Admission To Hospital Question

F

Frankmarsh5

Guest
A few months ago I was at a bar with some friends. Long story short, I was involved in a unprovoked robbery and the individual stabbed me in the stomach. I was rushed to the ER, and survived with no complications. Now I was admitted to the hospital for 3 days. All of this I’m reporting on my next medical. Here is what I’m concerned about- I have a old DUI, 2006 that was reported. Single alcohol event. The FAA gave me a letter saying I’m eligible for a first class medical, but another alcohol event could cause denial etc etc. There’s a long list of hospital labs and buried they took an alcohol report, which registered 0.163. Yes, it’s high and I rarely drink anymore. It was a special occasion. With that being said, the alcohol did not cause the incident and I was simply walking to my Uber location to get home. Do I mention this on my next medical? If I did, could the FAA throw the book at me?
 
Frankmarsh5 said:
That is what I suspected, and the alcohol didn’t cause my hospitalization. Thanks.
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My guidance is to either wait for one of our esteemed AME's to respond, or send an email to them directly with the question

Your question is one that is just thorny enough to either be totally benign, or a live hand grenade.

To send a message to Dr. Bruce, use http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com/how-to-start.html

Unfortunately I don't have a direct contact vector available for Dr. Lou. But look for him in Pensacola and perhaps appropriate Google-fu finds a link.
 
AggieMike88 said:
My guidance is to either wait for one of our esteemed AME's to respond, or send an email to them directly with the question

Your question is one that is just thorny enough to either be totally benign, or a live hand grenade.

To send a message to Dr. Bruce, use http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com/how-to-start.html

Unfortunately I don't have a direct contact vector available for Dr. Lou. But look for him in Pensacola and perhaps appropriate Google-fu finds a link.
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And to be clear the letter said total abstinence is encouraged etc. I wasn’t formally forbidden from consuming alcohol and I’ve remained responsible.
 
I have seen a VERY similar event be deemed an alcohol event. My advice is a lawyer.

There’s nothing medical about how it’s going to be viewed, it’s administrative. What you have to disclose is administrative.

There’s no privacy or confidentiality with an AME.
 
Tools said:
I have seen a VERY similar event be deemed an alcohol event. My advice is a lawyer.

There’s nothing medical about how it’s going to be viewed, it’s administrative. What you have to disclose is administrative.

There’s no privacy or confidentiality with an AME.
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I couldn’t find where getting stabbed and robbed an administrative event…
 
I'm not an AME. But I have a strong hunch that if you report to your AME you were hospitalized because of stab wounds incurred during a robbery, the question of your BAC won't come up. He'll want to know that you're fully recovered without any physical limitations. That's just my SWAG.

I'm assuming here that you didn't lose consciousness or anything like that, which might call for producing all those medical records.
 
Frankmarsh5 said:
And to be clear the letter said total abstinence is encouraged etc. I wasn’t formally forbidden from consuming alcohol and I’ve remained responsible.
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But, by your admission above, you were documented with a 0.163.

The FAA gets mighty grumpy with BAC’s that high. Look at past threads why they get grumpy.

Rough road possible ahead. And we here always suggest “know for certain you pass before you go”.

Never ever just spin the wheel and take a chance.
 
Frankmarsh5 said:
I couldn’t find where getting stabbed and robbed an administrative event…
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It isn’t. That’s in the criminal arena.

But the FAA doesn’t hold court in the criminal arena. They are administrative. And they hold the keys to the kingdoms and sandbox that is flying in the USA. They set the rules. We must play by them or be denied access.

We are trying to provide straight advice based on many of us seeing many many threads like this and listening to what our esteemed AME’s in residence, Dr. Bruce and Dr. Lou have said in response.

That you are deflecting and defending because you’re not being told what you desire to hear makes me think you’re headed toward at best being stuck into an expensive medical penalty box, and at worst, medical revoked.

Paraphrasing Dr. Bruce, “You either get it, or you don’t”
 
AggieMike88 said:
It isn’t. That’s in the criminal arena.

But the FAA doesn’t hold court in the criminal arena. They are administrative. And they hold the keys to the kingdoms and sandbox that is flying in the USA. They set the rules. We must play by them or be denied access.

We are trying to provide straight advice based on many of us seeing many many threads like this and listening to what our esteemed AME’s in residence, Dr. Bruce and Dr. Lou have said in response.

That you are deflecting and defending because you’re not being told what you desire to hear makes me think you’re headed toward at best being stuck into an expensive medical penalty box, and at worst, medical revoked.

Paraphrasing Dr. Bruce, “You either get it, or you don’t”
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I’m deflecting because imagine being forced into HIMS due to a incident where you were a total victim.

I didn’t lose consciousness. None of the reports, medical summaries, or discharge forms list anything about alcohol or BAC. They initially took blood when I arrived at the trauma center and it shows on one lone lab report (out of about 100).
 
You shouldn't drink and if you do find better bars. As far as bringing this up? I think getting stabbed in the stomach is punishment enough, alcohol didn't get you robbed or stabbed, at least directly. It's not a dui, you weren't driving and I think many pilots have been over 0.15 in their lifetime at least once. Seriously though, alcohol hasn't been your friend.
 
PaulS said:
You shouldn't drink and if you do find better bars. As far as bringing this up? I think getting stabbed in the stomach is punishment enough, alcohol didn't get you robbed or stabbed, at least directly. It's not a dui, you weren't driving and I think many pilots have been over 0.15 in their lifetime at least once. Seriously though, alcohol hasn't been your friend.
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We were in a nice part of town. But you’re right, I’m done drinking. Sure I may have been an easy target due to my intoxication but doesn’t that border victim blaming?
 
“I’m deflecting because imagine being forced into HIMS due to a incident where you were a total victim”


THAT happens a lot.
 
Tools said:
“I’m deflecting because imagine being forced into HIMS due to a incident where you were a total victim”


THAT happens a lot.
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All I mean by that is I wasn’t driving a car, didn’t put anyone in danger etc. It was a lesson learned, unfortunately. I’m done boozing for good.
 
AggieMike88 said:
But, by your admission above, you were documented with a 0.163.

The FAA gets mighty grumpy with BAC’s that high. Look at past threads why they get grumpy.

Rough road possible ahead. And we here always suggest “know for certain you pass before you go”.

Never ever just spin the wheel and take a chance.
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Which question in Medxpress requires disclosing this BAC?
 
Very likely the FAA will request hospital records. If the records mention your BAC, they will know and they will do whatever they do.

But I see no reason you are required to tell them.
 
bflynn said:
Very likely the FAA will request hospital records.
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Based on what? I've reported hospitalizations to the FAA on a couple of occasions. On one, the AME requested records to confirm they'd ruled something out. On the other, all that was needed was to know I was recovered without limitations. Being stabbed isn't a medical condition requiring denial of a medical, so why would the FAA request records?

Correction: One was an ER visit and one was a multiple-day admission. In neither case did the AME or FAA request complete records.
 
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Lindberg said:
Which question in Medxpress requires disclosing this BAC?
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Said what I want to say and sticking to it.

OP should be seeking guidance from the right AME for his case to know if a Scheißsturm is on the horizon or not and how to proceed.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Said what I want to say and sticking to it.

OP should be seeking guidance from the right AME for his case to know if a Scheißsturm is on the horizon or not and how to proceed.
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The only reason I know about the BAC is from a online lab report. It wasn’t something that was disclosed to me. So what if I never saw it? Wasn’t like I knew they tested for it. ‘Hypothetically speaking’.
 
You fill out a form. Truthfully state hospital and doctors visits. AME looks at form. Asks questions if he/she needs to. Answer the questions. Medical certificate issued. How in the world would anything be flagged for further FAA investigation or FAA to request documentation?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
How the HELL can that be considered an alcohol event?
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It can be considered an alcohol event (not motor vehicle) because the FAA is trigger happy about alcohol, especially when they've warned an airman and strongly recommended abstinence. There's no reason for them to care except that they've previously said "be careful" and a BAC of .16 indicates hard drinking. That only matters if someone at the FAA learns of it and decides it matters.

No, it had nothing to do with him getting mugged. Yes, the OP was being responsible and not driving.

There really isn't anything to do, the die is already cast. The FAA will either ask for records or they won't. The records will either mention BAC or won't. The FAA will either react or they won't. Being prepared for it won't affect the outcome.

Don't volunteer any additional information. Keep the facts to the point.
 
Frankmarsh5 said:
I’m a 135 CA. I need a class I
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Call your AME's office. Tell the nurse or whomever that you were admitted to the hospital bc you were stabbed during a robbery. Ask what records you should bring. She may have to check with the doc. She may tell you you'll have to wait and ask him. If that's the case, then schedule a consult. If he says he doesn't need any records, there's your answer. If he wants the records, hand them over and see what he says during the consult.
 
Ugh. Stabbed in the stomach results in, “I’ll bet alcohol was involved.." and it all comes apart. Fault or not. My RFS demands the discharge summary for such “brawl” hospitalizations......

Greg, remember you are hearing only one side of the story.....

after a letter like you describe... you went out in public again with a big alcohol load.....sigh :(.
 
“All I mean by that is I wasn’t driving a car, didn’t put anyone in danger etc. It was a lesson learned, unfortunately. I’m done boozing for good.”

I understand, and don’t doubt anything you’ve said. And I don’t think how it MIGHT go down makes sense or is fair. I’m merely stating what I’ve observed with my own two eyes.

It’s kind of hard to wrap your head around...

Most here think you should consult a GOOD AME, and that’s not bad advice. I think you should consider consulting a GOOD lawyer if you want an even broader point of view.

A very poignant word with the FAA is mitigation... lawyers are good at that. That’s all.

I have personally spoken with SEVERAL people who had muggings, rape and injuries not due to negligence but who had some form of BAC and it was construed as an alcohol event.

Another and likely possibility is the FAA will defer by forcing an “evaluation” by some “addictionologist”.

Well, I know a guy who’s BAC report came back during his last week of rehab as 0.0. He was in rehab because that “evaluation” deemed him to have alcohol use disorder prior the the report. The eval was ordered because he was pulled over as a designated driver, and failed a field sobriety test which resulted in a blood draw.

This whole thing is nuts...
 
bbchien said:
Ugh. Stabbed in the stomach results in, “I’ll bet alcohol was involved.." and it all comes apart. Fault or not. My RFS demands the discharge summary for such “brawl” hospitalizations......

Greg, remember you are hearing only one side of the story.....

after a letter like you describe... you went out in public again with a big alcohol load.....sigh :(.
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My discharge summary is detailed but doesn’t state anything about alcohol.

You’re right I shouldn’t have been out in public that intoxicated, it sets you up for failure.
 
bbchien said:
Ugh. Stabbed in the stomach results in, “I’ll bet alcohol was involved.." and it all comes apart. Fault or not. My RFS demands the discharge summary for such “brawl” hospitalizations......

Greg, remember you are hearing only one side of the story.....

after a letter like you describe... you went out in public again with a big alcohol load.....sigh :(.
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There’s also video surveillance from a nearby store that shows the entire ordeal I can show the AME to prove it was unprovoked.
 
Actions have consequences...especially if you hold a pilot certificate. Is it ok to get legally drunk for a special occasion ?

A drunk driver pulled in front of me a few years ago..the accident caused him to be killed...my life was a living hell for a long time...his blood alcohol was way past being legally drunk. He lost his life. Was it worth getting drunk at his sister's wedding...and on Christmas Day to boot. His family and mine will never be the same.

My best advice is to decide if you want to drink or be a pilot.
 
Doug Reid said:
Actions have consequences...especially if you hold a pilot certificate. Is it ok to get legally drunk for a special occasion ?

A drunk driver pulled in front of me a few years ago..the accident caused him to be killed...my life was a living hell for a long time...his blood alcohol was way past being legally drunk. He lost his life. Was it worth getting drunk at his sister's wedding...and on Christmas Day to boot. His family and mine will never be the same.

My best advice is to decide if you want to drink or be a pilot.
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Im done drinking. Your comment of actions have consequences offends me though. I get if others are in danger such as driving. But does being intoxicated give someone the right to stab me?
 
What happened sucks, but if you're not in that bar drinking it doesn't happen. You were a victim of a crime, but you contributed to the circumstances by your choice of activities, level of intoxication, and venue.

You don't get a .16 BAC without quite a bit of consumption, and you don't maintain functioning at that level without tolerance developed over a long time frequently drinking.

You're a professional pilot. People in the aircraft and on the ground put their lives in your hands.

To the point... You're FAR "Substance Dependent", them seeing it will just make it official.

14 CFR 67.107 (a)(4)(ii)(A) defines substance dependence as anyone exhibiting increased tolerance. .16 is 2x the legal BAC limit in all states. The FAA de facto definition of increased tolerance is .15. You meet this criteria.

A strong argument could be made that you also meet 67.107 (a)(4)(ii)(D):
"Continued use despite damage to physical health or impairment of social, personal, or occupational functioning."

A case could be made that continuing to operate puts you in violation of the self grounding clause in 14 CFR 61.53 (a) (1):
"Knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make the person unable to meet the requirements for the medical certificate necessary for the pilot operation..."

Ultimately you have a choice to make on how you're going to proceed. Just know that the BAC test in your medical record is a ticking time bomb. If you get any future condition where they ask for your medical records it's going to be a bad day and you're going to end up in HIMS or you're going to be looking at a career change.
 
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ThatOtherGuy said:
What happened sucks, but if you're not in that bar drinking it doesn't happen. You were a victim of a crime, but you contributed to the circumstances by your choice of activities, level of intoxication, and venue.

You don't get a .16 BAC without quite a bit of consumption, and you don't maintain functioning at that level without tolerance developed over a long time frequently drinking.

You're a professional pilot. People in the aircraft and on the ground put their lives in your hands.

To the point... You're FAR "Substance Dependent", them seeing it will just make it official.

14 CFR 67.107 (a)(4)(ii)(A) defines substance dependence as anyone exhibiting increased tolerance. .16 is 2x the legal BAC limit in almost all states. The FAA de facto definition of increased tolerance is .15. You meet this criteria.

A strong argument could be made that you also meet 67.107 (a)(4)(ii)(D):
"Continued use despite damage to physical health or impairment of social, personal, or occupational functioning."

A case could be made that continuing to operate puts you in violation of the self grounding clause in 14 CFR 61.53 (a) (1):
"Knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make the person unable to meet the requirements for the medical certificate necessary for the pilot operation..."

Ultimately you have a choice to make on how you're going to proceed. Just know that the BAC test in your medical record is a ticking time bomb. If you get any future condition where they ask for your medical records it's going to be a bad day and you're going to end up in HIMS or you're going to be looking at a career change.
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I didn’t get stabbed in a bar. It happened on a street corner while waiting for a taxi. Could’ve happened to anyone. Look at the number of shootings in Chicago. I really do fail to see how drinking contributed to getting stabbed and robbed.
 
Frankmarsh5 said:
I didn’t get stabbed in a bar. It happened on a street corner while waiting for a taxi. Could’ve happened to anyone. Look at the number of shootings in Chicago. I really do fail to see how drinking contributed to getting stabbed and robbed.
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You asked for advice and it's been given. You have an answer for everyone trying to give you advice that doesn't fit your view of reality. Since you're going to continue to be in denial I'll lay it out as clearly as I can.

1. Your livelihood depends on being able to fly and obtain a medical certificate.
2. You were on notice with the FAA due to a previous DUI.
3. You got stabbed leaving a bar with a .163 BAC going to an Uber. You had to order the Uber because you went to the bar with the intent of getting too drunk to drive.
4. There's a very strong chance you were targeted because you were visibly drunk and an easy mark.
5. If you weren't drunk none of this would even be an issue. The knife didn't inject you with alcohol, and no one forced you to drink it. The stabbing is irrelevant, it just happened to be the event that shined a light on your heavy alcohol consumption.

There's a pattern here, and that pattern is you drinking heavily, getting in bad situations, and continuing to drink. You have a problem.
 
ThatOtherGuy said:
You asked for advice and it's been given. You have an answer for everyone trying to give you advice that doesn't fit your view of reality. Since you're going to continue to be in denial I'll lay it out as clearly as I can.

1. Your livelihood depends on being able to fly and obtain a medical certificate.
2. You were on notice with the FAA due to a previous DUI.
3. You got stabbed leaving a bar with a .163 BAC going to an Uber. You had to order the Uber because you went to the bar with the intent of getting too drunk to drive.
4. There's a very strong chance you were targeted because you were visibly drunk and an easy mark.
5. If you weren't drunk none of this would even be an issue. The knife didn't inject you with alcohol, and no one forced you to drink it. The stabbing is irrelevant, it just happened to be the event that shined a light on your heavy alcohol consumption.

There's a pattern here, and that pattern is you drinking heavily, getting in bad situations, and continuing to drink. You have a problem.
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what if I was at home, with the same BAC and someone broke into my home and did the same thing? Would you blame me for that as well?
 
Wow, I'm just getting started, but if I ever get stabbed I will just break out super glue like my dad used on his hog hunting dogs.

I don't think .13 is that much, in college a friend at a party had one of those blow things,.08 isn't even drunk, I'm sure in milliseconds it can be noticeable, but for normal things it wasn't much, I'd bet most who drink, especially who know they don't have to drive easily get around the top figure.

This guy is a victim and many here are blaming him :(
 
Frankmarsh5 said:
I didn’t get stabbed in a bar. It happened on a street corner while waiting for a taxi. Could’ve happened to anyone. Look at the number of shootings in Chicago. I really do fail to see how drinking contributed to getting stabbed and robbed.
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I see your point but there's the other side of the debate that says not being there, not being inebriated, not being fully aware of your surroundings & not prepared to face being in a hostile environment is not the fault of the attacker. They simply took advantage of the situation you allowed to develop. Had you been home, sober, aware of the danger of your surroundings, or legally prepared to protect/defend yourself the outcome most likely would have had a different result.
 
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