A turbulent journey into this wonderful world of flying....

bigevil

bigevil

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bigevil
A challenging journey into this wonderful world of flying....

Forgive the venting here but I figure this community is the place to do it and also could potentially provide opinions/solutions I haven't thought of.

Like most of us on here, I've always dreamt of flying....It's been on my bucket list/lifelong goals as long as I can remember and I aside from a handful discovery flights I did a few years back at a small airport in Maryland I had always thought it was too challenging a process for me to get through. Recently though, after living in LA for about 9 years now, I decided to dip my toes back in and take a intro flight out of Van Nuys (only about 5 minutes from me). The minute I pulled up to the airport I was instantly overwhelmed with excitement and passion for getting my private pilot!!

I've read a lot of the great information on this forum and used much of the opinions here as excellent guidance for finding instructors, schools, and various study materials and have not been disappointed at all. I ended up taking a intro lesson with 4 different schools at VNY and finding the place I was most comfortable with. Additionally I jumped right into the ground schooling and got myself halfway through the prep for the written (and actually enjoyed it)...... However, I had to have a real honest conversation with myself while studying last week about if I'm rushing into this too quickly. The financial burden is massive (especially out of Van Nuys). Other areas of the country estimate the cost anywhere from 7-10k for your private and I don't see getting it in Los Angeles (other airports included) for less than 10k. While I'm not starving, it just feels irresponsible to spend that kind of money in our current economy and climate and so I regretfully decided I should probably hold off on my pursuits for now. It was a somber decision and the next few days were spent not really obliging it , I kept reading the Gleim books, watching the videos, prepping myself. It also doesn't help that I can watch 172s fly over my head all day and just wish I was up there.

Then..... late the other night I remember sport pilot. I got very excited, researched it in depth and was delighted that it appeared to offer everything I personally wanted out of flying with less than half the cost. Most of the schools I spoke to quote between 4-5k total for the average student and I figure I would dive in and be able to get closer to the lower end of that estimate thus making it attainable for me to finally become a pilot!! My plan was to get my sport before the end of the year, and then spend the next year or so building hours and eventually transition into Private. I could fly! Everything seemed perfect until yesterday....

I finally got to fly my first LSA (I flew in a SportCruiser, but also sat in a Skycatcher for a while). I have to say I couldn't have been any more disappointed. We flew out of Santa Monica into calm winds and spent the next hour getting thrown around like a paper airplane up there. The controls were overly sensitive to the point of feeling unsafe and although I love classic cockpits, I really dislike that half of the instruments are so far onto the passenger side that it makes a quick scan much harder and less effective. I literally couldn't see half of the gauges and had to ask my CFI for the values (and yes, I adjusted the seating for optimal height/view). Now, I realize that this might not be a representation of ALL LSAs, but many of the experienced pilots I talk to in this area say that while LSA is very cool, it is oft overlooked that they really don't perfect well in anything but calm, clear days. I realize that every plane flies differently, and that there will always be an adjustment when switching aircraft but after flying 172s, I just can't imagine ever feeling comfortable in one of those LSAs. From what I've heard, switching from 172s to Piper Warriors etc.... is not nearly as different as this was.

Long story short, I left the airport incredibly disappointed and deterred because it seems as if my plan to become a pilot and fly simply isn't a reality. I wrestled with the whole thing all last night and concluded that I just might not be able to realize the Private Pilot (or any level of pilot) for quite a while. I'm not writing this for sympathy, or reminders that yes, our hobby costs money, and that you can't always get what you want.... Just sharing my experience and seeing if anyone has had a similar start to their journey or has any thoughts about the whole LSA thing and also other ideas....

The silver lining however, which I do remind myself of is this;
1) I've got 7 hrs in my logbook now, if and when I start again, that will only help!(Its 7 more than most people get to fly in their lifetimes so I feel lucky.)
2) after starting and studying much of the material, I don't think prepping for the written will end up being very challenging and I look forward to it.(I even find watching the Sporty's videos very entertaining)
3) I was able to reignite my desire to realize this goal and now know exactly which school, airport, and planes I want to do it in. All of the groundwork is out of the way for when I start again (assuming the places are still in business!). Hey, I even got to take my girlfriend up for a one hour flight over her favorite part of Colorado last week while we were traveling.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts!
 
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Welcome to PoA. You'll get a lot of great advice in the following posts. (And maybe a few challenges from the more 'crusty' among us. But keep in mind we all share your passion for flight). Its very hard to justify flying financially, but I think you will hear from almost all pilots that they do not regret the journey and that it is one of the most rewarding things in their lives (me included).

P.S. Stay away from the current thread on the Designate Pilot Examiner! :)
 
Perhaps you need to the give LSA another shot (or try another) - it's just a matter of becoming comfortable.

Or move to Nebraska where I can get you done as a private pilot for a pretty affordable price. I have a student right now that has 33 hours and is basically ready for his private pilot checkride. We'll be spending the last 7 hours doing more cleanup and extra training so that he can take the checkride.
 
first off, thanks for the feedback and comments. One thing I've learned is that flying and pilots really are such a great community. its so refreshing from other groups out there....

maybe I should take another LSA flight to see if its just way different, and I need to get used to it, or if its just something I'm not personally into or comfortable with.

I'd be happy to come to Nebraska if it saves a lot! The one good thing for me is that I make my own schedule and toward the end of the year it slows down enough for me to take a couple weeks and dive in. (that was the goal until the cost appeared prohibitive).
 
Dont quit and dont give up on the lsa. If you can swing a few weeks off you can definately pull off sport pilot. There are some airports in flyover land that have lsa compliant classics for short money. Get the written done and plan a rating vacation.
 
Random thoughts:

Keep flying. Trust me, it only gets more expensive every year that you're gone.

Once bitten by the bug, you're always going to look up at everything that passes overhead and wonder how so many people never look above the horizon (or their shoes if they're introverts). Better to just go up than look up.

There are other aircraft out there that work well for Light Sport. Personally I'm not too enamored with Cessna's offering in that regard. Being that the guy who's the distributor for Gobosh runs a school here, there may be some bias, but those things have no grass growing under them at the local flight club. If you can find one, try that.

Doing Sport Pilot can be a stepping stone to Private. I know two people who've done that. They both agree it most certainly was not cheaper, but they flew consistently and enjoyed themselves all the same.

I'll add a vote for visiting Jesse. He's in a unique situation there in Nebraska where the woes of the general economy haven't hit aviation quite as hard (communities there are hurting just like everywhere else, though). I thoroughly enjoyed doing my Instrument with him. I didn't know him from Adam and had to ask around of some folks here that I thought I could trust for honest opinions and their assessments were dead-on. He's good at what he does. If you can swing a long learning-based "vacation", its really fun.

VNY has always been $$$$. I flew one summer out of there in the 90s. I don't even want to think about what it costs to fly there now.
 
Those gobosh planes do look pretty cool. I'll have to do some more research. Unfortunately it seems like there aren't any in the local area (I've only seen the skycatchers and sportcruisers).


What are your guys(and gals) thoughts on pursuing all of the written material etc... I know it seems silly but I do really enjoy learning / testing myself and I could at least get the written out of the way and figure the rest out later. Worse case scenario, I don't go forward with the license and I've learned some wonderful new stuff.


sidenote denverpilot:
I just visited my girlfriend in Denver last week and we got to fly out of your home airport, beautiful facility. It was the gents at aspen flying club who mentioned that I should consider sport pilot as the perfect bridge into private.
 
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bigevil said:
...

I finally got to fly my first LSA (I flew in a SportCruiser, but also sat in a Skycatcher for a while). I have to say I couldn't have been any more disappointed. ...
Click to expand...

Yea those are two lousy examples of aircraft, the good news is there are REAL aircraft that also qualify as LSA too!

Check out cubs, champs, etc. Most are tailwheel and require much more skill then the above mentioned planes, however they handle GREAT, are classic as can be and in the end of the day, you can get your LSA and still fly a great aircraft.
 
Turbulance does take the fun out of flying. There have been times ive had to land while on cross countries due to turbulance and wait many hrs for the atmosphere to settle down.
 
Turbulence is a fact of life. My primary CFI once related that he was hit with a microburst on takeoff in Oklahoma that made him smash his head upon the canopy well enough to become dazed. And it happened while his girlfriend was aboard, in an expensive and spiffy DA40 that he rented to impress her.

In my experience, LSAs are not all that more sensitive to turbulence. As much as I can tell, sensitivity corresponds to the wing load factor, but also to speed. So, flying proper travelling airplane, such as Mooney M20E, I noticed that pulling the throttle and reducing speed to about 110 mph indicated (below Va) makes turbulence much less sharp, out of proportion with the speed reduction. LSAs are already slow enough due to the legal restrictions on them.

P.S. If you read the NTSB summaries, then #1 cause of injuries in airliners is unexpected turbulence, and usually it's the flight attendants who suffer food carts being thrown on them. Check your seatbelts.

P.P.S. BTW, I took my tailwheel endorsement in one of those LSA-compatible antiques tht 93K mentioned above. But you definitely get thrown around in one of those too.
 
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In the mountainous areas we fly in, close to the ocean, light turbulence is an almost daily occurrence. It happens whenever the wind is blowing, and sometimes even when it isn't. Either that or the marine layer (no VFR). You have to learn to deal with it to be a pilot. It's not nearly as hard as you might think. The main things to watch for as a student pilot are forecasts for low level wind shear or moderate turbulence, and observations of wind shear within the aerodrome (on the ATIS or METAR, or preferably AWOS if available).

When you are with an instructor, especially post-solo, push your limits as much as you can, reasonably. As long as conditions are within the instructor's limits, you'll learn a ton.

There are times when it's minimized, and that's useful for early (presolo) training. Cool mornings, or "spare the air" (inversion) days. The lower atmosphere is much more stable under those conditions. Note that smooth air almost (but not quite) anticorrelates with good visibility. Those occasional beautiful winter LA days where you can see Baldy from Malibu are bumpy as heck.

For enroute turbulence avoidance, you can play with altitudes. It is seldom turbulent at all altitudes, and particularly if it's light mechanical turbulence, you can often avoid it by flying higher than the mountains. If it's thermal, find the haze layer and fly over it. That's usually possible in the semiarid climate of southern California; it may be 5000 or 8000 feet (depending on humidity).
 
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bigevil said:
sidenote denverpilot:
I just visited my girlfriend in Denver last week and we got to fly out of your home airport, beautiful facility. It was the gents at aspen flying club who mentioned that I should consider sport pilot as the perfect bridge into private.
Click to expand...

Ah. Makes sense. They're the Gobosh dealer. ;)
 
turbulence really doesn't bother me (the thread title was more metaphorical), it was more the flyability/experience of the lsa that deterred me from what I'd thought was my attainable solution.

I've been wrestling with it nonstop and still haven't made any final conclusions but my gut tells me it's just out of reach given my present circumstances. I looked into pilotfinance but after reading a really good thread on another pilots journey I think it would be better to hold off until I can pay for it without loans or major stress when the time comes.

In the meantime, nothin wrong with constantly learning and loving the hobby, reading up, studying, and gettin myself best prepared for when I can go for it.

I will certainly keep you posted on where that progress is..... Can't say enough kind things about this community
 
Dont be a *****. Plenty of ways to get this done. Www.ssa.org where to fly....
cheap youll be abetter pilot for it, and it is more fun thenmotoring around anyway. Talking yourself out of what you wantis for new age sissies. Dont be a new age sissy.
 
If you truly want to fly, then do not think about the cost. If you do, you will never fly, cause it is expensive, and on the surface is not worth it. I took a long time to get my PPL, some of it me, some of it my instructor. If you plan on getting your PPL in minimum time you may be disappointed. I was certainly on the wrong end of the Bell curve, but as I was having fun learning I was not to concerned. I did my IFR with the same instructor, and did it in 40 hrs(all airplane none was on simulators, so it would have probably been less on simulators).

Bottom line, if all you afford is a sport, then get that. You may have some limitations in what you can do and fly, but you will BE FLYING, and that is what this is all about.

As for as the written, I am not sure it matters when you take it(it has a two year expiration if I remember correctly), just be prepared for it.

Good luck, and have fun.

Doug
 
While my time in LSA is limited to about one hour, I think it's mostly a matter of what you're used to. The first time I got in a 150, after doing all my primary training in Warriors and 172s, I thought the thing was unstable and twitchy as all get out, in minimal turbulence. It's more a matter of just getting used to it, and if it's genuinely unsafe/uncomfortable, not flying right then.

As for feeling irresponsible about spending lots of money on a hobby...few of us here (or GA pilots in general) are independently wealthy. Most of us sacrifice in other areas to afford it. Many of us -- and this includes myself -- drive old cars so that we can afford to fly old airplanes. :wink2: Once we really start taking stock, most people find there are plenty of areas where they can economize, in order to afford to do something they really love doing.

Now, if it's a question of feeding your children vs taking flying lessons, you really don't have a choice. But for most people, it's not that stark. There are a gazillion ways to minimize expenses and maximize income in order to afford to fly.

And you certainly can learn to fly for less than $10k. Doing it in the middle of the country, at a rural airport, in an older plane...lots of ways to save money and still do it safely. There's a guy in Arizona, very well regarded, who provides LSA instruction in a couple Ercoupes! How cool is that?

As far as I know, we only go around once. You sound like you're perhaps a younger man, though I am guessing, since I don't think you mentioned your age. I didn't start flying until I was 49. I do regret greatly that I didn't pursue it earlier in life. I too thought I could never afford it, it would be too difficult, I had other obligations, etc. Don't do what I did.

I am in the medical profession. I have had occasion to be around plenty of people when they left this world, or discovered their time left was short. I've yet to hear anyone say they wish they would have worked more and saved more money. On the other hand, I have heard more than one of them express regret at not having done the things they really wanted to do. Don't be one of those.
 
BrianR said:
Now, if it's a question of feeding your children vs taking flying lessons, you really don't have a choice.
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Go flying, not feeding your children will make them stronger and more independent in the long run. Feeding will just make them weak and wimpy, and at least you will have a good time.:D
 
very intuitive , I am 29 yrs old and self employed. while my profession affords me the ability to be flexible with my working schedule it is unfortunately less secure than other professions and knowing what the next 12 months will being in financially is nearly impossible to predict. if i'm able to get to a place where I can set aside the funds without it causing me much stress I will dive in full throttle and after that will simply need to balance the costs of ongoing flying.

kids are not presently on the agenda.
 
(a) Is that employment situation going to change?
(b) Is flying getting any cheaper?
(c) Are you getting any younger?
 
I got my ticket a few years before LSA came out and if I were to do it again, I'd go LSA first. I did all my training in 152s (about 50 hours spread over 1.5 years). I was away from flying for a decade, but seem to always find myself around people that wanted to learn to fly, but never did. Do it. Just do it. Your certificate is for life and you may have to stop for a while (like many do), but it doesn't get cheaper by waiting. I have my dad's flight training receipt from 1978 and it was $900 (I guess he paid up front). Mine was closer about $6000 in 2001 (I know that's high for the time).

As to the LSA concerns -- I only have about 170 hours now, but 40 of those are in a SkyCatcher (mostly cross-country to boot). I absolutely love the SkyCatcher. It's useful load is disappointing, but I enjoy the heck out of it anyway. It's so peppy. I've done max gross takeoffs with the DA at about 4000 feet in the summer (field elevation is only about 400 feet) and it didn't feel sluggish at all. I look at it as a 152 with more power and responsiveness. Yes, the elevator is really light, but if you fly it with fingertips it's fine. Landings are certainly different than in 172s, but nothing that takes extraordinary skill. I'd like to get some time in more LSAs for comparison, but there's only the one SkyCatcher for rent around here.

About turbulence -- what time of day did you go? Afternoon? Over the concrete jungle? Fairly low altitude? Those are prime conditions to get bounced around. It's all about wing loading and while I do get bounced around in the SkyCatcher more in the same conditions relative to the 172s I also fly, it's not that bad. Around here, getting up to 3 or 4 thousand feet is usually enough to avoid most of it up until around lunch time. If it's summer and afternoon you have to go higher, but I climb then more for the cooler temps than to avoid the bumps. I bought my sister a discovery flight in Dallas (KADS) to try and entice her to get started (she has the bug, but also worries about the cost). She went up in a PiperSport after work in early July last year and afterward she asked me if it's always so bumpy. Cost still kept her from starting, but she was planning to go back for a Ph.D and was extra cautious about having enough to finish that program without more student loans. I did make the bug that much harder to ignore, though :) .

About the extra cost at VNY -- If you do LSA, finish the written, gather all the funds necessary, and take a "rating vacation" as Greg said. I bet you could do it in a week, or maybe two if you want a slightly slower pace. Then come back and get some additional time with an instructor to get used to the busy airspace.

Go do it.
 
Its been VERY bumpy the last few weeks here in SoCal. The air is hot and the ground generates all sorts of bumps over the hills and the city. Wait til mid October - things should cool down and the lack of strong sun will calm down the thermal turbulence.

I do agree with you on point however - flying is expensive - and you need to be able to fly often to be able to maintain not only currency but proficiency. . .
 
Re: A conflicting journey into this wonderful world of flying....

MAKG1 said:
(a) Is that employment situation going to change?
(b) Is flying getting any cheaper?
(c) Are you getting any younger?
Click to expand...

(a) hard to say, its a challenging industry climate presently and i while i most certainly don't foresee a career change, there are simply no way to create realistic income predictions past 6 months out.

(b) nope, but that is the cost of patience, its annoying but the upsides potentially outweigh the downsides of rushing and putting myself into a bind. additionally lets not forget inflation when comparing 1990s costs of learning to today. (for example, basic inflation tells us that $1521 in 1971 is the same as $9000 today) {source}

(c) not unless some medical miracle happens.


Comanche Pilot , I really didn't mind the turbulence{i've edited the title of the post!}, it was just the lsa plane itself and the way I felt it flew. that being said I should give it another shot as suggested. More importantly though, i echo your advise about needing to stay proficient and that is another great reason to hold off until i can really dive in.

madtrader, the skycatcher seems nice but I personally don't love that the one the local school has is glass cockpit, I'd love to learn on classic. Also, trying to take a friend with me to any of the airports i'd love to visit was pretty hard with the weight/balance etc....


anyway, thanks for the continued thoughts/advice.
 
Damn. I didn't want to be reminded that inflation was that bad, and I'm constantly pointing it out to people. Sigh.
 
Well you're in SoCal and life here is expensive. In fact everything is more expensive here in SoCal. In my opinion if you have to worry so much about the cost then it's not time to fly. Personally I'm not going to pursue flying until I have enough disposable income so my training can occur at least twice a week or more, and I can fly often enough to truly be proficient. I already drive old cars so I'm ahead in that respect. However I am not going to take the whole "fly once a month" route or "can I rent today?" worries.
 
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Re: A conflicting journey into this wonderful world of flying....

bigevil said:
additionally lets not forget inflation when comparing 1990s costs of learning to today. (for example, basic inflation tells us that $1521 in 1971 is the same as $9000 today) {source}
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No doubt, but the cost of aviation is outstripping inflation.

bigevil said:
madtrader, the skycatcher seems nice but I personally don't love that the one the local school has is glass cockpit, I'd love to learn on classic. Also, trying to take a friend with me to any of the airports i'd love to visit was pretty hard with the weight/balance etc....
Click to expand...

Useful load in SkyCatcher is very disappointing. I wish Cessna had stuck with the Rotax to get us another 100 pounds.
 
I personally prefer lighter controls. Having flown in aircraft where 2 fingers is more than enough to fly and having been in aircraft that took a solid grip Ill take 2 fingers all day.
 
Flying gliders can be significantly cheaper than powered GA, just to keep the license alive. Not sure how SoCal is for gliders though. In NorCal you basically have only 2 clubs, and both are way on the outskirts of Bay Area (Byron) or beyond (Hollister).
 
Dont give up if you truly have the bug you will find a way.I would try sev eral lsa aircraft and get comfortable in one and go for the lsa rating.The cost is going up so sooner is better.Although I hold an ATP rating I have 20 hrs in different lsa's and enjoy flying the lsa as much as a larger aircraft.
 
I've started studying for the written and also will have my medical done tomorrow. The goal is to get the written/medical out of the way in the next few weeks and spend the rest of the year saving/preparing to dive in and knock out the flight training! If my fiscal situation improves between now and then I'll just get to start flying sooner!
 
You check out the flight schools at KWHP? Might have some cheaper schools out there.
 
Several folks have purchased airplanes to make training more cost effective then sold after acheiving the rating. Experimental is an option too.
 
Ainokea,

I visited Vista Air @ KWHP and loved what I saw. Their instructor rates are $35/hr and they've got block rates on trainer 172s(old ones granted) at $99/hr. Also I like that they're a certified cessna training center and seem to have a wonderful selection of planes, supplies, and a great setup.

Over at KVNY I'm partial to US Aviators. Every other school there is either super expensive and trains on diamonds or cirrus and also have silly high instructor rates. Block rates for the cessna and instruction is about $10 higher(ea) BUT they're pretty easy going and seem to help people out who are willing to put in the time and really study hard on their own. Also, I live about 5 minutes from them which makes it very convienent (although whiteman isn't much further, about 15 min extra). US Aviators says they're currently averaging 45hrs to checkride for students willing to study hard and put in the extra work.


So if/when I decide to move forward those are my two choices. There are certainly pros & cons of each school but I'll just have to feel it out as it goes. Both seem optimistic that the overall cost would be closer to the 8k range instead of 10k which is nice BUT its always just an estimate.


For now, i wanna nail the written and keep my knowledge going! I'll try to take flights as I can and save up to jump it. Will keep you posted!
 
bigevil said:
US Aviators says they're currently averaging 45hrs to checkride for students willing to study hard and put in the extra work.
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That seems implausibly short. The national average is over 65 hours. You might want to ask just how many students they are talking about, and don't be too surprised if it's one, and all the other students "weren't willing to study hard."

Where you really "need the extra work" is often in stick and rudder skills. But if you get extra work, those are flight hours. So, you don't finish in minimum time....

I'm not saying this is impossible. But I would strongly suggest a second, more critical, look.
 
Something to consider... I would recommend continue your training, but find a pace that is sustainable. Don't think of it as one large lump sum expense. Look at it as a long process that you can sustain indefinitely. Many people try to rush the training (which is okay...especially if you have a career in mind) but if you are flying for a hobby, there's not really any need to rush. Even if you can only fly once every couple of weeks, just do that for now. You won't learn as quickly, but so what? Learning to fly is adopting a new lifestyle. So many pilots drop big money to get the certificate as quickly as possible, and end up rarely (if ever) flying again after they are finished. If properly managed, aviation is a hobby that is well within the reach of most middle class people who are willing to make modest sacrifices.

And I agree...45 hours seems very short as an average. However, I was able to finish in less than 50 so it is certainly possible. However, I still think that slow and steady is just fine. After all, while you are learning, you are still flying.
 
I too have been skeptical and will keep an eye on it. I don't think they're promising the world, they say it most certainly takes longer on many people but that if you're willing to work hard and come in frequently they can get it done. I'm obviously worried less about getting it done quickly and rather would learn safely and comfortably.
 
Also, it's LA airspace, with nearby mountains. Neither of those are conducive to "quick" presolo periods. Expect turbulence every afternoon, and lots and lots and lots of radio work. VNY is under the shelf of Burbank's Class C, an WHP is cut out of its surface area, so expect to either dodge it every time or talk to SoCal Approach. It's not a big deal (and it's REALLY good experience, since it will banish any issues of mic fright really early), but it does take some effort to learn.

Expect a lot of jets in the area.
 
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