I was on the ground.
I had the same thing happen flying into KDXR and KPOU in the J3.
Are little cloth planes invisible to modern radar?
Any tower guys watching who can shed light on this?
 
Shepherd said:
Maybe interesting, but flying my PA-17 into KPOU on Tuesday, they didn't seem to be able to see me on the radar on my 5 mile straight in final (their request).
After asking all the other planes if they could see me, they told everything else in the pattern to circle until I was on the ground.
I had the same thing happen flying into KDXR and KPOU in the J3.
Are little cloth planes invisible to modern radar?
Any tower guys watching who can shed light on this?
Click to expand...
Flying into ONZ (Grosse Ile Municipal) which is well inside DTW's (Detroit) 30nm mode C ring of death in my rag and tube homebuilt LSA with no transponder (at the time)... Approach did not have me on radar at 30 miles and about 1000ish AGL, but at 20 miles they did. So apparently we do not have a reliable Cloak of Invisibility.
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Shepherd said:
Maybe interesting, but flying my PA-17 into KPOU on Tuesday, they didn't seem to be able to see me on the radar on my 5 mile straight in final (their request).
After asking all the other planes if they could see me, they told everything else in the pattern to circle until I was on the ground.
I had the same thing happen flying into KDXR and KPOU in the J3.
Are little cloth planes invisible to modern radar?
Any tower guys watching who can shed light on this?
Click to expand...

Essentially, yes.

Radar works by emitting a pulse of energy and then recording the presence of that energy being reflected back to the antenna.

Small wood/not very reflective surfaces may not reflect back enought energy to be 'seen'.
 
Shepherd said:
Maybe interesting, but flying my PA-17 into KPOU on Tuesday, they didn't seem to be able to see me on the radar on my 5 mile straight in final (their request).
After asking all the other planes if they could see me, they told everything else in the pattern to circle until I was on the ground.
I had the same thing happen flying into KDXR and KPOU in the J3.
Are little cloth planes invisible to modern radar?
Any tower guys watching who can shed light on this?
Click to expand...

There’s probably 3 or 4 surveillance type radars out there. Each has different capability and personalized settings by the controller. Combine that with atmospheric effects, aircraft position from the antenna, aircraft angle, etc. A small fabric aircraft would be low observable but not invisible. If birds can show up or an F-22 / F-35 can be seen with a small metal reflector attached, they can see a cloth plane / ultralight with a metal engine.

My type aircraft (Velocity) was used to transport drugs across the Mexican border. It was almost invisible to border surveillance radar. That doesn’t mean ATC can’t get a primary on me though.
 
qchen said:
According to this research, an ADS-B out antenna is a significant source of radio emission. Does an installation of ADS-B out equipment significantly increase the threat of the aircraft being locked on by a modern fire-control radar?

It really concerns me.
Click to expand...

This just strikes me as odd. The OP joined POA four years ago, and THIS is his first post? Dude! You waited four years, and this is what you came up with?:dunno:
 
If you really were worried about being shot down, wouldn't you go into stealth mode and turn off the transponder and/or nav lights powering your ADS-B?
 
If you’re that worried I’d suggest you purchase a good RWR for your aircraft. You’d actually be one up on the Taliban because the aircraft they’ve inherited don’t even have it. ;)
 
Velocity173 said:
There’s probably 3 or 4 surveillance type radars out there. Each has different capability and personalized settings by the controller. Combine that with atmospheric effects, aircraft position from the antenna, aircraft angle, etc. A small fabric aircraft would be low observable but not invisible. If birds can show up or an F-22 / F-35 can be seen with a small metal reflector attached, they can see a cloth plane / ultralight with a metal engine.

My type aircraft (Velocity) was used to transport drugs across the Mexican border. It was almost invisible to border surveillance radar. That doesn’t mean ATC can’t get a primary on me though.
Click to expand...

Lol wut?

the return is either above the noise floor or it is not

Aluminum foil birds and F 22 what? Please stop randomly googling things.

we’re talking a tower radar in a NAS that’s using 1970s technology
 
qchen said:
According to this research, an ADS-B out antenna is a significant source of radio emission. Does an installation of ADS-B out equipment significantly increase the threat of the aircraft being locked on by a modern fire-control radar?

It really concerns me.
Click to expand...
ADSB or a transponder would make no difference in the ability of a military fire control radar or other weapon system to target you. In fact on the ship we had multiple ways to knock down low slow flyer threats. An SM2 guided by the SPY-1 (search/FC radar) with either CAW (command all the way) or illumination by one of the SPG-62s (fire control radar) for terminal homing, the 5" gun with a solution provided by either SPY or the OSS (optical gun director), or the CIWS if you got in nice and close.

Are you maybe talking about a radiation homing missile like the HARM? I doubt ADSB or a transponder puts out enough emissions to be a juicy target to something like that but I have no experience with that so maybe someone else could shed light on that.
 
Shepherd said:
Maybe interesting, but flying my PA-17 into KPOU on Tuesday, they didn't seem to be able to see me on the radar
Click to expand...
Where does POU get its radar feed from? NYC, I'd guess, and that's a ways away.

On the rare occasions I talk to ATC in my Hatz, they don't seem to be able to see me, either.
 
Shepherd said:
Maybe interesting, but flying my PA-17 into KPOU on Tuesday, they didn't seem to be able to see me on the radar on my 5 mile straight in final (their request).
After asking all the other planes if they could see me, they told everything else in the pattern to circle until I was on the ground.
I had the same thing happen flying into KDXR and KPOU in the J3.
Are little cloth planes invisible to modern radar?
Any tower guys watching who can shed light on this?
Click to expand...
No, they aren’t invisible. The targets tend to be a little weaker. Engines are metal which helps. You have a wood propellor, that doesn’t help. I don’t remember a time when I couldn’t get a hit on a rag wing when while getting them on other planes in the vicinity. That was years ago, maybe newer Primary Radars aren’t quite as good. Seeing as how we live in pretty much a Secondary Radar world nowadays.
 
pfarber said:
Lol wut?

the return is either above the noise floor or it is not

Aluminum foil birds and F 22 what? Please stop randomly googling things.

we’re talking a tower radar in a NAS that’s using 1970s technology
Click to expand...
He didn’t say aluminum birds. He said birds. They can show on Radar. Flocks of big ones can give a pretty fair target. Note the ‘radar-observed’ below in this from the Controllers Handbook.


2−1−23. BIRD ACTIVITY INFORMATION
a. Issue advisory information on pilot-reported, tower-observed, or radar-observed and pilot-verified bird activity. Include position, species or size of birds, if known, course of flight, and altitude. Do this for at least 15 minutes after receipt of such information from pilots or from adjacent facilities unless visual observation or subsequent reports reveal the activity is no longer a factor.
EXAMPLE−
“Flock of geese, one o’clock, seven miles, northbound, last reported at four thousand.”
“Flock of small birds, southbound along Mohawk River, last reported at three thousand.”
“Numerous flocks of ducks, vicinity Lake Winnebago, altitude unknown.”
 
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PaulS said:
Flares and chaff are all we have, use them wisely.
Click to expand...

I understand that the FAA would never approve a flare dispenser STC, because the flares constitute a serious fire hazard to the ground.

However, should it be possible to get a STC for a chaff dispenser for my 152?
 
If you're using ADS-B they'll just use FlightAware and figure out who you are but if you turn it off and start tossing rolls of tin foil out the window you'll be perceived as a threat and they'll shoot you down so, be careful of advice you get on POA.
 
Lindberg said:
How about a GPS guided missile that just tracks the adsb signal?
Click to expand...
The GPS position report is only broadcasted once a second. Unless the missile has a terminal guidance system/or equipped with nuclear warhead, this scenario is very unlikely.
 
Shepherd said:
Maybe interesting, but flying my PA-17 into KPOU on Tuesday, they didn't seem to be able to see me on the radar on my 5 mile straight in final (their request).
After asking all the other planes if they could see me, they told everything else in the pattern to circle until I was on the ground.
I had the same thing happen flying into KDXR and KPOU in the J3.
Are little cloth planes invisible to modern radar?
Any tower guys watching who can shed light on this?
Click to expand...

Not a tower guy, but worked with radars.

The "little cloth planes" have less primary radar return (skin paint), but your Mode 3/C transponder (or Mode S) should be visible. In fact, ATC really just needs the beacon radar (aka Secondary radar) and uses the skin paint to "reinforce" the beacon plot. However, there could be something like your wheels that block the direct path to the ground radar. My cherokee 140 would occasionally "disappear" according to ATC and I would just tell them to let me turn a little to unblock the antenna.

Another problem could be a weak transponder signal return due to age, crud on the antenna, or whatever. You might want to check to make sure your transponder is within spec.
 
How effective would a missile guidance system be that simply uses the adsb out data to track a target?
 
Salty said:
How effective would a missile guidance system be that simply uses the adsb out data to track a target?
Click to expand...

It will effective against all aircrafts that operates within the airspaces prescribed in 14 CFR 91.225.
 
I figure my risk of being shot down will remain low as long as I continue to fly planes that are worth but a fraction of the cost of a single anti-aircraft missile.
 
pfarber said:
Lol wut?

the return is either above the noise floor or it is not

Aluminum foil birds and F 22 what? Please stop randomly googling things.

we’re talking a tower radar in a NAS that’s using 1970s technology
Click to expand...

lol! Didn’t Google anything but perhaps you should. I did ATC for a 8 years and have a brother who did it for 20. I’m well aware of the limitations of radar.

Radar depictions aren’t universal and depending on type, you may or may not see a target. Analog radar, digital radar, PAR. What’s the gain set at? Is MTI on? CP on? Is the target getting blocked by terrain or heavy rain? Are they in a turn? A whole slew of factors are involved in whether or not a small fabric aircraft would show up.

As far as birds. You do realize that ATC radar can pick up birds right? It’s even in the controller’s manual. At my brother’s facility, they’re actually able to use the newer equipment (STARS) and tag up a primary. And yes, they’d label it as “birds.”

It’s also common knowledge (perhaps not you) that low observable fighter aircraft use radar reflectors (RCS enhancers) so ATC can see a primary on their scope. Heck, I’ve seen the reflectors used at the end of a runway for PAR / ASR alignment and they’re pretty small.

The whole thing is a moot point anyway. The OP was referring to fire control radar and not ATC radar. Two completely different things.
 
qchen said:
I understand that the FAA would never approve a flare dispenser STC, because the flares constitute a serious fire hazard to the ground.

However, should it be possible to get a STC for a chaff dispenser for my 152?
Click to expand...
Got a friend with a very low serial number Bonanza. It has a chute, for use with the WWII-style flare gun. Could you use that for justification for an STC?

Ron "Panache, not flare" Wanttaja
 
GaryM said:
I figure my risk of being shot down will remain low as long as I continue to fly planes that are worth but a fraction of the cost of a single anti-aircraft missile.
Click to expand...
It's not the price of your plane that's being compared against the cost of the missile, it's the price of your intended target.
 
GaryM said:
I figure my risk of being shot down will remain low as long as I continue to fly planes that are worth but a fraction of the cost of a single anti-aircraft missile.
Click to expand...
You underestimate the governments capability to waste money....
 
For what its worth. You can tell when an AA fire control radar has you "locked up" because your transponder reply light is steady on. Ask me how I know.
 
Maxnr said:
For what its worth. You can tell when an AA fire control radar has you "locked up" because your transponder reply light is steady on. Ask me how I know.
Click to expand...
Ok. How do you know? Did the locker on tell you? Or did you just assume because you were out of ATC Radar coverage? There coulda been something other than a fire control radar interrogating you maybe.
 
qchen said:
I understand that the FAA would never approve a flare dispenser STC, because the flares constitute a serious fire hazard to the ground.
Click to expand...

I have flown several C-207s in Alaska that used to have flare dispensers that dropped parachute flares.

I will assume the dispenser was removed so more revenue could be loaded in the plane, or to stop the pilots from playing around...
 
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