Abusive Vectoring

Palmpilot

Palmpilot

Touchdown! Greaser!
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I was coming into the Bay Area on flight following today, and after I was handed off to Norcal Approach, the controller totally wrecked my nice efficient plan for getting into my home airport. The trouble started when he told me to stop my descent at 6,500. This was followed by some vectoring, and at one point he had me pointed at a bravo sector whose floor is 6,000 while I was still being held at 6,500. I waited as long as I reasonably could for him to resolve the situation and then gave him a reminder by asking if I was cleared into the bravo, at which point he said no and turned me away from it. Later he had me restricted at 5,000 or above and didn't cancel the altitude restriction until he handed me off to the tower. This required a very rapid descent to avoid another bravo shelf with a 4,000 foot floor.

Not all TRACON controllers treat VFR aircraft like second-class citizens, but when it happens, it really makes me want to swear off flight following in major metropolitan areas altogether.
 
A Cessna 172SP. Why do you ask?
 
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Yeah, most people in the Florida “Bay Area” and “mouseville area” avoid flight following because it usually is synonymous with “remain clear of the bravo” flying. But since Covid they’ve actually gotten much better about accommodating vfr traffic. I literally was only cleared into the bravo one time pre-Covid and that was only paired with an urgent traffic avoidance heading and altitude change, and was immediately sent back out again. There are no airports inside the bravo itself, and they don’t blink twice putting you at 1000 feet over miles and miles of dense city with 500 foot towers around or bay waters.
 
Cancel flight following, then he'll have to vector the other traffic around you.
 
When they vector you it's typically to keep you away from other traffic. It's not abuse, it's keeping you and others safe, especially in the areas where jets are low and flying at "250" or "200" knots. Can't take this stuff personally, it messes with your judgement.
 
I’ve said it before, some if these new controllers just plain don’t know what they’re doing. Rarely do I get jerked around when it’s one of the more “senior” voices on the other end.

Of course you can always cancel. I did that once going through Atlanta. I was well outside of the B. The traffic (inbound airliners) were not even to remotely close to IFR wake turb standards but she kept vectoring me further away. Finally I canceled and went direct my destination.

Knoxville pulls that crap all the time. Most inefficient controllers I’ve seen.
 
One time I was flying along the ‘jersey shore on flight following and got vectored out to the ocean which I was not equipped for. I was under the KACY bravo shelf and was concerned about heading out to the ocean. As the shore got further behind me I was getting nervous the further I got. I called ATC and they forgot about me! ATC apologized, explained there we’re coast guard helicopters coming in low to KACY and immediately vectored me directly to land. As stated before in this thread the diversion was to keep me away from low and slow flying traffic.
 
I'm not sure if its true anymore, because I now refuse to get flight following near Detroit bravo, but 7 years ago, Detroit sent me so far out over Lake Erie that I resolved to never do flight following there again. Now I routinely fly UNDER Detroit Bravo in a VFR corridor...although there is a bunch of VFR traffic in the VFR corridor, with ADS-B I still feel it is MUCH safer than swimming in Lake Erie...or, I fly over the bravo when convenient...again, ADS-B makes this preferable to going way out of Lake Erie.
 
I haven't experienced "Abusive" vectoring, but have experienced "Forgetful" vectoring a couple of times. Once, flying into KPNS, the controller sent me what seemed like halfway to Cuba over the Gulf, until I reminded him that I was enroute to Pensacola, not Havana. The other time a controller at Houston Approach vectored me to hell and back, before heading me right at the Bravo without clearance. A gentle reminder from me got me the Bravo clearance, and a "direct-to" my destination.

They are human, and can become task-saturated, just like us.
 
Country Flier said:
I'm not sure if its true anymore, because I now refuse to get flight following near Detroit bravo, but 7 years ago, Detroit sent me so far out over Lake Erie that I resolved to never do flight following there again. Now I routinely fly UNDER Detroit Bravo in a VFR corridor...although there is a bunch of VFR traffic in the VFR corridor, with ADS-B I still feel it is MUCH safer than swimming in Lake Erie...or, I fly over the bravo when convenient...again, ADS-B makes this preferable to going way out of Lake Erie.
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Be sure to wave when you fly over my house (or if you see me on ADS-B (N222GN)).
upload_2022-3-27_8-49-29.png
 
kgruber said:
Controllers have not gained back the expertise/efficiency of the 12,000 controllers fired by Reagan in 1981.

It was a dark day for aviation.

Great president.....lousy decision.
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Well while that may be true, I’ve worked with controllers in the 90s that were never part of that group and were / are outstanding controllers. Complaints that I’ve heard from friends today seem to indicate what OK City has been putting out in recent years. They’re short controllers and they’re pushing these people through the system.
 
I was flying a several miles north of KASE, I was listening to approach and they called me on the radio. I should have ignored them, but I didn't. I was now flying west, below the ridge tops. They told me to be ready to accept vectors for traffic, I complied, and flew their vectors at my current altitude of about 10,500. They were vectoring me for a King Air 4 miles away and at 14,000'. I was flying the assigned vector, which in a few miles would put me right into the side of Basalt Mountain. My buddy in the right seat asked if I was going to ask for a deviation, I replied that I was going to wait a little longer to see if approach would notice that they had me on a collision course for cumulous granite. I didn't get too close to the terrain, but I called approach and said "Aspen Approach, NxxxxK, request deviation..... for terrain", I think they got the point. Now, if I get an unsolicited call on the radio, I pretend I'm not on frequency.
 
This got me to thinking of the vectoring isms I’ve heard over the years

Don’t vector until you see the whites of their eyes.
I vector, therefore I am.
Vector for controller amusement.
Yea tho I vector thru the sectors of the TRACON of death, I shall fear no pop-up, thy ARTS and thy D-side, they comfort me.
Radar is a crutch.
 
luvflyin said:
This got me to thinking of the vectoring isms I’ve heard over the years

Don’t vector until you see the whites of their eyes.
I vector, therefore I am.
Vector for controller amusement.
Yea tho I vector thru the sectors of the TRACON of death, I shall fear no pop-up, thy ARTS and thy D-side, they comfort me.
Radar is a crutch.
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what's our vector, victor
 
Palmpilot said:
I was coming into the Bay Area on flight following today, and after I was handed off to Norcal Approach, the controller totally wrecked my nice efficient plan for getting into my home airport. The trouble started when he told me to stop my descent at 6,500. This was followed by some vectoring, and at one point he had me pointed at a bravo sector whose floor is 6,000 while I was still being held at 6,500. I waited as long as I reasonably could for him to resolve the situation and then gave him a reminder by asking if I was cleared into the bravo, at which point he said no and turned me away from it. Later he had me restricted at 5,000 or above and didn't cancel the altitude restriction until he handed me off to the tower. This required a very rapid descent to avoid another bravo shelf with a 4,000 foot floor.

Not all TRACON controllers treat VFR aircraft like second-class citizens, but when it happens, it really makes me want to swear off flight following in major metropolitan areas altogether.
Click to expand...

Why not say "unable to turn to that heading without a Bravo clearance"?
 
Palmpilot said:
I was coming into the Bay Area on flight following today, and after I was handed off to Norcal Approach, the controller totally wrecked my nice efficient plan for getting into my home airport. The trouble started when he told me to stop my descent at 6,500. This was followed by some vectoring, and at one point he had me pointed at a bravo sector whose floor is 6,000 while I was still being held at 6,500. I waited as long as I reasonably could for him to resolve the situation and then gave him a reminder by asking if I was cleared into the bravo, at which point he said no and turned me away from it. Later he had me restricted at 5,000 or above and didn't cancel the altitude restriction until he handed me off to the tower. This required a very rapid descent to avoid another bravo shelf with a 4,000 foot floor.

Not all TRACON controllers treat VFR aircraft like second-class citizens, but when it happens, it really makes me want to swear off flight following in major metropolitan areas altogether.
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I'm still waiting to hear the "abusive" part.
 
eman1200 said:
what's our vector, victor
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Out yonder west is the Hector VORTAC, HEC. The Sector over there was known as the 'Hector Sector Vector Director.' Few years ago I got handed off to it and acknowledged the frequency change with "hector sector vector director,132.5." Guy was not amused. Kids these days, sheesh
 
kgruber said:
Controllers have not gained back the expertise/efficiency of the 12,000 controllers fired by Reagan in 1981.

It was a dark day for aviation.

Great president.....lousy decision.
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Forty years ago seems a little long to be blaming the quality of today's controllers on.
 
Palmpilot said:
He told me the reasons for the vectors.
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I COME HOME FROM A LONG HARD DAY OF WORK AND YOU DON’T HAVE DINNER WAITING FOR ME ON THE TABLE? THE HOUSE IS A MESS AND THE LAUNDRY’S NOT DONE?!?!! TURN RIGHT HEADING 220 AND MAINTAIN 6500!!!!

Now that’s abusive vectoring. I think. There must be a support group out there for you.

/sarcasm.


//or is it?
 
sarangan said:
Why not say "unable to turn to that heading without a Bravo clearance"?
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At the time the vector was given, the bravo shelf wasn't all that close and I didn't know he was going to forget about me.
 
Palmpilot said:
He told me the reasons for the vectors.
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Even with reasons, doesn’t mean they’re valid or efficient.

I was going through Knoxville a few weeks back at 4,500 VFR SW. Approach had a business jet on a long left base for rwy 5. They reported the field in sight for the visual out of 5,000 and ATC said to expect their clearance out of 4,000 for traffic (me). They were 8 miles off my 2 o’clock. All she had to do was clear them for the visual, monitor the situation and when she has required vertical sep (500ft) ship them to tower.

Being a former controller and flying around the NAS, I see so much poor technique and inefficient handling of aircraft. I always considered my job as a problem solver to find the most efficient way of handling a situation. Some of these controllers today just can’t visualize stuff.
 
Palmpilot said:
Holding me at altitudes that made it difficult to avoid bravo busts, not once, but twice.
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But you did the correct piloty thing to do, right? You asked and got clarification and all was well in the end?
 
eman1200 said:
I COME HOME FROM A LONG HARD DAY OF WORK AND YOU DON’T HAVE DINNER WAITING FOR ME ON THE TABLE? THE HOUSE IS A MESS AND THE LAUNDRY’S NOT DONE?!?!! TURN RIGHT HEADING 220 AND MAINTAIN 6500!!!!

Now that’s abusive vectoring. I think. There must be a support group out there for you.

/sarcasm.


//or is it?
Click to expand...
I guess you had to be there. ;)
 
I would have actually appreciated MORE vectors if it would have allowed me get down in time to avoid the near bravo busts.
 
By the way, in case it wasn't clear to anyone, this was in the SFO area.
 
Dana said:
Cancel flight following, then he'll have to vector the other traffic around you.
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Cancelling flight following has crossed my mind, but I would prefer to do it farther out, so as not to compromise safety by springing surprises on the controllers.

Filing IFR whenever I'm coming into an area that has a bravo has also crossed my mind, because it eliminates the possibility of getting busted for following an ATC instruction.
 
kgruber said:
Controllers have not gained back the expertise/efficiency of the 12,000 controllers fired by Reagan in 1981.

It was a dark day for aviation.

Great president.....lousy decision.
Click to expand...
Over 40 years ago? Hard to think that could possibly be an issue????
 
Velocity173 said:
I’ve said it before, some if these new controllers just plain don’t know what they’re doing. Rarely do I get jerked around when it’s one of the more “senior” voices on the other end.
Knoxville pulls that crap all the time. Most inefficient controllers I’ve seen.
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An irony, is that in my experience, smaller operations are worse than bigger. I get worse vectors near Austin and Waco then near Dallas.
 
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