Act as PIC per 61.31, Log PIC per 61.51

[Fabio]

My son is currently attending a part 141 aviation college in Ohio.

He’s currently an ASEL private pilot with instrument rating and he’s working right now on his commercial rating.

Per 61.129 he’s required to have 10 hrs of complex training in order to meet his minimum requirement for the checkride.

However the school it’s requiring 11 hours of training and then an additional 7 hours of PIC time.

My question is that since he’s receiving training with an instructor, in a complex single engine airplane of which he’s rated, shouldn’t he be allowed to log PIC time as per 61.51 while training ?

The school is telling him that he’s not allowed to log pic time while training thus requiring him to spend additional time and money to log pic after the endorsement.
Does the school supersede the FAR regulations or can he ask to log pic time while in training?

The way I see it, they are confusing between “acting as a PIC”, which you need to be “endorsed “ by an instructor before able to do so and “logging PIC” time while receiving training in an aircraft you are rated for, same as you would log PIC time while receiving training for a tail wheel endorsement or a complex for that matter.

Thank you for your help.

 

[thito01]

First: The endorsement should come after just an hour or so of transition time. I can understand that the school may limit solo time until they fell the pilot will always put the gear down, but the endorsement should come quickly.
Second: I also agree that he can log pic as 'sole manipulator' while being given instruction. Other than 'sometimes' touching the prop handle or gear selector, just what would the instructor do that remove 'sole manipulator' from the equation.
BUT(!), this is a part 141 school. They have their own rules. (But, I don't think that overrides how flights are logged.)

 

[dmspilot]

It's Part 141 so you have to meet the syllabus requirements. No one here can tell you if the school is interpreting its syllabus correctly. There are cases where Part 141 can require more time on specific things than 61; If it requires 18 hours of complex time then that's the requirement. Isn't an extra 8 hours of complex time worth saving 60 hours total time though?

 

[EdFred]

If what you've said is accurate, the school appears to be run by idiots in regards to acting and logging.

 

[ja_user]

Isn't an extra 8 hours of complex time worth saving 60 hours total time though?

That isn’t what typically happens.

 

[elephant212]

61.129 doesn't even require time in a complex plane these days. The 10 hours can be in a technically advanced airplane (TAA) instead.

 

[Lindberg]

My son is currently attending a part 141 aviation college in Ohio.

He’s currently an ASEL private pilot with instrument rating and he’s working right now on his commercial rating.

Per 61.129 he’s required to have 10 hrs of complex training in order to meet his minimum requirement for the checkride.

However the school it’s requiring 11 hours of training and then an additional 7 hours of PIC time.

My question is that since he’s receiving training with an instructor, in a complex single engine airplane of which he’s rated, shouldn’t he be allowed to log PIC time as per 61.51 while training ?

The school is telling him that he’s not allowed to log pic time while training thus requiring him to spend additional time and money to log pic after the endorsement.
Does the school supersede the FAR regulations or can he ask to log pic time while in training?

The way I see it, they are confusing between “acting as a PIC”, which you need to be “endorsed “ by an instructor before able to do so and “logging PIC” time while receiving training in an aircraft you are rated for, same as you would log PIC time while receiving training for a tail wheel endorsement or a complex for that matter.

Thank you for your help.

It's his logbook, not the schools, and you are correct WRT logging. But the school can require what it requires.

 

[WDD]

The school is telling him that he’s not allowed to log pic time while training

I think there is miscommunication between what the school thought it was telling your son, and then perhaps between your son and you. Nothing sounds right. Was he (and I for that matter) not allowed to log PIC time while getting instrument training from the CFII? Thus, how can he not get allowable PIC loggable hours while with an instructor for complex, TAA, commercial, etc.?

 

[Fabio]

This just came from the local fsdo and I think the bottom really puts to rest what people really confuse between the two.

 

[dmspilot]

This just came from the local fsdo and I think the bottom really puts to rest what people really confuse between the two.

You cited 61.129 to refute a Part 141 requirement, just who is confused?

 

[Fabio]

You cited 61.129 to refute a Part 141 requirement, just who is confused?

This document should clarify 61.129 for you as well.

 

[dmspilot]

This document should clarify 61.129 for you as well.

Nope, you're still confused. Appendix D to Part 141 is a course syllabus minimum training specification. The student has to comply with the syllabus, not Appendix D. The syllabus will undoubtedly require more hours on certain areas as there are 120 hours to fill and different schools fill up the hours in different ways.