ADS-B hidden gems?

[dustinwoodhouse]

Those of you who are waiting till the deadline to install ADS-B, do you have any insight on low-cost, feature rich gems emerging on the market?

 

[Morgan3820]

Uh, the cheapest is an install it yourself gdl-82

 

[Skates97]

The Skybeacon is certified now. I think it is probably the most inexpensive and easiest to install. They are still working on certification for their tail beacon.

https://uavionix.com/products/skybeacon/

 

[James331]

I’d be looking for random output when set to 1200, major security/safety requirement for me

 

[GLMS_NC]

You guys waiting; I struggle to understand the logic. Seeing traffic (and sharing my position) and weather is huge and can't imagine flying without it. Is not perfect but pretty darn good. Has saved my bacon.

So I ask, is it really worth trying to save $1,000? What is your life worth? Friends with you, others, your family....worth way more than $1000 to me. I just don't get it.

 

[Skates97]

You guys waiting; I struggle to understand the logic. Seeing traffic (and sharing my position) and weather is huge and can't imagine flying without it. Is not perfect but pretty darn good. Has saved my bacon.

So I ask, is it really worth trying to save $1,000? What is your life worth? Friends with you, others, your family....worth way more than $1000 to me. I just don't get it.

Just because someone doesn't have ADS-B out does not mean they are flying blind through the sky putting themselves and others at risk... I have had traffic and weather on my tablet for a couple years courtesy of a Stratux that I built, it works very well. When I am flying cross country I am always on Flight Following so if I am in the air I am seeing traffic and weather as well as sharing my position with ATC.

 

[MBDiagMan]

The GDL82 seems to be a good solution if all you are looking for is ADS-B out compliance. As skates said, a stratux and Foreflight or something similar can solve the IN problem.

For those with a more modern transponder like a Garmin 327 or something with buttons and LCD, the GDL 82 and a WAAS antenna would be a solution in the $2000 range according to an ad on the back of the latest Trade-a-plane.

 

[GLMS_NC]

Just because someone doesn't have ADS-B out does not mean they are flying blind through the sky putting themselves and others at risk... I have had traffic and weather on my tablet for a couple years courtesy of a Stratux that I built, it works very well. When I am flying cross country I am always on Flight Following so if I am in the air I am seeing traffic and weather as well as sharing my position with ATC.

Did I say flying blind?

You guaranteed to get flight following 100% of the time? Nope. It's resource dependent. IFR gets you the 100%. U fly IFR?

You're flying and relying 100% on what your ads-b in tells you? And you trust your tablet to work 100% of the time? Wow.

You plan to meet the 2020 mandate? If so, why are you continuing to wait to upgrade?

For VFR flying in uncongested airspace what you have is likely ok. In busy airspace and/or in the soup I will never rely on a tablet. Mine has let me down more than once (overheat, reset, efb app crash, etc.).

 

[n9144p]

While the intent of the op's question is probably low cost, I found one very valuable "gem" with Garmin's GTX-345. The countdown timer gives an audible voice warning when it reaches zero - which is great with planes like mine that have 4 fuel tanks and require switching often. The audible voice has traffic alerts that are very close also.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Did I say flying blind?

You guaranteed to get flight following 100% of the time? Nope. It's resource dependent. IFR gets you the 100%. U fly IFR?

You're flying and relying 100% on what your ads-b in tells you? And you trust your tablet to work 100% of the time? Wow.

You plan to meet the 2020 mandate? If so, why are you continuing to wait to upgrade?

For VFR flying in uncongested airspace what you have is likely ok. In busy airspace and/or in the soup I will never rely on a tablet. Mine has let me down more than once (overheat, reset, efb app crash, etc.).

You did not use the words “flying blind,” but that’s what came to my mind as it did to skates. That said, I hope you realize that not everyone has ADS-B OUT, now or even in 2020 outside of Bravo or Charlie. That means that there are plenty of planes out there that won’t show up on your IN. Please keep using all means at your disposal to avoid traffic.

 

[eman1200]

You guys waiting; I struggle to understand the logic. Seeing traffic (and sharing my position) and weather is huge and can't imagine flying without it. Is not perfect but pretty darn good. Has saved my bacon.

So I ask, is it really worth trying to save $1,000? What is your life worth? Friends with you, others, your family....worth way more than $1000 to me. I just don't get it.

I'm just gonna quote this so it's on here at least twice. should be repeated 1 meeeelion times.

 

[MBDiagMan]

While the intent of the op's question is probably low cost, I found one very valuable "gem" with Garmin's GTX-345. The countdown timer gives an audible voice warning when it reaches zero - which is great with planes like mine that have 4 fuel tanks and require switching often. The audible voice has traffic alerts that are very close also.

I too have a 345, but have only with it a few times. I am not familiar with the countdown timer you speak of. Could you please expand on that. Do you mean like when you are using the timer to do an IFR turn?

By the way, the savings of an inexpensive OUT solution versus the 345 is much more than $1000. My 345 installed cost more than $6,000. The GDL82 or Skybeacon solutions are around $2000. By my math that is something like a $4000 delta. (Whoops! It was a different poster that suggested a $1000 delta. Sorry!)

There are plenty of advantages to the 345 as opposed to simply putting in the least expensive solution for compliance. In my Mooney I can justify it given the nature of my flying in it and the presence of the 430W for displaying traffic and weather. My Cessna 140, however, is a different kettle of fish. I fly it occasionally under the Bravo veil VFR to check on my elderly Mom. I just want compliance and the GDL 82 or the Skybeacon will probably be the solution supplemented with Foreflight and Stratux.

 

[eman1200]

I too have a 345, but have only with it a few times. I am not familiar with the countdown timer you speak of. Could you please expand on that.

pretty easy. hit the function key a coupl'a times to get to the timers. then scroll up or down to see the diff options u have. easy peasy.

 

[MBDiagMan]

I can find the countdown timer. I was just not familiar with the audible feature he talked about. I think he is saying that when the time ends you get an audible message signaling to end your turn.

Thanks for the response.

 

[brcase]

You guys waiting; I struggle to understand the logic. Seeing traffic (and sharing my position) and weather is huge and can't imagine flying without it. Is not perfect but pretty darn good. Has saved my bacon.

So I ask, is it really worth trying to save $1,000? What is your life worth? Friends with you, others, your family....worth way more than $1000 to me. I just don't get it.

This is one of my pet peeves, people saying what is your life worth , a $1000?
It is a risk vs reward vs resources available calculation.
A $1000 for a Cirrus owner is not the same as a $1000 for C-150 owner. There were a few years where my entire flying budget was under $1500 and I still managed to log 50+ hours per year.

If I could install ADS-B out for the same percentage of my aircraft value as the percentage it costs the new Cirrus owner I would have installed it a long time ago. I have yet have one of those people saying that is only X dollars for Y peice of safety equipment to offer to buy it for me. After All for ADS-B out they are the ones that are going benefit to be able to see me. So I guess maybe they don’t really think it is that valueable. It is always easy to spend other peoples money.

Brian

 

[denverpilot]

When someone is shoving something up your butt, “hidden gem” is probably not what you want to use as a phrase for what you’re hoping for. LOL

 

[Skates97]

Did I say flying blind?

Not in those specific words but the implication was there.

You guaranteed to get flight following 100% of the time? Nope. It's resource dependent. IFR gets you the 100%. U fly IFR?

Yes it is "resource dependent" however I have never been denied flight following in the past 250 hours of flight (and yes, that is in busy areas, not the middle of nowhere). I have had once where I was unable to get the controller to answer me (a Saturday morning with a big traffic push) but within about 10 miles I was in another controller's area, switched to their frequency and had my squawk code.

You're flying and relying 100% on what your ads-b in tells you? And you trust your tablet to work 100% of the time? Wow.

Ummm.... where exactly did I say I rely 100% on what my ADS-B in tells me? Your previous post made it sound as if the only way to have traffic and weather available was to have ADS-B out. That is not true and I was merely pointing out that even without ADS-B out it is possible to have ADS-B in.

You plan to meet the 2020 mandate? If so, why are you continuing to wait to upgrade?

Yes, I will meet the 2020 mandate. Why wait longer? To see what other options come available on the market. Just in the past month uAvionix received certification for their skyBeacon $1,849 and they are expecting certification for their tailBeacon $1,999 very soon, both of which carry very little in the way of an install cost.

For VFR flying in uncongested airspace what you have is likely ok. In busy airspace and/or in the soup I will never rely on a tablet. Mine has let me down more than once (overheat, reset, efb app crash, etc.).

Well thank goodness I don't fly in busy airspace as my current setup doesn't meet your recommendations... I am based out of an airport in Southern California in the LA Basin and do a lot of my flying here. I can't imagine what would have happened to me in the last couple of years flying without ADS-B out if I was actually flying in congested/busy airspace.

Let's see, just yesterday I enjoyed a short 150 mile cross country through some of LA's uncongested airspace. I returned to my lonely little uncontrolled airport and as I approached from the west I listened to successive radio calls from two planes taking off and departing to the west. I continued to make my position calls, saw both of them (with my eyes) and let them know I had them in sight as they passed above and to my left. There were two more planes on the frequency working the pattern and a third on the VOR practice approach from the east. As I approached the downwind I looked for the one that had just said he was taking off and saw him rolling down the runway, I saw the one who said he was on the downwind, and saw the student pilot that had been on the VOR approach make his turn to the downwind a little bit in front of me. He was much slower than I was (150 vs my Mooney) so I dropped my gear and put in full flaps to slow down more and fit in. When I saw him I called out that I had him in sight and was #3 behind him and the guy that just took off said he saw me and would be #4. Miraculously, without ADS-B out, there was no fireball with airplane parts falling from the sky...

 

[James331]

You guys waiting; I struggle to understand the logic. Seeing traffic (and sharing my position) and weather is huge and can't imagine flying without it. Is not perfect but pretty darn good. Has saved my bacon.

So I ask, is it really worth trying to save $1,000? What is your life worth? Friends with you, others, your family....worth way more than $1000 to me. I just don't get it.

I think you under estimate eyes outside.

Also being a early adopter often does not work well with hindsight

 

[flyer770]

It’s a supplemental tool for eyes out, not a replacement for. And the tech is probably about as good as it’s going to get now. Anything else released between now and 2020 will be an incremental improvement.

 

[Ravioli]

Anyone know where to find the GDL-82 WITHOUT internal gps? Part number 011-03946-0.

I've got 430W for position source and WILL NOT add another antenna. So the GDL-82 is a solid choice for me. I guess I could buy the standard one and wire it to the 430, but since they have the part number, why not? (Could be like gluten free, though. No GPS we charge you extra to NOT put it in)

Meanwhile, @James331 - it seems the GDL-82 has anonymous when squawking VFR. (cursory review of the manual)

 

[Skibum44]

Adsb in/out is a great tool for traffic awareness. Not to be a replacement for eyes outside, but a piece of mind when you know where to look for the traffic.
I live in bush Alaska and a fair amount of the planes in my area have implemented adsb. Flying with it for a half a year now... it makes me wonder how many to close for comfort or close calls that have gone unnoticed in the past. It is amazing how hard it is sometimes to locate the traffic, even though you know they are there. Before adsb I would of never known about some recent traffic that was a little to close for comfort. It is nice when flying into the busy Anchorage area where not just Adsb traffic is visible. I could see traditional transponder traffic too. I know when flying at home I am not getting the whole picture, due to the fact that not everyone is equipped with “out”. I know there are people watching but not giving there position (in equipped), so for my safety I want those guys to be able to see my out equipped plane.
I have always hated mandates, but after using adsb to expand situational awareness I am happy that tool is there when flying.

 

[Raymo]

Sandia has an all-in-one UAT (out) transponder/ADS-B in/out box. Retails for $3200.

 

[n9144p]

I can find the countdown timer. I was just not familiar with the audible feature he talked about. I think he is saying that when the time ends you get an audible message signaling to end your turn.

Thanks for the response.

the Garmin 345 gives an audible verbal alarm when you are using the timer in countdown mode. I think it's "Coundown expired" or something close to that. It also give a traffic warning audibly like "traffic 11:00 high 1 mile". I'm not sure how it decides to executes this warning, but it seems to take place about 20 seconds before a close encounter is possible. If you are trailing someone, it's not likely to sound. If they are heading toward you it does.

 

[Glenn D]

I do not have unlimited funds to support my flying and airplane,,,, so I use a GDL-39 for ADS-B in on a tablet,.... and was considering the GDL-82 for out but the TailBeacon looks to be the better option right now... cost wise and ease of installation... no holes to drill in the top of the fuselage. that "GEM" really is what I need to support MY flying... I will be flying in class B &C areas, so need to have the capability, but to me, IFR is I following roads... so staying away from both gray and granite clouds is important.

 

[Jack C-137]

Anyone know where to find the GDL-82 WITHOUT internal gps? Part number 011-03946-0.

I've got 430W for position source and WILL NOT add another antenna. So the GDL-82 is a solid choice for me. I guess I could buy the standard one and wire it to the 430, but since they have the part number, why not? (Could be like gluten free, though. No GPS we charge you extra to NOT put it in)

Meanwhile, @James331 - it seems the GDL-82 has anonymous when squawking VFR. (cursory review of the manual)

Can a garmin unit use some form of multiplexer so that you could use the 430Ws antenna for a GPS equipped GDL-82? Is that even a thing in GA avionics?

 

[steingar]

The tail beacon guys are having their sixes sued by Garmin, so I don't know just how solid an option that's going to be. My guess is not very, and there isn't anything else at that price point out there. 2020 is looming, and if you have to have someone install something it could get very, very tight.

Like I've said, after January 1 2020 I think there are going to be a lot of folks frozen out of controlled airspace. I'm just glad I'm not going to be one of them.

 

[chemgeek]

There are still a lot of ADS-B options the $4k-$6k range installed, depending on features you want and what you had in the panel already. The real crunch will be finding an installer who is not backlogged. My install is getting done now (NGT-9000).

It's still a competitive and sometimes confusing landscape of options, depending on whether you want/need IN/OUT, have/don't have a WAAS source, want/don't want a redundant WAAS source, and what cockpit devices you want the ADS-B unit to communicate with (and bluetooth/wifi). If you find the right installer, you can get the NGT-9000 with all the doodads and options installed for just over $6k. Of course once you do that, other things might crop up, like the plastic interior parts disintegrating when removed to run the coax. (Fortunately, I had purchased all the plastic pieces years ago when they were relatively cheap and haven't had time to install them. They are $200 a pop for each piece now! That's a better return than the stock market.)

 

[1RTK1]

There are still a lot of ADS-B options the $4k-$6k range installed, depending on features you want and what you had in the panel already. The real crunch will be finding an installer who is not backlogged. My install is getting done now (NGT-9000).

It's still a competitive and sometimes confusing landscape of options, depending on whether you want/need IN/OUT, have/don't have a WAAS source, want/don't want a redundant WAAS source, and what cockpit devices you want the ADS-B unit to communicate with (and bluetooth/wifi). If you find the right installer, you can get the NGT-9000 with all the doodads and options installed for just over $6k. Of course once you do that, other things might crop up, like the plastic interior parts disintegrating when removed to run the coax. (Fortunately, I had purchased all the plastic pieces years ago when they were relatively cheap and haven't had time to install them. They are $200 a pop for each piece now! That's a better return than the stock market.)

Concerning mounting your GPS antenna, I have seen them done on the glare shield that cuts instillation cost mucho.

 

[Ravioli]

Can a garmin unit use some form of multiplexer so that you could use the 430Ws antenna for a GPS equipped GDL-82? Is that even a thing in GA avionics?

The diagram in the install shows that the 430W can be cabled to the 82 as a position source, instead of another antenna.

 

[GLMS_NC]

Skates97,

I read you post then spent the better part of two weeks flying. I don't fly on the west coast; I primarily fly the east coast from CT down to FL. The busy northeast corridor (which even the most experienced have challenges with, through VA, NC, and SC which is the busiest military airspace in the country, then down to FLL, which we all know is busy training airspace. Here'a an example where the Pro's were challenged on a recent flight in the busy NYC area, and this was IFR flying.

Forget plan A....it's gone and what's next?

Back to my flying...I take off and decide I'll do what you do - fly VFR and pick-up flight following. Rely on them to keep an eye on my trip. Works great. Land at airport 1 and then take off for airport 2. Pick up flight following again with ATC1 on departure and then change sectors and check in with ATC2. ATC2 says "unable to provide flight following; squawk 1200 and maintain VFR". Whoa. Where did this come from? ATC1 was watching me and gave me a squawk. Not what I expected. Now what? Who's keeping an eye on me? You state you always get flight following - I don't, and this is another example. To paint a picture one will always get this service is wrong for the folks here looking to learn. And that is my point. You need a plan A AND a plan B, and don't launch without one. Relying on someone else to watch you 100% when it's optional for them is risky business IMHO. Keeping your head in the cockpit to watch and iPad which has its own issues to see traffic vs looking outside? Hmm....

You mentioned your "recent 250 hours". Don't matter to me how many hours you have. That means nothing in my book. Doesn't matter how many hours you have; what matters is how disciplined you are. Over 25,000 of pilot experience didn't help these guys.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/2...s_in_each_layer_of_defense__.html?arc404=true

These guys may have been excellent aviators in terms of flying, but they weren't disciplined. They made bad decisions, and as a result, killed a group of people. And this is just one example where thousands of hours flying didn't save someone. Were they disciplined to ignore a simple flight check on the prior 100+ flights?

About ADS-B, you see who Garmin is suing? https://insight.rpxcorp.com/litigation_documents/12956844 You can read their response here https://uavionix.com/news/uavionix-statement-on-garmin-lawsuit/ . Would I wait for all this to get sorted out? Not me. Is it a good solution - yes it is. Will it survive the legal environment? The courts will decide.

iPads - yours has never overheated, EFB app crash, or unit reset itself? I invite you to come to FL to fly in the summer temps and sun. And watch the ADS-B receiver on the glareshield too...hope it has a fan in it. And that you can READ the iPad in the glare and keep everything powered as they need juice.

About costs, flying isn't cheap. Licensing, recurrent training, maintenance/annuals, insurance, hangar rent, AD compliance, charts, etc. all cost. If $1,000 is that much of a deal, there are bigger considerations here. People who cut costs are playing a dangerous game. If you are strapped financially, go get a partner.

I fly IFR 95% of the time, even on CAVU days for on reason, and that is when I accept a clearance, ATC has to watch me. A clearance is a contract. I'm not dependent on resource load and hope I will get flight following. My plan A is the the panel with back-up on the EFB. Plan B is the EFB/IPad dumps and I have a full panel. And with an IFR clearance, I can keep a solid look out front and not have my chin to my chest looking an at iPad.

 

[DaleB]

I think you under estimate eyes outside.

Also being a early adopter often does not work well with hindsight

No joke... I was --> <-- that close to ordering a Navworx box. Thank God for being a cheapskate and deciding to wait.