PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Opposing Bases podcast has talked about this issue from controller's pov. Last week's episode has some these comments. Worth the listen.
Abusive Vectoring
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Bob Noel
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Velocity173
My brother retired out of ABI tower couple years ago. He texted me once about how the new guys use the vector feature of their software (STARS) as a crutch. They use it during low traffic when the distraction of a few key strokes doesn't matter. Once traffic picks up, they don’t have time to use the vector feature so they have to pull one out their ***. Then, their vectors go to crap because they’ve never gotten proficient in visualizing vectors on their own. Sometimes old school procedures beat the automation that we rely on so heavily on in aviation.
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I've worked with both. I have to disagree.
Lindberg
Final Approach
What altitudes? I flew through the area yesterday. The only instruction Austin gave me was "I need you to deviate left or right 20* to avoid skydivers." Waco was so quiet I heard three or four radio checks.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
You are the one that called ATC, they didn’t call you. With TIS-B I not sure why you needed traffic advisories.
On flights with two-to-three hour legs, it's harder to maintain the necessary level of focus to spot everything myself. Also, not all of the traffic has transponders.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Not all aircraft without transponders (gliders) in the en route environment show up on radar and you have to be able to spot them yourself.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
What episode and do you remember about what time it started?
Country Flier
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PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
It's in the last Monday's episode, which recapped previous episodes, somewhere in the middle. They talk about this relatively often though.
Flying near Bravos and Charlies without talking to them is kind of a crapshoot. You don't know what ATC is doing with heavy traffic which can change on a moments notice. They make good points where basically if you are above 1,200 agl outside busy airspace, you can be in the way. Which is perfectly legal, but really not too bright. The point is that by vectoring you they are keeping you away from places that if you realized you were in you wouldn't want to be, if you have half a brain.
I heard an exchange near Providence, a jet was flying into the airport, a pilot of a faster Piper was in the approach path apparently maneuvering just out side of the charlie. Again, not illegal, but just flying unpredictably. The jet was on a visual, basically a long final, the other plane flew through his approach path, plenty of distance to spare. The controller had told the jet that was going to happen, he had no idea what the guy was doing and he wasn't talking to the other airplane. A few seconds later, the controller called the jet up again telling him the plane had done a 180 and they were on a collision course. The jet called back saying that he had visual on him and maneuvered around him. The Piper guy just kept flying around mostly likely clueless as to how close he had come.
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Bro do you even lift
HAHAHA, nice! that didn't take long.......
danhagan
En-Route
We've had a bunch of trainees at our Class C the past couple of years. Most can't handle more than one plane airborne in the Class C which presents a major problem as Biggs Field army airport Class D is inside and under their airspace. The 'CURE"? Re-route all vfr small aircraft into Mexican airspace
If transitioning east from west El Paso and don't want the hassle, either ride low through Anthony Gap to the north or ask for a transition directly over the river, and still that doesn't always work ...
The older controllers were smooth there often with TNG traffic on the parallels and commercial inbound-departing 22-4 RWY along with Biggs Army airfield 21-3 RWY arrivals, hospital life flights downtown, CPB choppers and military choppers all mixed in ...
Shawn
En-Route
Did you try "request lower and direct when able" at any point?
While FF is a two way street ATC is gonna move you to where it is convenient for them when needed and not always remember to fix what they did to meet back up with your plans...I never assume they are going to know my expectations and if things are not going as well as I would like I speak up.
While FF is a two way street ATC is gonna move you to where it is convenient for them when needed and not always remember to fix what they did to meet back up with your plans...I never assume they are going to know my expectations and if things are not going as well as I would like I speak up.
Unit74
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Kenny Phillips
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We expected crappy routings in busy areas with VFR FF. And we got it! Good practice for that instrument ticket, is how I thought of it.
It's a pretty safe bet that he knew I would prefer not to have a bravo bust.
schmookeeg
En-Route
That is frequently WAY too many syllables to shove onto NorCal when they're crazy busy. All you'll do is jam the frequency for 5 seconds and muck up 3 other clearances that those pilots are itchy to receive.
I'm sure it's implied that a 172 enroute wants to land and prefers to go direct when able. I suspect they'd love nothing more, except for those other pesky dots on the scope.
It's hectic here sometimes. I file IFR a LOT more than I need to here, just to get first class status, and man, even THAT will see me with a short leash on a clearance limit, and only getting the further clearance at 15 seconds from the fix, and I've been trying to ask for my next waypoint for 5 minutes.
Ok folks,
Perhaps this has been covered - but let's think about it. Unless you are IFR or VFR in airspace where you have to be talking to someone (i.e., B,C,D) ATC can't tell you to do anything - this is part of the reason I always tell controllers when I am VFR and feel like I'm to close to called traffic "Bugsmasher 1235 will accept vectors" often times they'll give you vectors. Remember, they do not have to voluntarily do this! The important thing is to never rely on flight following to keep you from hitting something or busting airspace. Likewise if ATC suggests a vector when I'm VFR I appreciate that - they've usually got a reason why - they've taken the time to pay attention to me - I appreciate that.
Situational awareness is the key - if the controllers start trying to vector you around there is probably a reason why. Sometimes you can decipher the conflict form another airplane on the radio. Other times it's for a departure or arrival path - most of the time my experience is they'll tell you this. Occasionally a controller both VFR and IFR will try to get you out of their hair by sending you to some intersection in BFE. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) this is the case in busy airspace where the controller smells fear or incompetence in the voice of the pilot. Remember, even when you have to follow the controllers directions you can still ask why they are having you do what they want you to do.
Final point that is somewhat related involves watching out for your life when flying along under class B shelves. So the deal is they are supposed to keep the fast IFR traffic contained in the class B airspace - my experience is this doesn't always happen. They've modified the Midway airspace to deal with this, but prior to the modification you would find inbound 737's under the class B shelf just off the lakeshore. Beyond this remember there is all sizes and shapes of traffic operating under those shelves
Perhaps this has been covered - but let's think about it. Unless you are IFR or VFR in airspace where you have to be talking to someone (i.e., B,C,D) ATC can't tell you to do anything - this is part of the reason I always tell controllers when I am VFR and feel like I'm to close to called traffic "Bugsmasher 1235 will accept vectors" often times they'll give you vectors. Remember, they do not have to voluntarily do this! The important thing is to never rely on flight following to keep you from hitting something or busting airspace. Likewise if ATC suggests a vector when I'm VFR I appreciate that - they've usually got a reason why - they've taken the time to pay attention to me - I appreciate that.
Situational awareness is the key - if the controllers start trying to vector you around there is probably a reason why. Sometimes you can decipher the conflict form another airplane on the radio. Other times it's for a departure or arrival path - most of the time my experience is they'll tell you this. Occasionally a controller both VFR and IFR will try to get you out of their hair by sending you to some intersection in BFE. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) this is the case in busy airspace where the controller smells fear or incompetence in the voice of the pilot. Remember, even when you have to follow the controllers directions you can still ask why they are having you do what they want you to do.
Final point that is somewhat related involves watching out for your life when flying along under class B shelves. So the deal is they are supposed to keep the fast IFR traffic contained in the class B airspace - my experience is this doesn't always happen. They've modified the Midway airspace to deal with this, but prior to the modification you would find inbound 737's under the class B shelf just off the lakeshore. Beyond this remember there is all sizes and shapes of traffic operating under those shelves
Lindberg
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Bob Noel
Aircraft without transponders can still be seen by primary radar.
But how do they know you are the dot they are looking at?
ElPaso Pilot
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We've had a bunch of trainees at our Class C the past couple of years. Most can't handle more than one plane airborne in the Class C which presents a major problem as Biggs Field army airport Class D is inside and under their airspace. The 'CURE"? Re-route all vfr small aircraft into Mexican airspace
If transitioning east from west El Paso and don't want the hassle, either ride low through Anthony Gap to the north or ask for a transition directly over the river, and still that doesn't always work ...
The older controllers were smooth there often with TNG traffic on the parallels and commercial inbound-departing 22-4 RWY along with Biggs Army airfield 21-3 RWY arrivals, hospital life flights downtown, CPB choppers and military choppers all mixed in ...
Love the southbound diversions over Juarez -- with the "how deep into Mexico before asking if you forgot about me" thoughts after a long no-contact.
ELP also denied my 5500' departure request for the short hop to Santa Teresa, as it was not an "legal westbound VFR altitude." KELP field is at 3900'.
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Velocity173
We've had a bunch of trainees at our Class C the past couple of years. Most can't handle more than one plane airborne in the Class C which presents a major problem as Biggs Field army airport Class D is inside and under their airspace. The 'CURE"? Re-route all vfr small aircraft into Mexican airspace
If transitioning east from west El Paso and don't want the hassle, either ride low through Anthony Gap to the north or ask for a transition directly over the river, and still that doesn't always work ...
The older controllers were smooth there often with TNG traffic on the parallels and commercial inbound-departing 22-4 RWY along with Biggs Army airfield 21-3 RWY arrivals, hospital life flights downtown, CPB choppers and military choppers all mixed in ...
I went through there once on the way to Cali and it seemed quite busy. The problem with busy Cs or even Ds is they don’t have the staffing or sectoring like the big Bs.
Years ago I took a tour of ATl approach. My friend was a supervisor there at the time and showed me around. While the traffic was a constant stream, he said working approach there was easier than where we worked together (NBC). Reason being is two fold. First, everyone is coming / going into ATL on STARs / SIDs. You’re basically monitoring aircraft. All the airliners are also assigned speeds to hit along the way. It’s an orderly flow of traffic. A lot of your Cs and Ds don’t have that luxury so it’s up to the controller to be very efficient at vectoring and altitude assignment. Second, everything is sectorized so much that no one controller is getting overloaded. I watched one guy working approach that just worked arrivals within like 20 miles. Basically cleared them for the visual, then typed in a “V” in the data block to confirm a pilot had visual sep with another aircraft on the parallel. Really didn’t look difficult or taxing on the controller at all. Almost looked boring. Now, I imagine when the weather hits the fan there it becomes a massive PITA but 90 % of the time ops are pretty efficient in and out of ATL.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
You have to talk to them, they have you turn to verify you, then tag you on their radar. I think.
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Velocity173
30 degree turn or more. Or, simple position correlation.
Thanks Lindberg - you seem to know what's going on here so help me.
I didn't think they were supposed to be giving you vectors when you were receiving flight following so how if they are not supposed to be giving you vectors are you going to receive an instruction.
That's the reason I tell them I'll accept vectors.
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luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
5−3−2. PRIMARY RADAR IDENTIFICATION METHODS
Identify a primary, radar beacon, or ADS−B target by using one of the following methods:
a. Observing a departing aircraft target within 1 mile of the takeoff runway end at airports with an operating control tower, provided one of the following methods of coordination is accomplished.
1. A verbal rolling/boundary notification is issued for each departure, or
2. A nonverbal rolling/boundary notification is used for each departure aircraft.
b. Observing a target whose position with respect to a fix (displayed on the video map, scribed on the map overlay, or displayed as a permanent echo) or a visual reporting point (whose range and azimuth from the radar antenna has been accurately determined and made available to the controller) corresponds with a direct position report received from an aircraft, and the observed track is consistent with the reported heading or route of flight. If a TACAN/VORTAC is located within 6,000 feet of the radar antenna, the TACAN/VORTAC may be used as a reference fix for radar identification without being displayed on the video map or map overlay.
NOTE−
1. Establishment of radar identification through use of DME position information can be complicated by the fact that some military TACANs are not collocated with frequency−paired VORs and might be separated from them by as much as 31 miles.
2. Visual reporting points used for RADAR identification are limited to those most used by pilots and whose range and azimuth have been determined by supervisory personnel.
c. Observing a target make an identifying turn or turns of 30 degrees or more, provided the following conditions are met:
NOTE−
Use of identifying turns or headings which would cause the aircraft to follow normal IFR routes or known VFR flight paths might result in misidentification. When these circumstances cannot be avoided, additional methods of identification may be necessary.
1. Except in the case of a lost aircraft, a pilot position report is received which assures you that the aircraft is within radar coverage and within the area being displayed.
2. Only one aircraft is observed making these turns.
3. For aircraft operating in accordance with an IFR clearance, you either issue a heading away from an area which will require an increased minimum IFR altitude or have the aircraft climb to the highest minimum altitude in your area of jurisdiction before you issue a heading.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
And the memo led to it getting in the book
5−6−1. APPLICATION
Vector aircraft:
a. In controlled airspace for separation, safety, noise abatement, operational advantage, confidence maneuver, or when a pilot requests.
Thanks Velocity - lots to be learned from these forums - great group.
And that's my experience, but you have to be so careful and never ever get to where you rely upon it or expect it. Years ago I was tooling along south west of Chicago on flight following and talking to Chicago Center and you could tell the controller was slammed - he should have turned me down on flight following but didn't - good guy. 10 minutes later here comes Sky Dive Chicagos Twin otter passing me 1000 feet away in a climb - big surprise there. Even better - for those of you in Cleveland - did you know they fly gliders just (literally just) south of the Cleveland class Bravo? It's a glider, they do not even have a transponder - I wonder if the Cleveland approach controller even got a primary on him.
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Well that was always in the book prior to the memo. At least it was in the book when I did ATC. I never initiated a vector to an aircraft during FF in E or G unless requested. I think the “Founding Fathers” of the .65 intended it to be a service that allowed the pilot to make that decision. Today, not so much.
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Velocity173
Love this vid.
Yes, but shouldn't it be something like "Bugsmasher 1236 advise you immediately turn right to a heading 270 - you are going to hit Mount Washington" versus "Bugsmasher 1236 turn right to a heading of 270" in the second case he could be trying to help me or he could be trying to keep me from flying over his Buddys BBQ and ruining the party.
Note, that I've never encountered controllers who are just looking out for the party, but when you start issuing instructions to FLIBs on flight following the potential exists - however remote - that you are just trying to get them out of your hair. I'm sure we are collectively a royal pain in the ass to Chicago Approach on a sunny day.
I like ATC and respect the job they do - this is really just one of those areas where a complex system reaches its bounds. I've met more dumb ass pilots than controllers.
Radar Contact
Pattern Altitude
Your a Dawg fan - I know who you are - Geaux LSU!
How'd you get to Illinois anyhow? I made that unfortunate move myself!
I'm sorry, I got ahead of my self - proposed rule making - and it's actually Midway's Class C.
I think you'll know the answer to this - are you required to keep the primary airport traffic contained in the Class B or is that more advisory?
Here we go - by the way - I think this is a great idea - anything but an airspace grab - good for GA safety on the lakefront.
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...idway-international-airport-il-public-meeting
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah. That '...advise you immediately turn...' thing is what's called a Safety Alert. Some Controllers will avoid getting into that situation and give like a 10 degree turn out yonder a few miles to get some 'green between'(targets don't merge)rather than waiting until its so close they gotta get all 'immediate' about it. But then there are some who tend to get acres of green between, which is where I think most of the complaints about it come from.
b. Aircraft Conflict/Mode C Intruder Alert. Immediately issue/initiate an alert to an aircraft if you are aware of another aircraft at an altitude that you believe places them in unsafe proximity. If feasible, offer the pilot an alternate course of action. When an alternate course of action is given, end the transmission with the word “immediately.”
PHRASEOLOGY−
TRAFFIC ALERT (call sign) (position of aircraft) ADVISE YOU TURN LEFT/RIGHT (heading),
and/or
CLIMB/DESCEND (specific altitude if appropriate) IMMEDIATELY.
EXAMPLE−
“Traffic Alert, Cessna Three Four Juliet, 12’o clock, 1 mile advise you turn left immediately.” or “Traffic Alert, Cessna Three-Four Juliet, 12’o clock, 1 mile advise you turn left and climb immediately.”