Accidently Gave Over 8 Hours of Dual Given

G

GenericFlyer

Guest
When I was getting caught up with logging time in my logbook for the previous week, I noticed that I gave over 8 hours of dual to multiple students during my last workday.

I rarely ever have a full schedule from the flight school and would've never ever thought I would come ever close to violating 61.195. How would y'all recommend I deal with this violation. Would a NASA report suffice?
 
At the moment the clock struck eight hours you turned into a pumpkin. Therefore, after that moment, flight training could not occur. So amend any and all records to reflect that while a flight did occur, flight training did not occur. The flight training that did not occur cannot be used towards a new certificate or rating, or student currency, or flight review or similar.

*my GED in Internet law has also turned into a pumpkin.
 
File the ASRS, write up a pithy anecdote about how unintentional it was and what led to this transgression, and how you will sin no more.

If this is your worst life problem, you've got things figured out. Bravo. :)
 
Yawn...If you have an inspector trying to bust you over that, they've already got their mind on busting you, and they'll get you for something else. Don't make a habit of it.
 
I may have been guilty of this a time or two. How's it going to be detected? Don't make it a habit & fly on.
 
Are you sure that last session wasn’t just after midnight? I think I saw you going to the airplane at 12:01am in the next day. You just accidentally logged it for the previous day. Easy fix.
 
I wouldn’t worry too much about it, [mention]SixPapaCharlie [/mention]
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Are you sure that last session wasn’t just after midnight? I think I saw you going to the airplane at 12:01am in the next day. You just accidentally logged it for the previous day. Easy fix.
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Unless the day started at midnight, it wouldn’t help…
Hours of training. In any 24-consecutive-hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hours of flight training.
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probably violated more often by giving instruction on subsequent days than 8 hours in a single calendar day.

I’d say just file a NASA report, and go and sin no more. Unless it happens on a regular basis, it’ll probably never be an issue.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Inadvertent errors happen. The FAA understands that.

Falsification, on the other hand, is something the FAA seriously frowns upon.
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The regulations require the CFI to put the instruction time in the students logbook, the CFI is not required to put the time in their logbook.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Not logging something for the purpose of hiding a violation is still falsification.
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§ 61.59 Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.
(a) No person may make or cause to be made:

(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a certificate, rating, authorization, or duplicate thereof, issued under this part;

(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part;

(3) Any reproduction for fraudulent purpose of any certificate, rating, or authorization, under this part; or

(4) Any alteration of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part.

(b) The commission of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking any airman certificate, rating, or authorization held by that person.

I look at counting illegal time to get to the airlines as a larger infraction.
 
Clip4 said:
I look at counting illegal time to get to the airlines as a larger infraction.
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We quite regularly have applicants who don’t use all of the time in their logbooks for those purposes. No need to commit both infractions.
 
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If an inspector busts you for that, they’re looking for something to hang you on. If you get audited that closely, just admit it as a mistake and move on. I think you’ll be fine.
 
Wanna know how many CFIs have done that, none. Because it never happens. Or if it did CFIs didn’t put it out there on the internet. But I seriously doubt anyone has got into trouble.
 
No clue about the instruction / 61 World, but the 135 / 121 World they’ll be after you hardcore.
 
It also depends why you went over the flight hours. In the 135/121 World if you were legal when you took off but overflew the block due to unforeseen reason (higher headwinds, unanticipated ATC vectors/route changes, etc) then there is no problem. In the CFI world you if went over 8 hours while in the pattern that would be a problem but if the last student was a XC that the last leg took longer than flight planned due to higher headwinds, unforecasted weather, ATC delays, etc. then no problems.
 
Yeah, intuitively I'm not such a fan of filling out that Nasa form..... it's just documenting and calling attention to the error
but I am also most definitely not in the camp of lying about it.
Makes plausible sense in my simple mind what others have said...it probably happens somewhere daily or at least weekly without ever even being known...and it's likely that if they are nit picking to that granular of a level they're gonna bust you anyway for something.
 
Brad W said:
Yeah, intuitively I'm not such a fan of filling out that Nasa form..... it's just documenting and calling attention to the error
but I am also most definitely not in the camp of lying about it.
Makes plausible sense in my simple mind what others have said...it probably happens somewhere daily or at least weekly without ever even being known...and it's likely that if they are nit picking to that granular of a level they're gonna bust you anyway for something.
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The ASRS is an important facet of the continuing effort by government, industry, and individuals to maintain and improve aviation safety.


Can someone explain what a CFI flying past 8 hours have to do with improving aviation safety?
 
TommyG said:
The ASRS is an important facet of the continuing effort by government, industry, and individuals to maintain and improve aviation safety.


Can someone explain what a CFI flying past 8 hours have to do with improving aviation safety?
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Fatigue..??

It’s a real thing.
 
Kritchlow said:
Fatigue..??

It’s a real thing.
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is a real thing, but a stretch for a nasa form. I know lots of pilots wanna fill one out every time someone farts in the plane. But worrying about going over allows CFI time?
 
TommyG said:
is a real thing, but a stretch for a nasa form. I know lots of pilots wanna fill one out every time someone farts in the plane. But worrying about going over allows CFI time?
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I would sure fill one out. Why not? Cheap insurance.
 
TommyG said:
The ASRS is an important facet of the continuing effort by government, industry, and individuals to maintain and improve aviation safety.


Can someone explain what a CFI flying past 8 hours have to do with improving aviation safety?
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Why does the reg exist?
 
Kritchlow said:
Cheap insurance.
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I think your “insurance” is good for just one occurrence. Not multiple violations of the same reg in the same week.

"Once is an accident. Twice is a coincidence. Three times is enemy action." - Ian Fleming.
 
jayhawk74 said:
It also depends why you went over the flight hours. In the 135/121 World if you were legal when you took off but overflew the block due to unforeseen reason (higher headwinds, unanticipated ATC vectors/route changes, etc) then there is no problem. In the CFI world you if went over 8 hours while in the pattern that would be a problem but if the last student was a XC that the last leg took longer than flight planned due to higher headwinds, unforecasted weather, ATC delays, etc. then no problems.
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61.195a shows no such exception or allowance.
 
It’s not clear if this applies to all training.
So if I hired a CFI to help transition to a new type while helping me fly new plane back home, that means I can only fly as far as 8 hours will take me
Or because I’m already a pilot so I’m PIC and CFI is just instructing this flight limitation doesn’t matter. In other words after 7 hours I tell the CFI is off the clock until I need him.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
It’s not clear if this applies to all training.
So if I hired a CFI to help transition to a new type while helping me fly new plane back home, that means I can only fly as far as 8 hours will take me
Or because I’m already a pilot so I’m PIC and CFI is just instructing this flight limitation doesn’t matter. In other words after 7 hours I tell the CFI is off the clock until I need him.
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61.195a is pretty clear and applies to any dual given, for any reason. If you are in the air when that 8 hours is up, then the CFI can no longer provide training. So the CFI has to become either a passenger or the pilot, depending on the situation. And the logbook should show that.

Now, that's the rule. What happens behind closed cockpit doors is up to you...

I think it's pretty clear that this rule is written from the standpoint of busy flight school flying, where 5 or 6 flights in a day equalling 8 hours is very fatiguing and it's a good safety rule for that purpose. But it's written generically and applies to any training.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Not logging something for the purpose of hiding a violation is still falsification.
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no is not. you are not required under 61.51 to log dual given. you are not required under 61.189 to keep any record of the flight. so by not logging it you have not falsified anything. yes, they can violate you for far 61.195 (a) but you are under no requirement to log any of it, and therefore, if you do not log it, you have falsified nothing. now, if they bring you and ask about it, and you lie about it, now you have bigger problems to deal with.
 
unsafervguy said:
no is not. you are not required under 61.51 to log dual given. you are not required under 61.189 to keep any record of the flight. so by not logging it you have not falsified anything. yes, they can violate you for far 61.195 (a) but you are under no requirement to log any of it, and therefore, if you do not log it, you have falsified nothing. now, if they bring you and ask about it, and you lie about it, now you have bigger problems to deal with.
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Depends how you read 61.195, I guess.
 
RussR said:
61.195a is pretty clear and applies to any dual given, for any reason. If you are in the air when that 8 hours is up, then the CFI can no longer provide training. So the CFI has to become either a passenger or the pilot, depending on the situation. And the logbook should show that.

Now, that's the rule. What happens behind closed cockpit doors is up to you...

I think it's pretty clear that this rule is written from the standpoint of busy flight school flying, where 5 or 6 flights in a day equalling 8 hours is very fatiguing and it's a good safety rule for that purpose. But it's written generically and applies to any training.
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So the rule clearly states flight training. So a CFI can do 10 hours of ground instructing, and then legally jump in and do 8 hours of flight instruction. This whole rule is just a pointless number. What about the CFI that has to work a full time job to pay the bills? So legally he can work 8,10, 12 hours at another job get out of there and jump in a plane with a student.
 
NorthEast Ohio said:
I think your “insurance” is good for just one occurrence. Not multiple violations of the same reg in the same week.

"Once is an accident. Twice is a coincidence. Three times is enemy action." - Ian Fleming.
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Yes. I was not aware the OP had multiple violations of same reg in one week.
Perhaps I didn’t read closely enough.
 
TommyG said:
So the rule clearly states flight training. So a CFI can do 10 hours of ground instructing, and then legally jump in and do 8 hours of flight instruction. This whole rule is just a pointless number. What about the CFI that has to work a full time job to pay the bills? So legally he can work 8,10, 12 hours at another job get out of there and jump in a plane with a student.
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Similar “loopholes” exist in Part 135, and probably 121 with regard to duty times. Like everything else, if they wrote the reg to cover every possible permutation, we wouldn’t have the nice, compact set of regulations we have now.

Duty time limits are actually more about limiting an employer than a pilot.
 
Kritchlow said:
Yes. I was not aware the OP had multiple violations of same reg in one week.
Perhaps I didn’t read closely enough.
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I didn't read it that way either.
OP said "I noticed that I gave over 8 hours of dual to multiple students during my last workday."

Unless he means he just noticed during his last workday, I'm surmising it was just for the one day, and all the dual time for multiple students that day totaled more than 8 hrs.

The choice is ASRS or not.
Either way, no prison time, fines, or community service involved.

Just don't put on the ASRS that you had a couple Mojito's at lunch..
 
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