Accident report

benyflyguy said:
The autopsy part of the report went into detail of the meds in his system. One of them being Prozac. Giving an SSRI (prozac among others) to a person who is bipolar but depressed will flip them into an acute manic episode. The psych recognized this and advised the appropriate action but guys who are manic think there is nothing wrong with them.
Click to expand...

I skimmed and missed the autopsy stuff.

It’s crap like this that keeps the FAA Aeromed insanity “justified”. People somehow getting around the Medical system and making it all the way to the scene of the crash full of meds that should have at least triggered a Special Issuance.

So weird.
 
"..........the pilot had logged 23.8 hours of actual instrument experience and 1.6 hours of simulated instrument experience......."

a total of 14 instrument approaches, never more than one per flight that I saw. All the entries seem to have been in the same handwriting.
 
mscard88 said:
Yep, that what I was saying too. Happens all the time....people buy beyond their skill and capability. This accident shouldn't have happened but the pilot pushed beyond his ability, with a well equipped plane.
Click to expand...
Always amazes me that the Navy considers a T-28 a basic trainer? Wonder what the washout rate is?
 
mscard88 said:
View attachment 64192
Click to expand...

I call it the “nope!” maneuver. An example...

9068ad12c6af2292b51f1f74a5b650b6.jpeg


But then there’s the hurricane hunters...

b9871feea0cc90c915a46cc334013194.jpeg
 
benyflyguy said:
What did you do!?
Click to expand...

Here's what it looked at the entrance (where the airplane icon was), looking west:

y.jpg

At this point it was obvious that there's a path through, I could see the sharp horizon on the other side. The cells correspond fairly precisely to what radar was showing.

This is how it looks from the exit (looking due east, after I already turned back on course, to the south):

z.jpg

Of course, the proof is in the pudding: the guy in the report crashed and died. The weather does not allow complacency. But if you avoid every cell, you're not going anywhere, I'm afraid. The radar alone is not the full picture, especially a screencap: it's not telling you how strong winds are and if the cell is young or old.

If you see a spiral though, you can be sure it's bad news.
 
Cruzinchris said:
Munson was flying with an instructor. Not really the same thing.
Click to expand...

He was flying with the CFI that had instructed him in his Duke. The guy had never been in a Citation (or any bizjet) before the fatal flight and didn't have turbine experience of any type.
 
3393RP said:
He was flying with the CFI that had instructed him in his Duke. The guy had never been in a Citation (or any bizjet) before the fatal flight and didn't have turbine experience of any type.
Click to expand...

I’ve never read the Munson story but how did I know a Duke had to be involved somehow? ;) ;) ;)
 
Munson went from PPL to Duke to Citation to dead in less than 150 hours IIRC.
 
I may have missed it in the discussion above, so forgive me if this has already been pointed out, but one thing about thunderstorms is that they don't just move quickly, they can form quickly. I've seen plenty of blue skies turn to spitting hailstones in nearly the blink of an eye. If you are looking at your NEXRAD imagery that you got from sources like ADS-B or a cellular-connected iPad, you might see green and think you'll just go through some rain, but find out when the wings fall off the airplane that the cell had turned red between the radar sweep that you are looking at and the time your airplane flies into it.

If that happened here, it would not be the first time that the delay between the radar image you see in the cockpit and what's really happening in the air was involved in a fatal crash. For example:

Edit to change video. I always get the titles of these two backwards:


Repeat after me: NEXRAD imagery is for strategic planning. Onboard radar equipment is for tactical planning.
 
Last edited:
denverpilot said:
I skimmed and missed the autopsy stuff.

It’s crap like this that keeps the FAA Aeromed insanity “justified”. People somehow getting around the Medical system and making it all the way to the scene of the crash full of meds that should have at least triggered a Special Issuance.

So weird.
Click to expand...
It’s a circular argument. I see it as proof the system does nothing to improve safety and accidents like this one prove that regulation doesn’t change behavior or outcome if someone ignores policies and good judgment. So why harass everyone in a vain attempt to modify behavior of a person that chooses not to comply. Others see this as evidence to justify the rules.
 
In the late 80's I worked for NCAR. We flew a Lockheed L-188 (civilian P-3) all over the world into some really hairy weather. Also went through the plum of a active volcano in Alaska. It was equipped to take air samples. Fun stuff.
 
denverpilot said:
Some number (small but significant) of pilots tests mother nature’s power inside a thunderstorm almost every year since I was first given a pilot certificate in 1991, and very few live to tell the story. The few who do, to a person, all say “never ever ever again”.
Click to expand...

I am one of those few. While I was concerned with the situation I was in, I really felt alone when the controller told me, "Heading and altitude your discretion, just do what you need to do, the airspace is all yours."

I probably had only a couple thousand hours and was flying cancelled checks in a C-210. The chief pilot told us to fly through thunderstorms as that was the shortest way through. I did not find a single cell thunderstorm, I found the imbedded ones.

Longest 30 minutes of my life that I never want to experience again.
 
Cruzinchris said:
In the late 80's I worked for NCAR. We flew a Lockheed L-188 (civilian P-3) all over the world into some really hairy weather. Also went through the plum of a active volcano in Alaska. It was equipped to take air samples. Fun stuff.
Click to expand...

So you’re one of the crazy people! :) Hehehe.
 
iamtheari said:
I may have missed it in the discussion above, so forgive me if this has already been pointed out, but one thing about thunderstorms is that they don't just move quickly, they can form quickly. I've seen plenty of blue skies turn to spitting hailstones in nearly the blink of an eye. If you are looking at your NEXRAD imagery that you got from sources like ADS-B or a cellular-connected iPad, you might see green and think you'll just go through some rain, but find out when the wings fall off the airplane that the cell had turned red between the radar sweep that you are looking at and the time your airplane flies into it.

If that happened here, it would not be the first time that the delay between the radar image you see in the cockpit and what's really happening in the air was involved in a fatal crash. For example:

Edit to change video. I always get the titles of these two backwards:


Repeat after me: NEXRAD imagery is for strategic planning. Onboard radar equipment is for tactical planning.
Click to expand...
I really like that AOPA series...in most of them, I'm yelling at my screen, something like, "You idiot! Why are you continuing this flight?" But not on the one you posted...although before watching that one I already knew that nexrad was delayed and (obviously) that guy didn't, I really felt bad for that guy...it seemed like an honest mistake by an otherwise careful guy, that cost him and his family's lives.
 
tawood said:
I really like that AOPA series...in most of them, I'm yelling at my screen, something like, "You idiot! Why are you continuing this flight?" But not on the one you posted...although before watching that one I already knew that nexrad was delayed and (obviously) that guy didn't, I really felt bad for that guy...it seemed like an honest mistake by an otherwise careful guy, that cost him and his family's lives.
Click to expand...
I like that they don't just stop with the obvious conclusion, and dive deeper with some thoughtfulness. The pilot did not know that the NEXRAD imagery is delayed before it is even transmitted. I did not know that before watching this video for the first time. ADS-B or XM may say that the data is 2 minutes old but there are multiple more minutes of delay between the radar sweeps and the computer putting them together into a single image to transmit to you. I agree with you that this pilot probably made an honest but fatal mistake, stemming from an assumption that his avionics told him the total delay between the realtime radar sweep and the display on his screen. The lesson I take from this one is to study all your equipment's features and limitations.

I think that the pilot in the accident report that started this thread was careless in addition to not understanding the limitations of in-cockpit NEXRAD data. We can learn from both of those contributory causes to the crash.
 
benyflyguy said:
The hours this guy accumulated in a very short period of time is hard to believe. Sounds like he had a lot of things wrong with him before the flight though.
Click to expand...

Yep, most of his training and hours were very suspect, parker hours. Invulnerable plus impressing the folks with him.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top