A

JOhnH said:
Perhaps it helps decide which plane to buy. Do you want to leave a cosmetically perfect plane out in the elements? Or might you buy one that is a little weather worn instead if you know you won't have a hangar?
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So if all the hangars in my area have a multi-year wait list, I'm supposed to buy planes with extra mileage? Or just not buy for years until I can get a hangar lined up?
 
Caramon13 said:
So if all the hangars in my area have a multi-year wait list, I'm supposed to buy planes with extra mileage? Or just not buy for years until I can get a hangar lined up?
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No. You are not SUPPOSED to do anything. You can do anything you want. It is just one more factor in considering what you might buy.
Sheesh. Why do people have to be so anal about everything. It was advice, not an order.
 
JOhnH said:
No. You are not SUPPOSED to do anything. You can do anything you want. It is just one more factor in considering what you might buy.
Sheesh. Why do people have to be so anal about everything. It was advice, not an order.
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I understand that, what I don't understand is why anyone would GIVE that advice. Why should purchasing a nice plane be conditional based on hangar availability?

I've already said that hangars are a "nice to have", you guys are making it seem like it's a necessity to have a hangar or the plane is going to fall apart. It's not.

I'm not debating the usefulness of a hangar or the benefits of having one, there are many. What I'm saying is that if you want to go buy a nice plane and tie it down, do it. You may have to spend a little extra time keeping it clean and protected, but a hangar is absolutely positively NOT a requirement to owning a plane in my opinion. It's a luxury.

You shouldn't have to compromise on quality or "buy down" because you have a tie down.
 
Caramon13 said:
So if all the hangars in my area have a multi-year wait list, I'm supposed to buy planes with extra mileage? Or just not buy for years until I can get a hangar lined up?
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has nothing to do with “mileage.” There are lots of planes around that are solid and sound but have faded paint and interior that would cost less money. Then you wouldn’t pay a premium for new paint and interior that will deteriorate in the weather anyway.
 
No one is ordering you to buy down. We are trying to point out how to best use your funds. It’s a shame to see fresh paint and interior deteriorate, meaning value lost, but it’s YOUR money. Spend it wisely or waste it as you choose.
 
Actually if the hangar situation is such that you will be on a hangar list for several years, there is opportunity in the situation. If you could find the right plane which is solid, reasonable engine and prop time and a panel you like, but paint and interior that is old in the tooth, tie it down for now and when you get a hangar do the interior and paint that is YOUR creation. Take the money you save on the purchase and keep adding the hangar savings to it and you will be ready to enjoy the cosmetic Refurb when the time comes.

if you take this approach , however, make sure it is thoroughly inspected for corrosion at each annual. Water drains into nooks and crannies that are hard to see.
 
luvflyin said:
210's I think aren't insurers favorite airplane. It's going to cost more. Maybe significantly more.
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Thats the understatement of the year. 210 insurance for a low time / new pilot will be ridiculous, like $5000 a year ridiculous. Look for a nice 182 or other for now.
 
Caramon13 said:
I understand that, what I don't understand is why anyone would GIVE that advice. Why should purchasing a nice plane be conditional based on hangar availability?
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Because the OP was ASKING for advice. The availability or possibility of a hangar is ONE factor. Why is asking now rather than later so horrible? Perhaps if a hangar is impossible, that will free up funds to buy a nicer plane rather than having to budget for both.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Actually if the hangar situation is such that you will be on a hangar list for several years, there is opportunity in the situation. If you could find the right plane which is solid, reasonable engine and prop time and a panel you like, but paint and interior that is old in the tooth, tie it down for now and when you get a hangar do the interior and paint that is YOUR creation. Take the money you save on the purchase and keep adding the hangar savings to it and you will be ready to enjoy the cosmetic Refurb when the time comes.

if you take this approach , however, make sure it is thoroughly inspected for corrosion at each annual. Water drains into nooks and crannies that are hard to see.
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A plane cover will also help if tied down outside.
 
Find a reputable broker with good references,let them do the legwork. The 182 is a good choice.
 
Crashnburn said:
A plane cover will also help if tied down outside.
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For a low wing a canopy cover is a must and is an all in one easy on easy off. I use one when I travel. For a high wing you still certainly want one, but I don’t know exactly how they fit on a high wing.

The choice by the OP for a 172 for his mission is a good choice. If there were no family hauling involved, a 140 or 150 would be even a better choice. I built time in my 140 for little more than nothing as aviation prices go. Time is logged by the hour not the mile. A 172 will be a great time builder. My son in law started in a 172 and carried his family. He now has a Barron and kept the 172 as a backup and keeps it in my hangar. A 172 is a great choice.
 
frfly172 said:
Find a reputable broker with good references,let them do the legwork. The 182 is a good choice.
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I wouldn’t do that.

They have waaaay less of a interest in what you pay or get than you do.

I’ve has great luck beating brokers up on their prices when trying to help friends buy planes. I’ve also found their knowledge on said airframe super lacking and can’t answer many questions.

I’d get on the type groups on their website or Facebook groups and learn and go from there.
 
There are plenty of them around. Just find one with some engine time left and a usable panel THEN FOR SURE get a prebuy inspection by a competent mechanic who is experienced and trustworthy,
 
@Freefalling , where on the island are you? I am in the same position (minus the primary student status). I have been looking for something for my wife, dogs and I to fly around and explore the Caribbean. I talked to an insurance company here on the island that said they wouldn't insure anything more than 45 years old. that eliminates most of what we can afford. Insurance is also super expensive when people do get it. think $5,000 a year for a C172. as far as hangars go, you might find something at Arecibo, but that's all i know of. Isla Grande, I have heard, is not even taking new tie down tenants. which is unfortunate for me, if we ever get something. I haven't confirmed that though.
 
Too bad you are on the other side of the island! We were trying to find a partner, but even that has been tough
 
Hangar: it really depends on where you are. In Puerto Rico, with the trend in tropical storm activity and climate change, I'd want one (preferably a sturdy one), though if you have the flexibility to fly away for a few days whenever a storm comes up then that helps a lot. I'm not sure I'd say it's a must-have, but I'd definitely put it higher rather than lower on the list.

For me, in the US desert southwest, the summer sun is brutal and the UV will absolutely destroy rubber and plastic in short order. You get to pick between the serious hassle of covering your plane every time you park it (thoroughly, not just the windows), or replacing a lot of stuff more often than everyone else. Probably not as big an issue where you are, but still.

Of course, all of this (and also the 182 vs 210 thread) depends on your financial situation. How much is it going to stress your budget to go one way vs. another? If you have the luxury of lots and lots of cash, I think the 210 is appealing, if you have a good CFI for it that you like and who's available (because you'll need a lot of their hours). You'll pay through the nose for insurance at first, some extra for maintenance, more for the extra hours of instruction (which may be many, don't skimp), but in the end it'll do the most for you.

If you can afford it. If you can't, don't try to talk yourself into the idea that you can; that never ends well.
 
deyoung said:
If you can afford it. If you can't, don't try to talk yourself into the idea that you can; that never ends well.
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Great point right there! I'm not sure I'd say "never", but "almost never" is pretty close.
 
I know you’re looking locally. Finding one at an airport near you could minimize the problem of where to keep it. A new pilot I know in the Houston area wanted to buy a plane and keep it in a hanger. The field near him had a long wait list for hangers so he didn’t know if he’d buy.

He ended up finding out about a plane on the field that wasn’t listed as for sale but that was in a hanger and was owned by a pilot that had lost his medical. He talked with the owner, got a good deal on the plane, and was able to work things out with the airport to keep the hanger since that plane was already in that hanger. They rationalized skipping the wait list since the same plane was going to stay in the hanger.

It’s not unusual to have planes in hangers in this area that someone has stopped flying but never put up for sale. Talking to the local FBO’s, mechanics, and guys that hang around the airport can help find them.

It can be hard to talk the owner into selling the plane at a reasonable price but my friend said that when he explained his situation to the owner the owner (with encouragement from the owner’s wife) decided to make the deal because the plane was ‘going to a good home’.

It might be worth spending time walking around the hangers on a Saturday when airport folks tend to hang out.

The rules on the pre-buy don’t change. Find someone that knows the model of plane you’re trying to buy that hasn’t been the person that’s been maintaining to do the pre-buy. You need to be sure the person you have check out the plane is working for you and thinking of your best interests, not helping the owner make a sale.

gary
 
Salty environment?.. it sounds like you want a hangar if you can get one for sure.
Also, you can always throttle way back on that 182 to save some gas for building time.

172/182 either will be easy to sell if you aren't crazy over priced. And maybe even then from what I've seen lately ;)
 
Caramon13 said:
No, you don't NEED a hangar. I had a Cherokee tied down for a year here in FL and had no problems. Planes don't rot into the ground quickly without a hangar. Especially if you fly them at least a couple times a week and keep them maintained. Most rental planes spend their entire lives outside a hangar and they fly just fine.

@Freefalling beat me to it. The only reason for a hangar is extreme weather conditions, like hurricanes which (depending on your tropical island) may or may not be a problem.
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I owned a Cherokee for about 14 years, 12 of it with a hangar. Having experienced both sides, I agree that you can do it without a hangar if absolutely necessary. However, you really need to take that hangar savings and put it back into the airplane. The two years outside in hot and humid weather were harder on the plane than the other twelve combined. I had rain leaks, compass leaks, rapidly fading paint, brittle plastics, surface corrosion in odd parts, etc all in the two years outside. None of this happened when it was in a hangar. So, I would still choose to buy a plane if a hangar simply wasn’t an option, but I would also move mountains to try to get it inside as well.
 
I ran this same rabbit about a year ago and ended up with a 182. Very happy with my decision. 182's just seem to be the best value out there in a high-wing and there's a huge resale market for them. 206's although roomier are going to be harder to fly, more expensive to operate, more expensive to purchase and slightly harder to sell (because of their inherent price point). When I was looking, I scoured all the normal sources (TAP, Controller, WingSwap, Barnstormers, Craigslist, etc) nearly every day for 6 months. I joined AOPA to get the free VREF. I got very familiar with VREF value sand how engine time, airframe time and mods affected value. I made lots of calls, talked to alot of people and made quite a few lowball offers to the point the brokers were like, oh no, not this guy again. Eventually I found an owner who was selling his own plane and we worked out a reasonable deal for a good airplane. If you can get direct to an owner and keep the broker's out of the deal, you'll get a better deal. No disrespect meant to brokers (I'm one in another capacity) but their fiduciary responsibility is to their client, not you. Plus the higher the price, the higher their commission in most cases.

Personally, I had a pretty specific range of model years I wanted so that really narrowed my search parameters. If the wide-body style 182's are your fancy, I would try and find one with wet tanks (post '79 I think) so you don't have to deal with bladders. Buy as many mods as you can afford as it will be cheaper to pay someone else for stuff they have already installed rather than to pay to do it yourself. Deals in this market right now are hard to come by so all you can hope for in my mind is to get a "fair" deal.

Once you find a good plane, find a good objective third party to do a good pre-buy. Its worth the $1,500+ it will cost. Piece of mind on something you're going to entrust your family with is priceless and worth 1%-3% all day in my book.

As to the ramp vs. hangar debate, either will do while you're learning. I have kept my plane on the ramp for this first year for various reasons. Once I finish my training, I'm going to be moving to a hangar on a private grass strip. Once you get the plane and start meeting people around the airport, if you want a hangar, you can probably hustle one..... Good luck and have fun!
 
Hangars are not necessary, ignore everyone who says otherwise. They are *desirable* but not necessary. By the time the paint fades and the plane rots away someone else will own it anyway. I know that's not the prettiest way to look at it, but it's true.
 
Freefalling said:
How the heck amd i supposed to find a plane to buy
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-training / local stuff: Tiger
-grass fields / "truck" type stuff: 182
-money is no object: Cirrus
-money is an object but I want a real plane: Bonanza
-I want to be cramped but lie and tell people I'm not and brag about my fuel flow: Mooney
-I need to carry or have the load for 4-6 people: 210 or Lance/Saratog/Six (depending if you like low or high wing)
-I want Cirrus/Mooney performance but at a fraction of the cost: Experimental

..then local flyers, Google, Controller, Trade-A-Plane, etc

And there you go!
 
In your case @Freefalling take a serious look at Tigers.. they're an awesome airplane, fast, great performance.. they fly great, responsive, and it will teach you to be a much more disciplined then dump truck POS handling you get in a 172. If you ever upgrade to a more capable plane then the Tiger will prepare you much better for that than a 172
 
Just as a side note, if you do go for a Tiger, make sure the spar/bolt inspections have been done (hopefully properly) and every 500 hrs I think. The spar has a life limit as well, around 12,500.. although thought I saw somewhere that it was up to 19-20k on specific model(s).
I'm going on memory, so you may want to verify. I'm gettin old..

Keeping that in perspective though, looking at a Tiger with 8000 hrs on it, still leaves 4500 hrs. Even at 200 hrs a year, that's still over 22 years. But, you have to wonder how marketable a plane is at some point in that span.

Edit: here is the spar AD
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...c-models-aa-5-aa-5a-aa-5b-and-ag-5b-airplanes
 
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Skyrys62 said:
Just as a side note, if you do go for a Tiger, make sure the spar/bolt inspections have been done (hopefully properly) and every 500 hrs I think. The spar has a life limit as well, around 12,500.. although thought I saw somewhere that it was up to 19-20k on specific model(s).
I'm going on memory, so you may want to verify. I'm gettin old..

Keeping that in perspective though, looking at a Tiger with 8000 hrs on it, still leaves 4500 hrs. Even at 200 hrs a year, that's still over 22 years. But, you have to wonder how marketable a plane is at some point in that span.

Edit: here is the spar AD
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...c-models-aa-5-aa-5a-aa-5b-and-ag-5b-airplanes
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I thought that was a one time AD, not recurring every 500 hours.
 
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