I agree, but this guys case is not the hill I would choose to die on.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Alcoholics can be fine through a lengthy recovery, then fall off the wagon and do really stupid stuff. Nobody can sort that out hence what we have now.
BladeSlap
Ejection Handle Pulled
Ok
I just don’t think the stab victim is a alcoholic.
Based on what the doctor said to me here, that if you’re not about to fall over at 0.08, compared to my experience with one of the blow machines, I don’t think many he consider alcoholics are probably alcoholics ether, I think most of the world would be alcoholics based on that test.
Daleandee
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Went to the doc and complained that I had broken my arm in three places. Doc suggested that I stay out of them places.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I have never drank a whole six pack of anything at a sitting ever. But if I did, yeah I'd be out of it. I drank three beers in the space of as many hours a couple weeks ago and I was really soused. Thank goodness it was at my neighbors.
Kenny Phillips
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Over what period of time?
ThatOtherGuy
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All this back and forth about how many beers can balance on the head of a pin is pointless.
It's real simple. The FAA has defined "substance abuse" and "substance dependence" in the FARs. It's not the same definition used by the general medical community. "Normal" doctors use the DSM-IV or DSM-V. In the DSM-V the terms "substance dependent" and "substance abuse" aren't even used.
It's possible to not meet the DSM-V conditions for "Alcohol Use Disorder" or the DSM-IV conditions for "alcohol abuse"/"alcohol dependence" but sill found to be "substance dependent"/"substance abuse" per the FAR criteria.
This is what gets pilots in trouble with alcohol. They wrongly think the only way to get in trouble with booze is through a DUI and NDR check. They fail to realize that once the ink dried on that medical certificate they were playing by the FAA's rules with regard to alcohol. Those rules are not the same as what the rest of the world uses. If medical documentation confirming any of the FAR criteria for "substance abuse"/"substance dependence" makes it front of the FAA then you have an alcohol problem. It doesn't matter what the initiating event was, what matters is that it happened, it's documented, and it's alcohol related.
To this point...Yes, being intoxicated with a .163 BAC as a passenger in an Uber involved in an accident would be a problem if the FAA saw the labs. There's no stipulation in the FARs that says "Tolerance unless you're being responsible with your transportation choices". Tolerance is tolerance.
It's real simple. The FAA has defined "substance abuse" and "substance dependence" in the FARs. It's not the same definition used by the general medical community. "Normal" doctors use the DSM-IV or DSM-V. In the DSM-V the terms "substance dependent" and "substance abuse" aren't even used.
It's possible to not meet the DSM-V conditions for "Alcohol Use Disorder" or the DSM-IV conditions for "alcohol abuse"/"alcohol dependence" but sill found to be "substance dependent"/"substance abuse" per the FAR criteria.
This is what gets pilots in trouble with alcohol. They wrongly think the only way to get in trouble with booze is through a DUI and NDR check. They fail to realize that once the ink dried on that medical certificate they were playing by the FAA's rules with regard to alcohol. Those rules are not the same as what the rest of the world uses. If medical documentation confirming any of the FAR criteria for "substance abuse"/"substance dependence" makes it front of the FAA then you have an alcohol problem. It doesn't matter what the initiating event was, what matters is that it happened, it's documented, and it's alcohol related.
To this point...Yes, being intoxicated with a .163 BAC as a passenger in an Uber involved in an accident would be a problem if the FAA saw the labs. There's no stipulation in the FARs that says "Tolerance unless you're being responsible with your transportation choices". Tolerance is tolerance.
BladeSlap
Ejection Handle Pulled
Have you ever told a doctor about this? Diabetic?
Kenny Phillips
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Or tired.
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Velocity173
Where’s the standard definition of a BAC level of .15 of showing tolerance? I’m reading a cutoff of. 20 with .15 possibly being increased tolerance but with supporting documentation. Also, who’s to say that the OP was functional? Conscious doesn’t necessarily mean functional.
bflynn
Final Approach
Functional is not an endorsement. Being at .16 and still being able to function effectively is indicative of built up tolerance. You only get there by having done it many, many times before.
BladeSlap
Ejection Handle Pulled
That is a six pack for most people, or a couple cocktails, I hardly drink and I can “function” after a six pack, not as well as in my normal sober state obviously, but that describes most healthy humans.
Do you have a medical study that shows anyone who can drink a six pack and not go into a coma or die has some type of problem? I think the inverse is true, if you can’t drink a couple cocktails without falling all over yourself you probably have some under lining medical issue.
bflynn
Final Approach
Medical study? I have a government medical agency that says so. Given that is the context of the topic, I’d think that’s what is most important. How many drinks to a BAC is dependent on weight. How well you can function at a particular BAC is dependent on tolerance.
are you trying to make an argument that using alcohol to the point that you can be functional at higher and higher BACs is a good thing? I disagree because that indicates going past abuse and into dependence by the FAA’s definition.
are you trying to make an argument that using alcohol to the point that you can be functional at higher and higher BACs is a good thing? I disagree because that indicates going past abuse and into dependence by the FAA’s definition.
BladeSlap
Ejection Handle Pulled
Because I said so is not how science and medicine work, at least a few years back when I was in college.
The point is .16 is not a alarmingly high number if you do some simple research and math, it’s a number most anyone who has ever gone out to a bar with friends, or got a few cocktails at a company dinner has easily hit. It’s drunk, but if you are unable to function after 2 cocktails I think something medically might also be going on.
With how long it takes for the FAA to send out my plastic certificate, it would appear they are under staffed, I can only imagine the medical side is also under staffed, there are people out there with real medical problems who require their attention, going after anyone who had a normal evening at a bar with friends and made the mistake of getting stabbed by a crazy person, that’s not how I would like my FAA to use it’s limited resources
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RussS
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I see both sides on this topic. On one hand, I do not believe that getting to .16 means passed out drunk for everyone. And I don’t think it is a fair marker for tolerance “necessarily”. Like anything in the medical world, it would require supporting evidence of some kind. The FAA doesn’t play by the medical worlds rules though. All that being said…I do think being at .16 for someone who does not have tolerance would be REALLY drunk. Maybe not passed out or unable to stand (or attempt to drive), but DEFINITELY well beyond where a normal person would say “yep, I can drive a car.” So at the very least, if you don’t have tolerance, you have really poor decision making skills….and that’s a problem. Of course there is no science to my opinion, just opinion. I don’t drink at all anymore….but I can tell you that back when I did, there were a few times when I had a 6 pack over several hours during a bonfire. I wasn’t passing out….but I was NOT in any condition to drive either, and I knew it. I think “functional” has a different meaning to different people. We should really define that. As tough as the FAA is in some scenarios of the alcohol topic…mine included… I think they are equally lenient on others. For crying out loud you can blow .14 on a DUI, and still get issued in office if is your one and only! (Terms and conditions apply). Of course the safer bet is just to not drink at all. Costs a lot, makes you fat, bad for your health, ruins people.
Tarheelpilot
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That’s not necessarily true.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
The poster says however He’s had a prior alcohol offense. FAA know he continues to drnk and the second documented behavior was above 0.15.
This is about lifelong behavior and the prior described event tells that the behavior continues...through life....(2006). It’s not so much about getting mugged. It’s about continued immoderate use outside the home, in the face of adverse outcomes.....
This is about lifelong behavior and the prior described event tells that the behavior continues...through life....(2006). It’s not so much about getting mugged. It’s about continued immoderate use outside the home, in the face of adverse outcomes.....
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bflynn
Final Approach
I’m not arguing with you about what should or should not be. I’m just pointing out that what you’re saying is not in line with FAA policy. You seem to want to rail against them, but it’s not clear why. You aren’t going to change them. It’s their game, we play by their rules or we don’t play.
Someone who is drunk after two drinks could have a simple medical condition - having a light weight. A 100lb woman with two drinks in an hour is between .07 and .10 depending on which chart you believe. Men are only different in that we tend to weigh more.
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He might not have been functional. If he was, he wouldn’t have called an Uber. Tolerance would mean he could drive himself with little impairment.
BladeSlap
Ejection Handle Pulled
In this topic I think the numbers speak for them selves, a .16 in a social setting is quite normal, that’s a couple cocktails or roughly a six pack, being normal of the average person going out, I don’t see how it could be considered immoderate, normal drinking would better describe it, no?
In the face of adverse outcomes, he took a uber, he obviously didn’t know he was going to have a attempted murder, I think there is also mass agreement that horrible incident was well beyond his control.
The FAA can make up their own rules, but with how short staffed they are I wish they would focus on real medical conditions instead of re victimizing a person who just got stabbed by possibly taking his career away, I expect more from the faa.
Just starting out my career in aviation and joining this site to meet other pilots, I stumbled on this topic, it is troubling the direction things are heading.
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PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
It's not the direction things are heading, it's the reality we live in. What you consider a normal night out will put a world of hurt on your new aviation career should you get arrested or if you end up in an incident that could be discovered by the faa.
These rules sound draconian, and maybe they are, but the faa was more lenient in the past on alcohol. Unfortunately addicts who were given 2nd and 3rd chances screwed the pooch for every one else by f'ng up in serious ways on the job, hence what we have now.
As pilots most of us are here paying attention to things like this to learn from other's mistakes and not repeat them.
Understand that if you routinely go out and get intoxicated to these levels, you run a very high risk of getting caught up in trouble and ending up in a potentially career ending situation.
Arguing with it is futile, learn from other people's errors.
bflynn
Final Approach
.16 is not normal. That's when you start vomiting, crawling is easier than walking and you have blurred vision. You must attend some crazy parties if this is normal. At my house, I'm pouring you into a cab and sending you home.
The progression to the point that a person can walk and appear somewhat normal at .16 indicates they have tolerance. The FAA defines it as dependent on alcohol and a condition which is incompatible with being a crew member in any capacity. With abstinence, treatment and continued monitoring, it's possible to get back in the left seat.
It isn't heading that way, it's been that way for a long time.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I have told my doctor how much I drink and I am not at all diabetic. I am a vegetarian, and I try to stay thin. Normally I don't drink any more than 2 or 3 drinks, and I try to maintain it to a drink one hour at a time. Usually I only drink at home. I did drink at a party last weekend, and I had 3, since they were all homemade. Again, one hour per drink, and I didn't drive. the drinks were over a 4 hour span.
Moreover, since I'm now trying to lose some weight, I haven't drank every weekend. I drank at the party because of home brewed beer and wine. My one weakness, if its artisanal I have to try it. I will not drink until I lose the weight I want.
The other thing I do is I don't go out into dangerous environs alone at night. Were I in the OP's situation I'd have been surrounded by friends. Or I'd have held the "celebration" at a private residence and made certain everyone either had a bed for the evening or had a way home. I'd not have sent anyone out into a late night alone to find transportation.
I used to teach a 6pm night class. It made me acutely uncomfortable to send young women out in the darkness, so much so that I refuse to teach the class anymore. I now teach a night class, but it is on Zoom, so I'm not keeping anyone on campus after dark.
So says me the OP:
- Is lying though his teeth. I hate to accuse anyone of this, but his story doesn't match the numbers he's claiming. One or the other is wrong.
- The OP has crap friends. They let him get stabbed. He could have died.
- I hope to Odin I never fly in an aircraft with him at the yoke.
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If the OP could walk with no difficulty at .16, then sure, that’s tolerance. But the OP never stated that. If he had difficulties in maintaining balance then that would be a normal indicator of .15 or higher. I imagine that’s why he called the Uber. Because he wasn’t at a functioning level (tolerance) to drive but was physically impaired. Impaired enough to call it alcohol abuse? Not unless he chose to do something that was “physically hazardous.” By DSM standards (driving / operating machinery) he’d be in a condition of physically hazardous. But the OP wasn’t doing anything that would fit that definition of that.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
Blade Slap, a bit of unsolicited advise: you need to re-examine your "normal" lest you eveentually come under the eye of the agency. "Large amounts of Alcohol" to aviation is just like "not landing at 1.3 Vso". There is no reg. that you have to do that, however if you don't do that, you will eventually get really really punished.
Keithlewis1900
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How do you know it was late at night? What if it happened at 8pm?
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I get reports of all the crimes that happen in and around my area. The vast vast majority happen at night after the bars close. If the case is otherwise for the OP he can come and tell us all about it.
Keithlewis1900
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Great. Even then, time is irrelevant. Pretty sure you can get mugged/robbed anytime of day.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
You can get mugged or robbed at any time. Someone got shot nearby in broad daylight. However, that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of this stuff happens to folks out late at night. Moreover, in most of these incidents the robbers threaten force but don't use any. They get some cash and a phone and boogey.
Keithlewis1900
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Also, call me short sighted but I do not like how much oversight the FAA has into our every day life. If I want to drink every day to a .16 and run around my home naked, why do they care? As long as I'm not doing anything hazardous or it doesn't involve flying, it is none of their business.
On that point I agree with you. I believe you should not be punished for something you might do, but only for things you’ve actually done.
Lindberg
Final Approach
And yet, still, Medxpress and the medical exam do not require the self-immolation some here seem to be demanding.
ThatOtherGuy
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You made it their business when you applied for a medical and asked them to determine whether you meet the standards for said certificate. They don't care about your daily life. They care about whether you meet the medical standards and continue to do so throughout the life of the medical certificate.
You realize that heavy consistent drinking have physiological and psychological results that last long beyond the period of intoxication right?
Hell, so long as it's been 8 hrs since he drank and his BAC is <.04 he's technically legal. If you knew the pilot of the airliner you were about to board spent the last 6 days with a .16 BAC running around their house naked would you get on the plane? Would you want someone like that doing approaches and departures over your house?
.16 BAC is not "normal". Here are some of the common symptoms exhibited at .16 BAC:
Depression, nausea, disorientation, motor impairment, blurred vision, judgment more than "severely" impaired, vomiting (unless tolerant), loss of auditory information processing, slurred speech, increased reaction time, emotional instability, loss of consciousness.
These are just the things the chart lists for the .16 category, they don't even include all the things listed for the lower BAC levels.
Lindberg
Final Approach
The best kind of legal.
This is what's colloquially known as "being drunk."
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Velocity173
If that pilot showed up to work sober, who cares what they did (other than the FAA) in their time off.
Back in the day Chuck Yeager and the gang got blitzed at Pancho Barnes on the weekends. As long they show up on Monday ready for flight test, that’s all that matters. Heck, Bud Anderson named his plane (Old Crow) after a type of whisky. And while he’s probably a moderate drinker now, you can bet he and his buds had some .15 days…and the dudes lived to be 99.
Keithlewis1900
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After each sortie, my buddy's fighter unit has 'roll call'. You can bet some good bourbon and whiskey is brought out and shenanigans begin. Heck, Robin Olds, an absolute BA, was brought in during the Vietnam War to shake a few units up because of his debauchery.
Tarheelpilot
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The first time I ever consumed alcohol in my life I met the criteria for many of you to call me tolerant at a level that can only be achieved by frequent and heavy use of alcohol.
I have to throw the bs penalty flag on you guys. You have bought into the narrative and it’s a fallacy.
I have to throw the bs penalty flag on you guys. You have bought into the narrative and it’s a fallacy.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Who analyzed your blood to tell you the BAC was 0.16? The first time you drank you got drunk. So what? I throw the BS flag at you, since you know nothing, Tarheel pilot.
For me that's 8 beers in 2 hours. That's most certainly not "normal".